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Featured JW and The Bible Ques.

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Unveiled Artist, Sep 9, 2018.

  1. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Just curious...why do you classify tradition as sacred?

    Just because some rite started eons ago, doesn't make it 'sacred', wouldn't you agree? Take the Aztecs, and their ancient human sacrificial rites. You wouldn't call that sacred, would you?

    Note what Jesus, quoting Isaiah, said @ Matthew 15:8-9....."It is useless for you to worship me, when you teach rules made up by humans." "

    Useless worship!
     
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  2. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Good question; but, I think its being religious is throwing you off.

    This year february my aunt passed away. We, a handful of us family and those out of town, came to eat at a good resturant. We swaped stories, played catch up, and when finished we headed to the cemetary where my grandmother (my aunts mother) rests.

    My aunt was cremated. We took turns taking some of her ashes and putting in on her mothers grave. A lot of us said prayers and the rest of us talked to our family member as if she was standing in front of us. It was a very emotional moment; and, I am surprised Im not still crying writing this.

    We: ate together. talked together. we shared prayers. we were in communion with each other. It wasnt just actions. It wasnt just snacking on food and throwing ashes on the grave. It was much more than that.

    Religion is no different. Tradition (like what we did) helps structure a group of people to where the origin of the practice is carried on to future generations. So, tradition would be JW going to door to door to evangalize. That, I assume, wasnt just made up. It has meaning. Its a practice. Some call it a tradition; by definition, it is. (Right?)

    When worshipers come to the lords table, they do believein their hearts and know they are with their lord. Their meal as my aunts ashes mean something more and different than JW and others accuse them of-paganism. Its like calling jesus a pagan because sharing a meal with a community is a tradition, its something that has beend one since the OT days and its done in many religions eating together in one place (just not a resturant ;) )

    While I wouldnt use sacred to define my experience with my aunt since Im not religious, when you come together as one unit and worship christ as one unit, it is sacred-worshiping christ. (Yes. I know. They arent worshiping god..but my point...) the tradition is sacred because it is a practice repeated and held important since I dont know when. That "keeping of the faith" is sacred beause god is sacred; the Church/people are sacred when they (more than one) come together in his name.

    Sacred or divine importance is applied to tradition because it is in tradition that these doctrines, the bible, the Word, etc are carried from one generation to the next. Without tradition, its all New Age.

    I dont agree. I was watching t.v. with my christian co-worker. We were watching the stone hendge and Pagans (cant remember where the Stone Hendge is) came together to watch the sun go through the hence right at the equanox. My coworker called it pagan as if it stunk of the devil. I said beautiful.

    Because religion, spirituality, culture, and tradition are all beautiful. They are all sacred. I wish I could travel the world just to experience different cultures.

    I tried puting myself in a box when I practiced Catholicism. Unfortunately, I cant see the world in black and white. Everything is divine. Everything is a part of life. Everything is sacred. How people define it or use that word is up to them.

    But, I disagree. Its sacred. I get goosebumps in all houses of worship I go to and not all of them believe in god.

    He is talking about works of men. Works of people in his righteousness is totally different. I posted a lot of scripture on the other thread on works vs. doctrine.

    Depends on what you get out of it.

    If you worship for man, of course its useless. If you do it for god, it is not.

    But you got to worship for god in order to see why tradition is so important to ones service to christ and his father.
     
  3. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    There are no such things as "ghosts". The word "ghost" does not come from the Bible, it is taken from a German word "geist". We have all heard of the word "poltergeist". According to Merriam Webster's Dictionary....."One of the tricks a poltergeist is known for is making "knocking" noises, so it will come as no surprise to learn that the word "poltergeist" translates literally from German as "knocking spirit." The German verb "poltern" means "to knock," and "Geist" is the German word for "spirit."

    But Christendom's version of a "ghost" is a person's spirit in conscious form entering another realm upon death. It is also where we get the notion of a "Holy Ghost" as a person in spirit form. This is NOT a Bible teaching. When death overtakes a "soul" they are simply dead. Nothing leaves the body except their last breath. The word "spirit" translates as "breath" in many verses.

    They have to be given new bodies in order to be resurrected. For those with a "heavenly calling", they will be given spirit bodies so that they can dwell in the presence of God....no human would survive the experience.
    Jesus promises to resurrect all the dead who are worthy...even the unrighteous ones who will undergo a period of judgment whilst learning about Jehovah. So many never got to hear the Christian message before they died in times past...they will be given that opportunity. Those who were incorrigibly wicked will never see life again because God does not count them worthy of a resurrection. He is the judge of who is wicked and who is unrighteous though.

    Its about serving the true God and loving the truth, not embracing a lie because it appeals to us personally. Satan is "the father of the lie", so anyone who loves lies are demonstrating who their god is.

    That is just the point...they are human evaluations based on what? You think personal preference determines God's will?
    Unless we base all of our beliefs on what Christ taught, holding onto a few whilst rejecting or ignoring the rest will not suffice. We have to love God with all our heart....not only a convenient portion of it. There is only one way to serve God....HIS WAY.

    There are many salvational issues....the trinity is just one of them. Can you tell me where in the Christian scriptures it describes Christian worship as liturgical? That was Jewish worship under the old covenant.....Jesus instituted a new covenant and a new way to worship God....one NOT governed by a written code, with animal sacrifices and rituals....but one now written on hearts, governed by a conscience. Sadly these days people are allowing their moral compass to point them in the wrong direction.

    When you understand that hell is simply the common grave of all mankind and that all the dead are sleeping in one enormous 'dormitory' you will understand that death is like sleeping without dreaming. No one knows how long they have slept unless they look at a clock. There is no consciousness of the passage of time because when we sleep time disappears. In the resurrection. it won't matter if someone has slept for 5 days or 5 thousand years....they will wake up just being themselves and will experience some very tearful reunions I imagine.

    That is not what is in the human heart. Most people with a good quality of life have no desire for this life to end....all they want is for the pain and suffering to end. If all our troubles were gone and we returned to the life God first offered Adam and his wife...why would we reject that? Everlasting life in paradise sounds good to me...regardless of how I get there. "That" I get there is my main concern.

    Beliefs govern your actions and thought processes. If you believe in God it will show in how you live your life and how you treat others. Non belief doesn't mean that people are automatically wicked...it just means that they are not spiritual. Some of the best humanitarians in this world are atheists. Many of them are nature lovers but not believers. Giving "Mother Nature" the credit for all that is on this planet basically denies that the Mother needed a Father to produce life. She didn't do it by herself as a series of fortunate accidents.

    You see God requires obedience from his worshippers and those with no beliefs about God are hardly going to factor in obedience to someone they don't believe exists...are they?

    Whoa....are you saying that adoptive parents do not love their children as much as if they gave birth to them? It takes more than biology to be a parent.

    We know that the Bible says that God is a spirit. The most powerful spirit in existence...one who can create matter from his energy....one who can create the sun that gives life on this planet but whose creation can harm us. (the sun for example, can blind us or burn us if we are not careful)

    "God is Love"...what does that mean? The Bible says that he has many fine qualities.....he is "merciful, gracious, slow to anger and abundant in loving kindness"...he is also just and fair in his treatment of sinners, yet his justice is not based on sentiment, but always tempered with mercy. There is only one Creator...no other being is capable of doing what he did. So no, he is not just a god among many.

    Where do you think the idea of false gods like Zeus and and Athena came from?

    Humans are made in God's image so they naturally enjoy creating. But man's creations pale into insignificance when compared to the creative abilities of Jehovah. His spirit creatures praise him as worthy of all credit....they should know, because they were there.

    "You are worthy, Jehovah, even our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created.” (Revelation 4:11)

    If you remember, it was the "traditions" of the Pharisees that Jesus said invalidated God's word. If traditions agree with the Bible, then fine, but when they negate God's word, then alarm bells should go off in our minds and hearts. (Matthew 15:3; 6-7)

    Do you know how tradition invalidates God's word?
     
    #23 Deeje, Sep 10, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2018
  4. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Ill get to this in a bit. Im strictly coming from an ignorant educational view. I dont know what the nature of a spirit is to which you object. I know there is a concept of a spirit.

    But would I need personal experience to understand what a spirit actually is?

    Its hard to understand your rejections because I dont know the specific nature of the thing youre rejecting.

    As for liturgical views, they vary. I know people talk to saints etc as real people not as disembodied floating Caspers.

    But Im not asking about accuracy and right and wrong. My morality is not near christian views. It is hard to understand you because Im picking out all the bias with a tooth pick to figure in a informational view what youre rejecting.

    Im on a tablet so its hard to address everything. Scripture helps in small spirts. If you can put them in quotes so they wont take up the whole post, that would help a bunch.
     
  5. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Wow. Really trying to tooth pick your tone of voice to get your point. Im not good with black and white views.
    My question is what is a ghost not whether there is such a thing.

    Which means?

    Whats a spirit body? and How is a spirit body different than a disebodied person?

    Tooth picking... All believers serve god. Unfortunately, they dont like the way each other does so.

    I have no clue. Rethorical question?

    Everyone has their personal preference. Whether its right or wrong its between them and god not the bible; the bible isnt an idol right?

    What is the hell you reject?

    Is it just the concept of it?

    But actions (righteous works justified in christ) arent part of salvation, right? So if no works in christ which is in the form of tradition, belief or faith means nothing.

    You asked/said what love is without truth (or something) or can love be based on a lie. Love can be based on a lie because it is independent of falsehood. Its false that the adopted parents are the biological parents of their children. That doesnt negate their love; so, love isnt based on that. Religion isnt an exception.

    What is the nature of spirit?

    Remember. Im not christian. The god of the bible as a creator that can do things reminds me of greek gods and other gods of all different cultures. Whether they are false is irrelevent (tooth picking)

    I have to go back to my comment.

    If you are refering to righteous works justified by christ carried through generation to what you practie to day, how does that invalidate gods word?

    I dont have black and white thing. Its very unattractive and I dont understand how you can (honestly) believe in a god that makes you have such negative biases.
     
  6. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    I specifically mentioned Aztecs offering up , i.e., killing, humans as sacrifices. That was their tradition, you don't agree that it was awful?! It wasn't "beautiful".
     
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  7. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    No; and, I cannot compare Amazon killing humans to Christianity worship of christ or Wiccan worship of the sun and things of that nature. Its. just. beautiful.

    Tradition does not mean Pagan or is not specific to a religion. It just means "a transmission of custom beliefs carried on from generation to generation". JW has tradition. Even my family has tradition.

    Tradition is in everything. Unless you guys just popped up in the last month, JW has tradition as well.

    What exactly do you mean by tradition and how do you connected to tradition (and JW is not)?

    ...cause it sounds like your definitions of tradition, rituals, etc are highly bias and does not reflect what these words mean to the various religions you scrutinize..
     
  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Sorry for the late reply...a bit busy lately....

    That's a shame because God is very black and white when it comes to the big issues concerning his worship. "Grey areas" only happen in the small inconsequential things. This is why God gave Israel no wriggle room in his laws.....yet they still found ways to circumvent them by adding to them. That is what the oral traditions were....a useless addition to God's firm commands which needed no interpretation. Christendom followed the same pattern as Judaism, replacing God's firm commands with their own additions.

    According to Christendom's beliefs, they have a separate, conscious part of themselves that can leave the body at death to be alive somewhere else.....in an invisible realm some would call either heaven or hell.

    Do you remember when Jesus was resurrected? What sort of body was he raised with? (2 Peter 3:18) He was raised as a spirit but his disciples saw him...how? He had the ability, like all spirit beings do, to materialize fleshly bodies. They saw an embodied spirit. You cannot see a disembodied spirit and besides Jews were forbidden to communicate with spirits (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) Angels always materialized in visible form to deliver messages to God's human servants. Jesus "appeared" to his disciples after his resurrection in physical form so as not to force them to break God's law. This kept them from being deceived by wicked spirits who after the flood of Noah's day could no longer materialize. Communication with any spirit by any means (mediums, clairvoyants, diviners or fortune tellers) was against God's law. They were NOT he spirits of the dead.

    No, I'm sorry that is a false statement....most believers only "think" that they serve God. If that were not the case, half of Jesus' teachings make no sense. His parable of the "wheat and the weeds" e.g. showed that fake Christianity was to all but choke out the "wheat", but they were not going to remove them completely. Both were to "grow together until the harvest"....so we have true Christians and fake Christians all thinking that they have the truth. Thankfully God knows the difference, even if we don't. No one is granted citizenship in his Kingdom without his say so. If we are serving the wrong God, then we are history.

    With his condemnation of the Pharisees...and his denunciation of those who thought they were Christians at the final judgment...all these thought that their worship was acceptable....yet Jesus rejected it entirely. (Matthew 23; Matthew 7:21-23)

    We all have to answer for ourselves. What use are personal preferences if they are not in line with God's? Our will has to be a reflection of God's will, just as Jesus showed.

    No, the Bible is God's instruction manual...only a fool thinks he doesn't need one. "When all else fails, read the instructions" is rather pointless if you've broken the the thing you were trying to figure out how to use.
     
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  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Yes basically. There is no immortal soul, so to teach that we have one is promoting a lie.

    Jesus said to the Pharisees...."You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie. 45 Because I, on the other hand, tell you the truth, you do not believe me."
    (John 8:44-47)

    The Pharisees were not doing God's will...they desired to do the will of their father, who wasn't Jehovah. Those hoodwinked by the devil's lies can't recognize the truth even when they hear it. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

    Who said that actions aren't part of salvation? "Faith without works is dead"....you can't have one without the other. (James 2:18; James 2:26)

    Not a good illustration of the situation IMO. If you love what satan presents as the truth, then you can't love God. You have to love God enough to sacrifice your own will to his. Its called submission and unless it takes place, we have no part in God's arrangement. (Matthew 6:33)

    You are not unacquainted with spirits are you? What do you think the nature of spirits is?

    According to the Bible there are good spirits and bad ones...the bad ones masquerade as good guys to fool people into serving the wrong god....but you won't find out the ruse until its too late. Why do you think the Bible says to have nothing to do with them? Ignore God at your peril seems to be the lesson here.

    Your choice of course. But where did the idea of false gods come from? If we all started off with just one God....how did we end up with a multitude of them? If you look at the account of the pre-flood era, you will see that there were "men of renown" (Nephilim) at that time who were gigantic, violent and licentious. They influenced the world of that time to become very wicked. Materialized angels were their fathers, so here you have the springboard for the "gods" and 'demi-gods' that satan promoted and still promotes even today.

    What righteous works did the apostate church ever carry out? Look at their history and tell me when they ever did anything "Christ-like"?
    They were wicked in the extreme, emulating their disgusting god by burning people alive at the stake...often for just possessing a Bible or for disagreeing with the churc'h' corrupt teachings......many were tortured as so called heretics, and into forced confessions to justify murdering them....there are no righteous works in the Roman Church. But it seems to be the only Christianity that you are familiar with.
    Most people raised in that system seem to be grossly ignorant of the events of their past which today still continue to see the richest church in existence failing to feed their lost sheep anything but a useless wafer.

    Shame about that. I'm afraid people should not hold their breath waiting for God to change for them.....if by the end of the present system, (which could be at any time now,) they haven't come over to Jehovah's side of the issue of sovereignty, then they will have their 'passports' cancelled and be shipped off to no man's land. There is only two outcomes for humankind according to the scriptures....everlasting life or everlasting death....there are only "sheep" or "goats"....there is nothing in between so it requires a decision....followed by actions to back that up. This is what I firmly believe.
     
  10. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I cannot follow this black and white thing. To me, every persons relationship and authenticity of it is between god and that person. At its bare minimum of defense. No one is god.

    That is why it is an idol. Its something you place inlign with god in that without it (and god) you wouldnt have a guidence for your faith.

    I dont know. I dont have personal relationship and connection with the bible. Youd have to explain it to me in laymans terms since I wasnt raised in that type of environment where spirits like casper float around and resurrected talking to people.

    What does it mean to be raised in spirit?

    Translate the bible rather than quote it.

    That is your belief. That view did kill a lot of people in history so I dont share it. To each his own, I guess.
     
  11. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Works are actions justified by christ.

    So, what works are you talking in regards to invalidating christ word (cant remember how you phrased it)?

    I dont see the connection.

    You said you can cant love something that is false. I said you can because a child can love his parents even though it is false that they are biological parents; that isnt where love is (analogy: who has the right bible and who speeks greek) it goes beyond that.

    No. I am not. You are speaking a foriegn language.

    I said works are deeds justified by christ (and those that are not are justified by law/man)

    When the bible speaks of works, it talks about two types: righteous and unrightous. One of and from god and the other from and of man.

    The Church has nothing to do with it.

    Edit: My original question didnt have to do with The Church. I put it in scriptural debates because I wanted to know how the JW bible is different than the rest of the bible when in message they say the same thing (when I cross reference them)

    As for lurtigical faiths, those based on tradition, your mind is already fixed; so, basically, unless you want to understand it from someone elses shoes, its a foregone conclusion.
     
    #31 Unveiled Artist, Sep 11, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2018
  12. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    It's a shame that you stereotype what you erroneously call the "apostate church", which defies what Jesus said about guiding his church until the end of times. It is a form of lying when you only focus on the bad deeds while virtually ignoring the good deeds, such as preaching the Word, helping with conversions to the faith, working with the poor and handicapped, etc.

    I have extensively studied the early church using sources from various historians and theologians, most of them not Catholic, and what you post above is so utterly disingenuous in so many ways. Maybe read Dr. Hanson's (Anglican) "Tradition in the Early Church" or Martin Marty's (Lutheran) "The First Christians" for starters. Even read the Wikipedia article on the history of Christianity.

    The bigotry you display with your stereotyping and then your demeaning the stereotype is appalling, and you would and have chafed when some others have stereotyped and/or misrepresented the JW's.

    One simply cannot fight dishonesty by using dishonest tactics without that being a form of hypocrisy. Over it's almost 20 centuries, the CC has made many, many mistakes, and I certainly don't defend the ones that were intentional, and I'm certain that any objective look at the history of the JW's will also find many mistakes over their history with some of them being intentional, such as with your post above. Fortunately, the CC has admitted and apologized for many of its mistakes, but what I don't see are the JW's doing the same. Instead, what I almost always see is denial upon denial, probably much like what you're likely to do with what I just wrote.
     
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  13. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Metis we have hashed this out many times before. It isn't lying to tell it like it is. Jesus himself, (as well as the apostles) foretold that the apostasy would take place and it did after the apostles died....why does the church pretend that it didn't happen? Why does the history of Roman Catholicism not scream out at people that these perpetrators of evil were not even remotely "Christian". This is the "mother" church...her daughters are like the acorns who do not fall far from the tree when it comes to false doctrine. Do the good deeds of individuals within the church cancel out the atrocities committed over centuries and the false doctrines that crept in centuries after Jesus died?

    And what "word" did they preach? Their own corrupted version of it. They burned people at the stake because of their misinterpreted teaching of hellfire. If their god could do that without compassion, then so could they.

    I have studied the Bible with many Catholic people who had personal horror stories of abuse both physical and sexual. First hand accounts of things that took place in Catholic boarding schools and orphanages. The physical abuse was often horrendous, carried out by both priests and nuns.

    This is not an attack on Catholic people who IMO have been misled for centuries by the counterpart of the first century Pharisees. The exact same thing happened in Judaism. Human tradition replaced the pure worship originally prescribed by God. Tradition also replaced the teachings of the Christ and the church ended up in exactly the same condition....incorrigible.

    I know the history of Christianity because it is written in the Bible.....but what came after was anything but "Christian". The foretold apostasy was to begin in earnest when the last of the apostles died. It was already snapping at their heels whilst they were alive, but once their 'restraining' influence was gone, and the last portion of Christian scripture penned by the apostle John was finished....nothing was going to stop those weeds from overtaking the church.

    The Inquisition undoes any suggestion that the church was anything but drunk with the power it had over the people and even over the kings of the earth at that time. God's word was carefully kept from them because ignorant people are easy to control. They could be burned alive for even possessing a Bible. What's up with that?

    Did history make these things up?

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Do you think Jesus would use instruments of torture like these....

    [​IMG]


    I do not believe that the "First Christians" had anything to do with Roman Catholicism or anything that came after it. These corrupt creatures were gathered by a pagan Emperor (centuries after Christ died) out of a lost and weakened church and the Emperor wanted to consolidate his religiously divided empire. He was not a Christian but an astute politician who basically called the shots when it came to decisions about doctrinal matters in his new state religion. The pagan celebrations and doctrines covered with a thin veneer of Christianity never became "Christianized" paganism....they became "paganized" Christianity....to this day they remain.

    Does history lie? Are these things just an invention of human imagination?

    This is not stereotyping metis...it is written history. I didn't write it.

    Is it misrepresentation or bigotry when you tell the truth about something? Where is the misrepresentation when the church presented themselves to the world this way. It was pretty public....but no one had the guts to oppose them.

    Misrepresentation is not backed up by facts...it is promoted on hearsay. There were no photographs in those days when the forced confessions and torture were being carried out by an organization that was drunk with its own power.....but we have so much testimony as part of history....you cannot compare them to the slanderous, baseless attacks on JW's. Jesus said that his disciples would be hated for the same reason he was...it wasn't just for what he said, but what he did. Is the church hated for imitating Jesus?

    Denial is a long river with many paddlers metis....we can let Jesus be the judge can't we?

    I understand your need to defend your wife's church but you must understand my need to defend Christ's Church. Catholicism was never the true church IMO. "By their fruits" Jesus said we would recognize his true disciples.....he saw rotten fruit in Judaism and we see rotten fruit in Catholicism to this day.

    What "many mistakes" do JW's need to apologise for.....seriously? When did we torture our members for disagreeing with us? Or force conversion at the point of a sword? We did only what the first Christians did. If someone disagreed and caused a public commotion about it by slandering the brotherhood.....they were simply excommunicated. Catholicism was not content with that, though, was it?

    If you accuse me of wearing rose colored glasses, then perhaps you are wearing them too with regard to the conduct of the Roman Catholic Church. It may have changed its ways but not its teachings.

    I saw on TV the other night that Notre Dame Cathedral is falling to pieces because of lack of maintenance. Parts of it are crumbling and they have been asking the Vatican for funds for some time to do the much needed repairs, but they refuse to give them any. A famous, centuries old cathedral dedicated to their "Lady", and the richest religious organization on earth can't find the money to maintain it? Makes you wonder, doesn't it? :shrug:
     
  14. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    A long list of specific beliefs in order to get to heaven and be with God. The supposed obviousness of these things as factual. This is not reasonable.

    Non believers are honest in their non belief.

    Belief is not reasonable to be required from everyday people in this particular reality of planet Earth.

    What evidences itself in reality that anything in the Bible is true?

    Truth to be truth must be very simple, and very basic so that a child can understand it is so.

    Extensive study of the Bible to get to heaven, to know its even true and real is a lot to swallow, and very much way out of bounds of being rational.

    Not to mention that the stories only sound like pure fantasy. No literal historical evidence for it all. And its very reasonable to dismiss the book as human imagination. It doesnt reveal anything to my heart or mind.

    Salvation as a game of study and believe is nonsense. And i suppose if i do not study, i couldnt possibly believe.

    I can not see myself subjecting myself to it anymore than i already have.

    Salvation, the great needle in a haystack. I dont buy it.
     
  15. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    I'm going to keep this short.
    But it is "bigotry" when you only point out the negative. It would be like me only telling all here about the things you've done wrong all your life (if I knew them) but never mentioning any of the things you did right.

    But he said that he would "guide the Church until the end of time" and that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it", did he not? So, which church could that be? Certainly not the JWs. And the Holy Spirit was also provided to help guide the individual and the Church, right?

    Oh, just a reminder of which Church chose the canon of the Bible that is commonly used, including in your organization If the Church was so "evil", why are you using the canon they selected, especially since there were roughly a thousand texts to chose from, according to historians?

    Yes, there's been atrocities, no doubt, and I certainly don't make excuses for them. However, what you are omitting is that the Church has admitted as such and has asked for forgiveness. You do believe in forgiveness, right?

    Why would you jump to the conclusion even though you obviously have not read the book?

    Now that's another one of your bold-faced lies as I have mentioned at least a couple of times before when you made such a dishonest charge that this is not and was not my motivation. Have you no shame, Deeje???

    Again, proof that you cannot admit that there has been some "issues" within the JW ranks, as one of my former neighbors who was in the JW's had happened to experience and thus left. You've taken the "holier-than-Thou position" again in regards to your organization, not admitting to any problems, thus negating the obvious fact that people sin, and the last time I heard JW's are people.
     
  16. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Here's that history that you clearly know so little about, and just a reminder that this is not from a Catholic source: History of Christianity - Wikipedia

    As we've covered before, the reality is that you claim the Catholic Church ("Roman" was added much later when other churches merged with it) wasn't the "true church", and yet you cannot provide one ounce of evidence to support your claim or answer the question "Then which church was it?" if it wasn't the CC? Please provide the name and the evidence to that "one body" as Paul said it was. A reminder that "ecclesia" (church) is an "assembly", not a belief.

    But let's move on to another aspect of this, namely your concept that the JW's teach the Bible as it is. Let me ask you these questions:
    Do the JW's greet each other with a "holy kiss"?

    Do the JW women keep their heads covered in public?

    Are the JW women "silent" during a service?

    Are the JW women not teaching men?

    Do the JW women only wear simple clothing and not wear make-up?

    Do the JW's choose their leaders by "lot"?

    Etc.

    All of the above are found in the NT, and I assume you can find these verses on your own, but why don't the JW's follow these Biblical teachings if they supposedly so much believe in the Bible?
     
  17. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    :D me too.....LOL

    When I look at the foundations of the Catholic Church, I'm afraid that I don't see much good. We are not talking about an organization that briefly went off the rails and then repented metis....we are talking about 1500 years of tyranny and the abuse of power resulting in shocking atrocities and human rights violations. How does the church claim to represent the Christ on earth, and then misrepresent him so abysmally for so many centuries? Was physical, mental and sexual abuse rife for all that time? It appears so.

    Actually, Jesus said that he would guide his faithful disciples in following his teachings, guiding and supporting them till the end. (Matthew 28:19-20)
    How many brave souls dared to expose the Catholic church for their corrupt practices? They imitated their Master by speaking up and the church responded by emulating the Pharisees....they had them put to death. These are the true martyrs....like Jesus killed by men of their own faith.

    History repeats because human nature does not change. Power corrupts, which is why there was never any one with person with power in the first century church. Positions of oversight were positions of service and responsibility with accountability first to God and to Christ and then to the brotherhood.

    The power gained by the leaders of an apostate church made them accountable to no one. They were a law unto themselves.

    If you refer to Jesus' parable of the wheat and the weeds, you will see what he said about the true Christian "wheat" and the "weeds" of fake Christianity sown by the devil. Both were to "grow together" until the harvest. So how would they "grow together" in a corrupted church? In the same way that the "lost sheep" were still part of corrupted Judaism. It was the only religious organization that possessed God's word and claimed to teach it. When Jesus came the first time, he exposed the leaders of that organization as hypocritical frauds who completely misrepresented their God.....and he rescued those lost sheep and freed them from that corrupt system.

    It was going to happen again when Jesus returned. We believe that he has been ruling as king now since 1914. We see these last days are now very close to their end, so we have done what Jesus commanded and 'preached about God's kingdom' and will continue until God indicates that it is time to stop. (Matthew 24:14) Only he knows when the end will come. (Matthew 24:36-39)

    You do realize that the church did not write a single word of scripture, but simply compiled what was already written under God's inspiration. It is God's word, not the product of any church. And it might be noted that it included apocryphal works which were rejected by those who rejected Catholicism. The Bible used today by most people does not include those works...and for good reason.

    According to the Bible, forgiveness comes only with repentance.
    The atrocities are only one part of the corruption.....the teachings are the other. Since Jesus said that his disciples would teach what he taught, then the church has a long way to go in fixing what they don't think is broken. Or repenting, when they do not recognize the God dishonoring errors in their doctrines.

    Metis, I can see no other reason to defend such a poor excuse for the practice of "Christianity". If we are being honest, the Catholic Church is an extreme example of the "weeds" that Jesus himself foretold. "The church" is a product of the apostasy that he told us would come. The church seems to deny that it ever happened....and of course it had nothing to do with them. o_O

    Well, defectors are nothing new. One of Jesus' own apostles ended up betraying him. When people have "issues" in our ranks, I can assure you that measures are taken to resolve them peacefully. But not everyone can accept the direction given by the elders however. That is their choice. If your neighbors left, then they were free to go. Justification can be a powerful motive for leaving, feeling that "on principle" they can take their stand....but are the issues "justified" in God's eyes?.....that is the question.

    If you leave the brotherhood, where do you go? Back to Christendom? Not if you are honest.
    Can you be a Christian without a brotherhood? I don't see how. So this is why there are so many disgruntled ex-JW's......there is nowhere to go and if you burn your bridges, pride makes the situation even more difficult. How much better to humbly commit the problem to God and allow him to fix it. He always does, but sometimes it's not in the way we expected. Some people just have to be "right" and will sacrifice everything to justify themselves. What is the point really? What do they end up with?

    Indeed. When you have imperfect humans in any organization, then how can we expect that problems will not occur? It's got nothing to do with "holier-than-thou"....it's about how you deal with "issues" when they arise. We deal with deliberate violations of God's laws in the same way as the first Christians did. (1 Corinthians 5:9-13) Can Catholicism say the same?

    How does the Catholic Church deal with law breakers today? Is it just a matter of fessing up in a box to a priest and receiving absolution? Are they then free to go and commit the same sin and then sit in the box again? Where will I find that arrangement in the Bible?
    They have gone from the sublime to the ridiculous! From extreme punishment to no discipline at all.

    If war was declared between nations that have Catholics (or any other denomination) on both sides (as they did in the 2 world wars) would I see Catholics and others killing their own brothers because of a political divide? Is that what Jesus taught? Would I find JW's in the armed forces killing their own brothers when Jesus said we must 'love our enemies'? Can your brother ever be your enemy?

    As I see it, there are "Christians" and there are those claiming to be "Christians"....I have no doubt that such people exist even in my own brotherhood, but thankfully they are in the minority. It isn't what we call ourselves....it's how God sees us that matters. True?
     
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  18. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Now you are basically calling me a liar as I had already explained to you why I sometimes defend the CC, much like I have at times defended Judaism, Islam, and even your own JW's!

    It is truly pathetic that you resort to this level of dishonesty just to try and score some sort of "points" in your little disingenuous game. An honest person would not make such a charge without first asking, and this is not the first time you've done this, nor is it the first time that I have had to explain to you that what you assert above is nor was my motive. Frankly, I think you're an embarrassment to the JW community when you use tactics like this.

    So, who do we blame for this: you or your JW teachers? Who taught you that "bearing false witness" is right and proper, or did you just develop that "theology" on your own? What you are doing is simply disgusting, and this is not the only area whereas you fabricate lie after lie after lie. The CC has its faults, and I have never defended them for those, but at least try and tell the truth, will ya?!

    Maybe it's time to look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself if maybe it's time to repent-- not to me, but to Jehovah.

    Meanwhile, we're done.
     
  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I am truly sorry that you take things so personally metis. My discussions on these boards is me expressing my thoughts, opinions and beliefs about a range of Bible related subjects like everyone else. Some people who post on these forums seem to be looking for excuses to become offended, almost like they get somehow mortally wounded over words. You have consistently called me a liar to my face for quite some time....do you see me getting all bent out of shape over it? I have never called you a liar metis...not once. I think it is you who should be embarrassed for these out of proportion outbursts.

    This is an anonymous internet forum where very differing views are expressed. Me saying "I can see no other reason" to defend what I consider to be one of the worst examples of fake Christianity on the planet, is just me telling the truth as I see it.

    Hang on.....I just noticed that you have changed your "religion" again....so are you fully Catholic now? Just trying to figure out your position. So, its your own religion you are defending now...right?

    I really feel you need to rethink your own responses and put your feelings into perspective. "If you can't take the heat....." you know the rest.

    Your exchanges with me always end badly...yet you keep coming back for more.....are you asking for an excuse to be offended? Apparently its not difficult with you, and I am not good at tip-toeing around people's personal sensitivities. If I offend you so much then put me on ignore.....please.

    Now I'm done.
     
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