Justifying the belief in hell.

[Link]

Cool. So,if I find myself after death in front of St. Peter, or anyone with a long beard frowning on me nor wearing a spiritual burka, shall I use that as an excuse?

ciao

- viole

Miracles are part of the way of God guiding humans but the scholars for selfish reasons don't perceive that, because, they would lose their prestige, role, and authority. God's Guide will show you miracles, you've asked the God that shows miracles and not the one who doesn't. I don't believe in the one who doesn't, that leads to astrology and being a slave to forces who have no proof. They spiritually see magic (soothsayers, sorcerers, their followers etc) but are lost creatures in dark unclean illusions and energy.

I am not saying to believe in God that wants you to go to soothsayers without proof nor to scholars speaking on behalf of God's Messengers.

I am not asking you to believe in God, but we agreed, that Atheists are right that God can show complete proofs "God is capable of a revealing a sign but most people do not know" - Quran.

You agree if God exists these would be proofs and would show him existing and you would believe in him and the guide that performs it.

Elijah vs Priests of false God. This is the trial now, except the Guide is hidden.

You've put him and God to the test, let's wait and see now.

 

[viole]

As for signs, Quran says God will show them, but not to hasten them, because if we are shown when not ready they become non-beneficial and God can't do much to guide at that point and truth will only be shown fully on day of judgment without doubt from anyone.

Since you have asked and pledge to be ready for God's signs, I truly hope it's soon (even inshallah tomorrow). In Quran, there was Uzair who thought God would not revive a city, and God did not only that, but killed him and revived that human, and he didn't expect it.

Pharaoh didn't expect the miracles from Moses but challenged him.

I don't believe you are a bad person but genuinely want to see proof of God and know God can show signs and wonder always why he doesn't do so. This is fair.

I believe you will be initiated to the hidden battle in this world: God's forces vs Gog and Magog and all those caught between.

Life will get weird, but it's the life you are meant to live, knowing God, being show clear signs and proofs, and witnessing the light and spiritual realm connected to this world, will be added to the signs you will be shown (physically) inshallah and those are even higher signs and will confirm the miracles and sustenance and power being from God.

That is not what I asked. i asked what the constraints to prayers are. You seem to acknowledge that time constraints are such. Are there others?

ciao

- viole

 

[Link]

That is not what I asked. i asked what the constraints to prayers are.

ciao

- viole

There is different situations. In general, not being hasty with God's signs is a command in Quran. He will show you them a promise in Quran. I know you don't believe in Quran, but if he doesn't show you signs when asking for them, then the Quran is false.

The Quran in Surah Anbiya says in context of miracles go ahead ask the family of the reminder if you don't know. Now there is no one among the family of the reminder in public to go to and ask for miracles, but there is "for every people a Guide" that can show miracles, and you have asked God.

You've done good Viole. Let's see what happens now.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

so if you don't have a physical body, how can one be tormented in hell except through mind?

hell is not so much another place as it is service to self and the turning away from love to all as self. god is divided from self by self's selfish motives and self's choice. heaven is a place where everyone is altruistic and concerned and helpful towards all beings.

hell is a place where the selfish only wants suffering to cease for self.

Yeah. I tend to believe that there’s only heaven, but that would be hell for evil people.

 

[viole]

There is different situations. In general, not being hasty with God's signs is a command in Quran

There we go. The ones who made up the Quran where not so silly after all. In the same way the Christins made up Jesus not knowing when He will return, in order to keep the jury out indefinitely.

The question is why you guys are so easily fooled by something like that.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

It’s

Fear is good because it makes you know you are accountable for your evil and that evil is deserving of consequences. Repentance is important but we also have to battle with Satanic magic and defeat it.

not that hard, though I have lots of practice— once you realize that reality is what you make it in that existence, you are like Neo kicking Smith’s butt in the Matrix.

 

[Link]

There we go. The ones who made up the Quran where not so silly after all. In the same way the Christins made up Jesus not knowing when He will return, in order to keep the jury out indefinitely.

The question is why you guys are so easily fooled by something like that.

Ciao

- viole

The Quran shows for every people there is a guide who can show miracles and who God can reveal miracles to prove him. This means, there is no need to wait indefinitely. The verse I'm talking about is in Surah Nahl and in that paradigm, all the people asking for such miracles were shown them during their life time.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

His negligence is also a defense.

If he didn't warn about it, we would complain more on the day of judgment and probably have some case in this regard.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

God is not a calculator, he is a person, his personality is the utmost highest glory,

Just out of idle curiosity --- what does that even mean?

How do you think of "personality?" That one personality may be "glorious" and another one rubbish? Can personalities be red or blue? Up or down? Glorious or ignoble?

You spend all of your time espousing notions that you were indoctrinated with, yet you don't appear to even know what they mean. Why not try thinking it through -- ask yourself questions like "what does it mean to be perfect?" or "what does it mean to be glorious?" or what does it mean to be purple?"

Then ask yourself "what does it mean to be me?"

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

The Quran shows for every people there is a guide who can show miracles and who God can reveal miracles to prove him. This means, there is no need to wait indefinitely. The verse I'm talking about is in Surah Nahl and in that paradigm, all the people asking for such miracles were shown them during their life time.

Yet, for some really curious reason -- those "miracles" are never forthcoming! Do you think God is asleep at the switch? Do you suppose there's nothing, anywhere, that needs fixing -- that could really benefit from a good miracle? If only one was available?

Why do you keep talking about them if you can't even present one to us?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

There is no justice in burning someone for eternity for what they did in an extremely short life. Plus, people can change with time.

I am thoroughly disgusted with a God who would burn people in hell forever. If I die today, will I go to hell?

Hell is overrated.

 

[stvdv]

Salam

The Quran says regarding hell that no one denies it except the wicked people. It also says who fears God will enter paradise. It seems then per Quran our destiny almost solely based on if we accept hell or not. If we accept hell and believe in it, we are automatically fearful of God as we would be believers in his wrath and automatically fear hell.

If we deny it, we probably, have lost fear that we can go there and more over per Quran, we are of the wicked people.

This is not a justification for the belief in Hell
OR
That we are wicked people

This is at best a justification for the belief in Hell for these Muslims
OR
That such Muslims are wicked people

Note:
I read many Hindu Scriptures, and I do not remember that they all declare that Hell exists as a physical place where people will go after they die, of course there might be such verses to cater to the people who love to believe in Hell.

But I did come across verses that did declare that Hell might exists in the mind of people who entertain such Hellish thoughts. With that I can agree, when I am reading your OP. Luckily Hindus are free to choose for them selves if they want to go to Hell or not

Note: Of course, Islamic Scriptures do not pertain to Hindu people, this I am sure of. Hindu people have Hindu Scriptures to read

 

[KWED]

Salam

The Quran says regarding hell that no one denies it except the wicked people. It also says who fears God will enter paradise. It seems then per Quran our destiny almost solely based on if we accept hell or not. If we accept hell and believe in it, we are automatically fearful of God as we would be believers in his wrath and automatically fear hell.

If we deny it, we probably, have lost fear that we can go there and more over per Quran, we are of the wicked people.

If you just hear one side to a stance, you will, probably, take one side. Taking both sides is a lot harder. As stated in the past, I've done a poem when I was a non-believer that showed my problem with hellfire during that time.

Heretic's defiance:

Say Islam was true
And I was a Jew
Would God torture me
For what I did not see?

In the name of justice
Pain as the flames burn
Days turn into weeks
Weeks into years
All for disbelief
I will have no relief

Billions of years pass by
Justice is still not served
All good is rejected
My good actions are ineffective
And I would not burn if my mind was reflective?

This is the creed that I use to follow
But now I realize such a creed is shallow
Whomever desires other than the true religion
Let him burn in the fire?!
As oppose to loving him, having compassion for him
Appreciating his good,
Honoring his struggles,
Being his friend,
No! No! That is not the way!

For God is enemy of those whom disbelieve!
Friend and Protector of those whom believe!
All are reduced to the lowest of the low!
Except - of course - for those all special and great believers!
Everyone but them, to hell they go!

All astray souls - be prepared for increasing burning!
For none but the guided will have peace!
Is that the remembrance that is suppose to bring ease?
Peace you say?
Bowing Five times a day!
To a Lord whom will watch humans burn in agony?
Having the believers laugh at them for the sake of an irony?

A Lord whom tortures everyone but the righteous guided?
A Lord whom loves not the disbelievers!
Hates them with a strong hatred!
And all this teachings is suppose to be sacred?

Most Merciful, Most Compassionate is he called by all!
But threatens all to hell, except those whom respond to the call?
If you have to be righteous to enter heaven.
What mercy was ever spread in creation?
Or is God accepting regret from a righteous person
Truly a show of ultra mercy, forgiveness, and compassion?
As if it's not justice to accept his regret and reformation!

At the end, O Lord of Islam!
If you are to burn me for this heresy
Then you truly were not a Lord of Mercy.
Not Worthy of Worship, not worth anyone's time.




This is to show, I've been empathetic and even sided with the view that hell-fire is not just and a compassionate God would be above it.


What I will be showing through posts, is why I believe hell-fire is a very rational and morally good thing to believe.

It's important how we phrase things, because often conjecture from Iblis, is said in a flowery way, that sounds good, but reason doesn't accord to it.

Most rational people deny the existence of the Abrahamic hell because it is an incoherent concept that has zero supporting evidence.

Most people who believe in such a hell have been indoctrinated from infancy to accept the concept.

That's kinda it really.

 

[KWED]

The guides and God's revelations are to be catalysts to bringing humanity towards peace, harmony and justice. What is the consequences when people make ambiguous what is clear, confuse people when mental clarity has been provided, misguide people when guidance has been set by God?

And why do people incline to those who misguide, confuse, lie, deceive, and are themselves not guided over God's chosen guides. This itself has to have consequences.

Allah himself deliberately misguides people. (confuse, lie, deceive are all just synonyms for misguide, so Allah is also guilty of these).

 

[KWED]

Why is that?

Imagine you are going to torture a child you and an accomplice have kidnapped.
Your accomplice threatens to kill you if you do torture the child, so you don't do it.
Are you now a better person simply because you were scared of being killed?

 

[KWED]

it takes love of God to fear God. Those who don't love God won't fear him either.

This makes no sense. You don't have to love someone to fear them.
Sounds like Stockholm syndrome.

 

[KWED]

The Quran also shows this. Anyone who takes the study of his Messengers, religion, guidance, and holy books seriously will be guided. It's those really who take it all as a jest and mockery, and are consumed with the Joker card of Iblis to mock God's signs and Messengers that won't be guided.

Ah, "No True Scotman", I believe.
There are many people who have studied Islam (and other religions) in depth and not been converted.
It's the classic "if you read the Quran with an open mind, you would believe". This is the ultimate irony as believers are by definition, close-minded. Their belief demands that they reject anything that seems to contradict their established position. It is called "confirmation bias".

Really, when such high importance it is for humans to be guided towards justice and unite on truth, what should be the consequence of those who took Messengers and what they warned about all in mockery?

If it is really so important that we all believe, why does Allah make the "evidence" convincing only to people who already believe?
What is the point? They are already saved. It is the disbelievers who need convincing, but Allah misguides them and puts a seal on their heart so they cannot believe, even if they are warned. How does that work then?

Their mockery to me is a level of evil and a doorway among the doorways to hell.

But it isn't really "mockery". It is simply dismantling arguments and highlighting flaws. Why should someone be tortured for eternity for presenting rational arguments and engaging in debate?
Explain that if you can.

 

[Link]

When God's words themselves are belittled, the Creator who created this world, and you argue with him and thinking he is irrational and you know better, yes, you deserve hell for that.

 

[Link]

This makes no sense. You don't have to love someone to fear them.
Sounds like Stockholm syndrome.

In this case, if you love him, you appreciate his justice and retributive nature, and if you hate him, you will deny his balanced emotion and say hell is evil and deny hell. So loving him is directly linked to fearing him, because, the signs to degree they will be displayed on the day of judgment won't happen till then, and till then, there is trial of eyes of love to see God and his appointed Guides keep the higher reality from igniting the hell till the day of judgment when the promises will come about. Till then the hell is quiet and so many people think because they witness hell in this world, this is it's final state, it's not. Even dead people don't fully experience it no matter how evil they were, it's full reality, comes about on the day of judgment and forever after.

 

[Mock Turtle]

When God's words themselves are belittled, the Creator who created this world, and you argue with him and thinking he is irrational and you know better, yes, you deserve hell for that.

You are just coming across as someone indoctrinated by some religious text. You're not alone of course.