JW and The Bible Ques.

[Unveiled Artist]

When I read the bible and listen (and read) about JW points and scripture, I agrees on the accuracy of their interpretation. The explanation of them is well rounded and I can cross reference this in the Catholic and protestant bibles. Yet, when I look dictionet there is so much stuff against JW to really decipher anything.

What main contradictory beliefs such as trinity (don't know other than trinity differences) that that the JW bible has other bibles misinterpret?

What exactly about the English translation of scripture itself differ than other denominations

Specific scripture rather than just belief. I should have put this on scriptural debates. Off to work!

Edited

 

[Brickjectivity]

***Mod: moved to scriptural debates***

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Let's go, Unveiled Artist!

Ask us anything in Scripture....I can guarantee you, my answer will agree w/ @Deeje , @nPeace , @URAVIP2ME , or any other Witness on here.

And we do differ from mainstream Christendom in a lot of Scriptural areas!

 

[Deeje]

@Unveiled Artist there is a central core of beliefs that all the churches in Christendom hold in common.....the trinity is their major departure from the Bible's portrayal of the relationship of the Father and his son. The Jews had no such belief. And since Jesus was Jewish, the question has to be....where did this idea come from?

The second would be the idea of an immortal soul...again, the Jews had no such teaching. It fights with the Bible's teaching of a resurrection...something Jews counted on under Messiah's kingdom. Resurrection in the church is completely different to what Jesus taught.

The other main one is the existence of a place of fiery torment for wicked souls after death. Again, not a Jewish teaching.

Other deviations involve baptism and what it means. And at what age it should take place.

The Christian view of morality.....i.e. sex outside of scriptural marriage....and what constitutes a scriptural marriage.

A Christian's view of political involvement, including their participation in politically motivated bloodshed.

The use of images and icons in worship.

Participation in false religious festivals which have been 'rebranded' as "Christian" celebrations.

These are just some of the differences.

We can discuss them, and the scriptural basis for our position, separately if you wish.....

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@Unveiled Artist there is a central core of beliefs that all the churches in Christendom hold in common.....the trinity is their major departure from the Bible's portrayal of the relationship of the Father and his son. The Jews had no such belief. And since Jesus was Jewish, the question has to be....where did this idea come from?

The second would be the idea of an immortal soul...again, the Jews had no such teaching. It fights with the Bible's teaching of a resurrection...something Jews counted on under Messiah's kingdom. Resurrection in the church is completely different to what Jesus taught.

The other main one is the existence of a place of fiery torment for wicked souls after death. Again, not a Jewish teaching.

Other deviations involve baptism and what it means. And at what age it should take place.

The Christian view of morality.....i.e. sex outside of scriptural marriage....and what constitutes a scriptural marriage.

A Christian's view of political involvement, including their participation in politically motivated bloodshed.

The use of images and icons in worship.

Participation in false religious festivals which have been 'rebranded' as "Christian" celebrations.

These are just some of the differences.

We can discuss them, and the scriptural basis for our position, separately if you wish.....

Ill read ina bit.

I was asking the difference in JW bible and Catholic and Protestant english translations since I can varify what you say of JW beliefs in the other bibles.

What makes them different when their bible supports your statements? (Talking about their scripture. I agree on the logic of many JW statements and scriptures; just, their source doesnt look different than the source you are refuting)

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Ill read ina bit.

I was asking the difference in JW bible and Catholic and Protestant english translations since I can varify what you say of JW beliefs in the other bibles.

What makes them different when their bible supports your statements? (Talking about their scripture. I agree on the logic of many JW statements and scriptures; just, their source doesnt look different than the source you are refuting)

Hell = Sheol = Hades = the Grave is a good subject to start with, in comparing different versions', i.e., bibles', phrasing. I like BibleHub.com, to provide a rounded-out understanding of the meaning....usually.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hell = Sheol = Hades = the Grave is a good subject to start with, in comparing different versions', i.e., bibles', phrasing. I like BibleHub.com, to provide a rounded-out understanding of the meaning....usually.

Do you have the scripture versus between the two?

I havent read the JW Bible and dont know too much of the greek wordings.

 

[Deeje]

Do you have the scripture versus between the two?

I havent read the JW Bible and dont know too much of the greek wordings.

Try.....Biblegateway.com
This site allows you to compare translations. It's one I use myself.

Choose the topic and we can explore them one at a time....

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Try.....Biblegateway.com
This site allows you to compare translations. It's one I use myself.

Choose the topic and we can explore them one at a time....

I cant think of any that would differ between two biblical versions base on message and context. I know what JW and Catholic (for example) distaste about each others doctrines but when I honestly dont know which scripture in the JW bible thats different than what Catholics and protestants use regardless what both believers interpret it.

Immortal soul. Are there different interpretations in both JW and Catholic or protestant scriptures or are there interpretations different regardless the english translation of their bibles?

What verses in the Christiandom bible (I'll say christian to keep it short) thats different than the JW bible in regards to the immortal soul?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Oh. I cant find New World Translation on Bible Gateway.

Edit. Got it on the JW site.

 

[Deeje]

Immortal soul. Are there different interpretations in both JW and Catholic or protestant scriptures or are there interpretations different regardless the english translation of their bibles?

What verses in the Christiandom bible (I'll say christian to keep it short) thats different than the JW bible in regards to the immortal soul?

OK, lets see what the Bible says about the "soul".....

Leviticus 23:30....Catholic Douay.
"And every soul that shall do any work, the same will I destroy from among his people."

NWT..."And I will destroy from among his people every person (soul) who does any sort of work on this day."

Jewish Tanakh..."And any person who performs any work on that very day I will destroy that person from amidst its people."

The Tanakh recognizes what the NWT does....that "souls" are the people....the living, breathing mortal person.

Or how about Ezekiel 18:4 ?

Catholic Douay...."Behold all souls are mine: as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, the same shall die."

NWT..."Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so also the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul who sins is the one who will die."

Tanakh..."Behold, all souls are Mine. Like the soul of the father, like the soul of the son they are Mine; the soul that sins, it shall die."

"Soul" is translated in all these versions...its the same word.

When you see how the Catholic Douay translates the word "soul" (nephesh) in these verses, I wonder how they reconcile that with their idea that a soul is immortal? Something that is immortal cannot die or be destroyed. It literally means "the power of an indestructible life".

That is the sort of thing I mean.....its not the words themselves that cause confusion, but the way the church translates them and interprets them....and then passes their errors onto their flocks. Christendom has joined them in this error.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

OK, lets see what the Bible says about the "soul".....

Leviticus 23:30....Catholic Douay.
"And every soul that shall do any work, the same will I destroy from among his people."

NWT..."And I will destroy from among his people every person (soul) who does any sort of work on this day."

Jewish Tanakh..."And any person who performs any work on that very day I will destroy that person from amidst its people."

The Tanakh recognizes that the NWT does....that "souls" are the people....the living, breathing mortal person.

Or how about Ezekiel 18:4 ?

Catholic Douay...."Behold all souls are mine: as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, the same shall die."

NWT..."Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so also the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul who sins is the one who will die."

Tanakh..."Behold, all souls are Mine. Like the soul of the father, like the soul of the son they are Mine; the soul that sins, it shall die."

"Soul" is translated in all these versions...its the same word.

When you see how the Catholic Douay translates the word "soul" (nephesh) in these verses, I wonder how they reconcile that with their idea that a soul is immortal? Something that is immortal cannot die or be destroyed. It literally means "the power of an indestructible life".

That is the sort of thing I mean.....its not the words themselves that cause confusion, but the way the church translates them and interprets them....and then passes their errors onto their flocks. Christendom has joined them in this error.

Thank you. The Catholic version most likely means the same. That would mean you are rejecting the interpretations of christians and no their scripure?

Theyre going against their own scriptures?

 

[Deeje]

Thank you. The Catholic version most likely means the same. That would mean you are rejecting the interpretations of christians and no their scripure?

Theyre going against their own scriptures?

You can see it, can't you? To teach that souls are immortal and then ignore the scriptures that say that they can die, is pure doctrinal bias at work.
It is plugging false doctrines whilst your own Bible translation disagrees with your doctrine.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You can see it, can't you? To teach that souls are immortal and then ignore the scriptures that say that they can die, is pure doctrinal bias at work.
It is plugging false doctrines whilst your own Bible translation disagrees with your doctrine.

That would make a whole lot of people protestants and catholics (Roman, Othorodox, Greek, etc) how you define them biblical wrong.

But then, to me, the relationship with god is more powerful than accuracy of interpetation. So, its judging a persons salvation.

What exactly is an soul according to christians?

I figure its the same as how they define deity or spirit of god in mystic terms. Actually, better new question for me, how do you define deity?

What is a god or the definition of him?
Does he have a definition?

(Youd have to translate the bible. Its not spiritually as-is)

 

[Deeje]

That would make a whole lot of people protestants and catholics (Roman, Othorodox, Greek, etc) how you define them biblical wrong.

Is it right to be wrong? Is there an excuse to be wrong?

Is it OK to teach things that are not true? Think of the things that are attached to this belief that souls go on living.....people believe that their loved ones are in heaven watching over them.....but the Bible says they aren't. When things happen that are tragic, who do they blame?

Think of those who imagine their family member being tortured in the flames of hell for all eternity? What a nightmare! But it isn't true.

All those who enter the grave...stay there until it is time for the resurrection.....that is what Jesus taught. Look up the account of the raising of Jesus' friend Lazarus. Where did Jesus say he was?.......He said he was "sleeping". (John 11:11-14) He wasn't in some other place conscious of what was going on. Jesus woke him from a sleep-like state and returned him to his family. If he had gone somewhere better, what was the point of bringing him back to the troubles of this life, only to die again?

How does the Douay translate that passage...?

"These things he said; and after that he said to them: Lazarus our friend sleepeth; but I go that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 His disciples therefore said: Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 But Jesus spoke of his death; and they thought that he spoke of the repose of sleep.
14 Then therefore Jesus said to them plainly: Lazarus is dead."

Lazarus was not in heaven....he was "asleep" and Jesus was going to wake him up. That is what a resurrection is.

But then, to me, the relationship with god is more powerful than accuracy of interpetation. So, its judging a persons salvation.

We each determine our own salvation by what we believe....who we believe....and how we live each day of our lives. Did Jesus teach things that weren't true? He worshipped the God of truth, so falsehood is not going to earn brownie points for anyone. If we don't love the truth, we may lose our salvation....satan wins!

The Apostle Paul spoke of those under satan's influence, with..."every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12)

You can't love what is not truth.

What exactly is an soul according to christians?

Humans and animals are called "souls" in the Bible. They are living, breathing, mortal creatures. "Souls" are never spoken of as disembodied after death. For humans, what is resurrected is given a body. For those who will rule with Christ in his Kingdom, it will be a spirit body like Christ's. For those who will be their subjects on earth, it will be a body of flesh. We don't get to choose which....God does, that way there are no mistakes.

I figure its the same as how they define deity or spirit of god in mystic terms. Actually, better new question for me, how do you define deity?

What is a god or the definition of him?
Does he have a definition?

We can only discern who and what God is from the glimpses we get in the Bible. Prophets often had visions of God's heavenly arrangement with beings who all serve him in various capacities.
God is described as "a spirit" who lives in a realm that is outside of the material universe. He is attended by angels who carry out his will as they are directed. His power (or holy spirit) can be sent where ever he wills it to accomplish his purpose.

Jehovah is the Creator of all things and invites us to worship him...but not against our will. He forces no one to comply with his wishes because he wants us to love him and serve him out of a willing heart. He knows exactly who is 'in sinc' with his will....and who is not.

(Youd have to translate the bible. Its not spiritually as-is)

We are very happy with the way the NWT translates scripture. Though we can use any Bible to gain the Christian message. As you saw...its not the words per se....its the translation and the bias demonstrated in the interpretation of the words. Forcing the words to fit a doctrine is not teaching the truth.

The truth is there in the scriptures, but like buried treasure, it takes work to dig for it....a most rewarding exercise.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Is it right to be wrong? Is there an excuse to be wrong?

Is it OK to teach things that are not true? Think of the things that are attached to this belief that souls go on living.....people believe that their loved ones are in heaven watching over them.....but the Bible says they aren't. When things happen that are tragic, who do they blame?

Think of those who imagine their family member being tortured in the flames of hell for all eternity? What a nightmare! But it isn't true.

All those who enter the grave...stay there until it is time for the resurrection.....that is what Jesus taught. Look up the account of the raising of Jesus' friend Lazarus. Where did Jesus say he was?.......He said he was "sleeping". (John 11:11-14) He wasn't in some other place conscious of what was going on. Jesus woke him from a sleep-like state and returned him to his family. If he had gone somewhere better, what was the point of bringing him back to the troubles of this life, only to die again?

How does the Douay translate that passage...?

"These things he said; and after that he said to them: Lazarus our friend sleepeth; but I go that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 His disciples therefore said: Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 But Jesus spoke of his death; and they thought that he spoke of the repose of sleep.
14 Then therefore Jesus said to them plainly: Lazarus is dead."

Lazarus was not in heaven....he was "asleep" and Jesus was going to wake him up. That is what a resurrection is.




We each determine our own salvation by what we believe....who we believe....and how we live each day of our lives. Did Jesus teach things that weren't true? He worshipped the God of truth, so falsehood is not going to earn brownie points for anyone. If we don't love the truth, we may lose our salvation....satan wins!

The Apostle Paul spoke of those under satan's influence, with..."every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12)

You can't love what is not truth.



Humans and animals are called "souls" in the Bible. They are living, breathing, mortal creatures. "Souls" are never spoken of as disembodied after death. For humans, what is resurrected is given a body. For those who will rule with Christ in his Kingdom, it will be a spirit body like Christ's. For those who will be their subjects on earth, it will be a body of flesh. We don't get to choose which....God does, that way there are no mistakes.



We can only discern who and what God is from the glimpses we get in the Bible. Prophets often had visions of God's heavenly arrangement with beings who all serve him in various capacities.
God is described as "a spirit" who lives in a realm that is outside of the material universe. He is attended by angels who carry out his will as they are directed. His power (or holy spirit) can be sent where ever he wills it to accomplish his purpose.

Jehovah is the Creator of all things and invites us to worship him...but not against our will. He forces no one to comply with his wishes because he wants us to love him and serve him out of a willing heart. He knows exactly who is 'in sinc' with his will....and who is not.



We are very happy with the way the NWT translates scripture. Though we can use any Bible to gain the Christian message. As you saw...its not the words per se....its the translation and the bias demonstrated in the interpretation of the words. Forcing the words to fit a doctrine is not teaching the truth.

The truth is there in the scriptures, but like buried treasure, it takes work to dig for it....a most rewarding exercise.

It's early so I'll come back. What's a disembodied soul?

 

[Deeje]

It's early so I'll come back. What's a disembodied soul?

"Disembodied" is what it suggests.....a conscious 'person' without a physical body. The only entities who can exist without a physical body are angels. There is no mention of the spirits of the dead becoming 'disembodied' when they die.

There is mention of humans being given a spiritual body in order to go to heaven to rule with Jesus, but this was not to happen until Jesus returned to take them to the place he had prepared for them.

My bedtime now.....

 

[Unveiled Artist]

"Disembodied" is what it suggests.....a conscious 'person' without a physical body.

Like Casper?

There is mention of humans being given a spiritual body in order to go to heaven to rule with Jesus, but this was not to happen until Jesus returned to take them to the place he had prepared for them.

I did read somewhere in revelations that believers who serve god will be given knew bodies and sit above the Angels. What are spiritual bodies, I don't know.

My bedtime now.....

Just got back think I may take me a nap myself.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Is it right to be wrong? Is there an excuse to be wrong?

Guess it depends. Unless it hurts myself or someone else, if my experience is for my wellbeing, right or wrong doesnt matter so much as benefit or consequence.

Is it OK to teach things that are not true? Think of the things that are attached to this belief that souls go on living.....people believe that their loved ones are in heaven watching over them.....but the Bible says they aren't. When things happen that are tragic, who do they blame?

Thing is. Both sides have different points of view. The Liturgical Churches (Ill use for liturgical churches protestant and catholic to keep it simple and less bias) depend a lot on tradition. Its not a bible-only thing because when you experience (not read) god, it goes beyond which language and translation the bible is written in. If one experiences god through and by name of christ, why would their salvation be dictated by how they translate scripture....

Even moreso, if a anti-liturgical person have never experienced christ through things one does, that doesnt mean the other is wrong. Its highly personal preference. Some are more new age about it, others are hardcore dicpline.

The only conflition in regards to salvation between liturgical churches and JW is the trinity. Outside the trinity, it is not a salvational issue.

Think of those who imagine their family member being tortured in the flames of hell for all eternity? What a nightmare! But it isn't true.

Yeah. Some beliefs, when pushed on people, do indoctrinate one to think their family members burn in hell. I would say separation from god would be worse than hell; but, I dont know what a disembodied spirit is that can experience hell in any non-human sense of the word.

All those who enter the grave...stay there until it is time for the resurrection.....that is what Jesus taught. Look up the account of the raising of Jesus' friend Lazarus. Where did Jesus say he was?.......He said he was "sleeping". (John 11:11-14) He wasn't in some other place conscious of what was going on. Jesus woke him from a sleep-like state and returned him to his family. If he had gone somewhere better, what was the point of bringing him back to the troubles of this life, only to die again?

How does the Douay translate that passage...?

"These things he said; and after that he said to them: Lazarus our friend sleepeth; but I go that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 His disciples therefore said: Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 But Jesus spoke of his death; and they thought that he spoke of the repose of sleep.
14 Then therefore Jesus said to them plainly: Lazarus is dead."

Lazarus was not in heaven....he was "asleep" and Jesus was going to wake him up. That is what a resurrection is.

I dont have questions about which is right hell or permanant death. Im on the lines of...we are dead. thats it. no revival to a new earth, heaven, or so have you. Close I get is rebirth where we come back (hard to describe) until we reach the state of actual death.

We each determine our own salvation by what we believe....who we believe....and how we live each day of our lives. Did Jesus teach things that weren't true? He worshipped the God of truth, so falsehood is not going to earn brownie points for anyone. If we don't love the truth, we may lose our salvation....satan wins!

How does belief save you?

The Apostle Paul spoke of those under satan's influence, with..."every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness." (

You can't love what is not truth

You can. Love isnt dependent on whats false. Many adopted children believe their parents are their real parents. There is love even though it is false. Religion is no different.

Humans and animals are called "souls" in the Bible. They are living, breathing, mortal creatures. "Souls" are never spoken of as disembodied after death. For humans, what is resurrected is given a body. For those who will rule with Christ in his Kingdom, it will be a spirit body like Christ's. For those who will be their subjects on earth, it will be a body of flesh. We don't get to choose which....God does, that way there are no mistakes.

Is a disembodied soul like casper?

(Can it be described so Id understand what exactly you are rejecting?)

We can only discern who and what God is from the glimpses we get in the Bible. Prophets often had visions of God's heavenly arrangement with beings who all serve him in various capacities.

God is described as "a spirit" who lives in a realm that is outside of the material universe. He is attended by angels who carry out his will as they are directed. His power (or holy spirit) can be sent where ever he wills it to accomplish his purpose.

What is a god, though?

Some say he Is love. Some say a deity (when I think deity, I think Zues and Athena and other Greek and Roman gods). Some a abstract force. Depends, really. The bible isnt specific to gods nature just his attributes. (No one has seen his face) type of thing.

Jehovah is the Creator of all things and invites us to worship him...but not against our will. He forces no one to comply with his wishes because he wants us to love him and serve him out of a willing heart. He knows exactly who is 'in sinc' with his will....and who is not.

What is "he" though?

Anyone can be a creator. I create art all the time. What is a spirit to which this creator gets more attention than any other?

What about him being a creator deserves your worship?

We are very happy with the way the NWT translates scripture. Though we can use any Bible to gain the Christian message. As you saw...its not the words per se....its the translation and the bias demonstrated in the interpretation of the words. Forcing the words to fit a doctrine is not teaching the truth.

That makes sense. I dont agree that The Church is going against its own bible. I just see they have two sacred sources not one, tradition and scripture. We can argue whose wrong all day, but the fact they are different doesnt make the other wrong. Both sides dont quite agree, though.

The truth is there in the scriptures, but like buried treasure, it takes work to dig for it....a most rewarding exercise.

Shrugs. To each his own.

 

[metis]

John 3:16 Notice the central issue is God, Jesus, and the necessity of having faith in both. All the rest is pretty much "window dressing" by comparison. Even with the apostles there were disagreements, but these should not be confused with the base of having faith in God and Jesus.