Judaism: Question about Left-Hand Path Forum

[LuisDantas]

*** Mod Post: thread moved to Same Faith Debates ***


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[Avi1001]

My interest in talking with LHP members, or other members of different DIR, is that we have plenty of overlapping interests and passions, things which transcend religious labels (or forum DIRs) and which may be a mutual field of interest for us regardless of which DIR we most frequent, or which culture or subculture we technically or supposedly belong to.

Caladan, thanks for your well thought out analysis and your great common sense approach. I look forward to reading your posts in the LHP sub-forum.

And I was surprised this thread was moved to the Same Faith Debate sub-forum, without anyone even asking my opinion, because I think this thread is fairly tame compared with some others in the Jewish DIR. But I guess that's how we roll over here.

 

[graalbaum]

.............

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Do any of you read the posts in these sub-forums ? If so, what do you think about the content ? What are your thoughts about Satanism and Luciferianism ? Are these legitamite religions or are people that practice them misguided ?

I have little interest in these sub-forums and neither the interest nor the right to judge the legitimacy of their underlying religion. I'm not even sure that the term 'legitimacy' is meaningful in this regard.

I
Didn't we learn, in Judaism, that Satan was the adversary or accuser ? Was this in Job and Chronicles ? Does this mean Satan was bad, I do not think so ? Did Lucifer have any meaning in Judaism, maybe in Isaiah?

Satan is a function. Nevertheless, Jewish ideas of Satan evolved over the course of time - as did concepts of the afterlife, and for much the same reason. Still, for all intents and purposes, Lucifer is about as Jewish as a bacon-cheeseburger.

Should Jews engage in discussion with them, perhaps to discuss ethical and moral practices ?

As a targeted audience? No. In the sense of preaching? No.

Could it be considered part of Tikkum Olam ?

Why?

 

[Avi1001]

For those that seek empowerment theistically or non theistically its a good path, related to secular humanism (Ayn Rand) in its focus... where self impreovement and power is a focus. Seems ok on the surface.

Interesting thoughts, thanks. I wouldn't have thought of the connection to Ayn Rand, but it makes sense.

 

[Avi1001]

I have little interest in these sub-forums and neither the interest nor the right to judge the legitimacy of their underlying religion.

Individual interest is a personal choice, but Levite's and Calandan's responses were along the lines of my questions. Perhaps another way of looking at it is, can anything valuable about the nature of the self, and even extending to the notion of evil, be learned by studying it in this forum structure ? It seems that might be the case.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

..., can anything valuable about the nature of the self, and even extending to the notion of evil, be learned by studying it in this forum structure ? It seems that might be the case.

The answer is obviously 'yes' but the same would be true if we were talking about most other DIRs or, for that matter, about comic books or Irish folklore. If the answer is almost always 'yes' I'm not at all convinced that the question prompting the answer has value.

 

[metis]

I have not checked out these sub-forums, nor did I even notice this thread (my wife claims that I am not the most observant person on this planet, but I can't figure out why she says that?

Anyhow, as a non-theist, I don't think it's likely to be something I can relate to, but I will check them out next week.

BTW, I would not call Ayn Rand a "secular humanist"-- "secular", yes; "humanist", not unless one uses a rather different definition for that term that I have ever seen used.

Shabbat shalom

 

[Caladan]

Individual interest is a personal choice, but Levite's and Calandan's responses were along the lines of my questions. Perhaps another way of looking at it is, can anything valuable about the nature of the self, and even extending to the notion of evil, be learned by studying it in this forum structure ? It seems that might be the case.

Much the same as with other DIRs, it all depends on the individual member. Some Jewish members here are more likely to discuss Buddhist topics, other Christian topics, other LHP related issues, etc. I don't think that Judaism DIR members need to focus on the LHP DIR in particular to have constructive conversations about the nature of the self or the notion of evil, nor do I think that the LHP is the educational platform that average Jews would turn to in order to discuss such subjects.
On the other hand, like I said earlier I can see that some Jewish members and LHP members may have overlapping interests to discuss. I personally do have and always had an interest in various fields and topics which can easily be labeled 'LHP'. I believe that 'pagan' and 'LHP' elements exist in all religions, and in Judaism we can really make one huge bowl of fruit salad from it. It would make for great conversations. Jewish lore is packed with stories and tales stretching back to the ancient world with entire pantheons and worlds of everything from exalted archangels to the lower realms of Qlipoth. When Hebrew speaking Jews happen to read magical texts, they usually know their symbolism and language intimately and can put it into context much more naturally.

 

[Avi1001]

The answer is obviously 'yes' but the same would be true if we were talking about most other DIRs or, for that matter, about comic books or Irish folklore. If the answer is almost always 'yes' I'm not at all convinced that the question prompting the answer has value.

Hey Jay, I went back through a number of your posts, and did not find even a single one in the LHP. Caladan posted several interesting ideas there. Is there something that scares you in that sub-forum

 

[Avi1001]

On the other hand, like I said earlier I can see that some Jewish members and LHP members may have overlapping interests to discuss. I personally do have and always had an interest in various fields and topics which can easily be labeled 'LHP'. I believe that 'pagan' and 'LHP' elements exist in all religions, and in Judaism we can really make one huge bowl of fruit salad from it. It would make for great conversations. Jewish lore is packed with stories and tales stretching back to the ancient world with entire pantheons and worlds of everything from exalted archangels to the lower realms of Qlipoth. When Hebrew speaking Jews happen to read magical texts, they usually know their symbolism and language intimately and can put it into context much more naturally.

Your thoughts are truly interfaith in spirit. I am pretty much a rationalist, so it is difficult for me to understand the spiritual side of any religion, including Judaism, but I really appreciate your approach here.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Hey Jay, I went back through a number of your posts, and did not find even a single one in the LHP. Caladan posted several interesting ideas there. Is there something that scares you in that sub-forum

Obviously.

 

[Caladan]

Your thoughts are truly interfaith in spirit. I am pretty much a rationalist, so it is difficult for me to understand the spiritual side of any religion, including Judaism, but I really appreciate your approach here.

I'm not really delving into the spiritual, but more the philosophical, literary, psychological. Spiritual in a way as well perhaps, but still skeptical toward the supernatural. I am a naturalist, and as one, I do not necessarily attribute supernatural qualities to the religious concepts that play a part in my worldview.

 

[Avi1001]

I'm not really delving into the spiritual, but more the philosophical, literary, psychological. Spiritual in a way as well perhaps, but still skeptical toward the supernatural. I am a naturalist, and as one, I do not necessarily attribute supernatural qualities to the religious concepts that play a part in my worldview.

So, it seems that Judaism sort of has its own LHP, maybe Kaballah, which I know little about, or some other approach I am unaware of.

And perhaps the linkage is, as you mention, through philosophy, literature, or psychology.

Now, my training encourages me to move more toward logic and scientifically based approaches. These might be closer to Torah and Talmud based studies. But these approaches have been intensively studied the past 2,000 years.

So isn't it likely that much is to be learned in these directions you suggest, which seem rather non-traditional, in the future ?

 

[Caladan]

So, it seems that Judaism sort of has its own LHP, maybe Kaballah, which I know little about, or some other approach I am unaware of.

I think that many religious narratives (in Judaism and perhaps in other major religions) have many grey areas. Our scriptures are very vivid and reflect human passions through the various books which comprise our canon. We have stories about vengeance, war, vigilante justice, seduction and assassination. These are not necessarily have to be labeled as LHP, my point is simply that much in our heritage and traditions reflect human nature, to its good, bad, strength, and weaknesses. In addition, extra Biblical lore has examples of various of interesting stories about fallen angels, creatures of the night, etc. Much of this knowledge found its way into many magical systems including the LHP. And although it may have been given a new context, the background of these stories is still relevant to the more serious minded.

And perhaps the linkage is, as you mention, through philosophy, literature, or psychology.

Well, I can't really speak for other people. I'm pretty sure that folk type 'magic' which can be labelled LHP has existed in Judaism and other traditionally 'RHP' religions throughout history. Possibly perhaps also higher forms of magic which can go into the grey areas.

Now, my training encourages me to move more toward logic and scientifically based approaches.

I'm not following your line of thought, since I'm not sure any members here denied any specific scientific theory.

These might be closer to Torah and Talmud based studies. But these approaches have been intensively studied the past 2,000 years.

In what ways do you find logic and scientific approach closer to the Torah and Talmud, and also... closer than what?

So isn't it likely that much is to be learned in these directions you suggest, which seem rather non-traditional, in the future ?

Technically, I'm only speaking for myself. And I don't believe I'm the average person, considering that some of my personal interests, even the academic ones might be labelled somewhat eccentric by others.

 

[Levite]

So, it seems that Judaism sort of has its own LHP, maybe Kaballah, which I know little about, or some other approach I am unaware of.

Kabbalah is not LHP.

Kabbalah is the collective name for the several systems of Jewish mysticism, and the numerous sub-works, adaptations, and offshoots of those systems.

There are some works of "Low Kabbalah," from older times, which, being more practically oriented, could be made to become, in effect, part of a semi-LHP-style practice. But they are not designed for that philosophy, and all of the "High Kabbalah" is manifestly not oriented toward such concepts, but if anything, the reverse.

 

[Avi1001]

Here is an interesting description I found on another forum. There is reference to contemplative vs. practical Qabbalah:

-------

The qabbalistic tradition, as it exists today within both Hebraic and Hermetic circles is a means by which one may attain a level of prophecy known as the ruah haqqodesh (lit: the spirit of holiness, understood as the Divine Will, or Holy Guardian Angel), and re-unite themsleves with En Sof. Part of this is the process of finding the fallen sparks hidden within the Qelippoth and restoring them to their rightful place among the Sefiroth. This process is known as Tiqqun Ha'olam (restoring the world) and is analogous to the Abramelin Operation, in which the mage calls forth all his inner daemons and binds them to his will, thus transforming the "evil" into agents of "good." Contemporary Qabbalah consists of two forms: Qabbalah Iyyunith (Contemplative Qabbalah), which is a philosophical excercise, focused on enhancing the religious experience, and Qabbalah Ma'asith (Practical Qabbalah), which is, in a nutshell, magic. Within the practical Qabbalah, there are two traditions: Ma'aseh Merkabah (the work of the [Divine] charriot) and Ma'aseh Bere****h (the world of creation).

Merkabah mysticism is based on the experiences recorded in the prophetic books of the Hebrew Bible. In essence, it may be considered a form of shamanism, and at times relies on aescetic techniques. On the other hand, explorations on the work of creation are thaumaturgic in nature, as they act directly upon creation in an attempt to bend reality to one's will. The consensus of tradition is that these secrets were first given to Adam by the angel Raziel. However, there is little within the corpus of Jewish tradition (that I am aware of) to support this. If anything, it's a concept created to justify the way Qabbalah would come to impact Jewish life. Conversely, the Talmud, 1 Enoch, the Book of Jubilees, and other texts state that the "fallen" angels Azazel (Sammael) and Shemyaza taught the children of Cain (who is considered the progenitor of those of "witch blood" in Luciferian Witchcraft) the magical secrets of creation.

Thus, (and I know this has been quite simplified), if one has the persistence to delve deeply into Ma'aseh Bere****h and has the fortitude to peel away the layers of masques, one finds an apotheosistic tool which taps into the very nature of Choas itself in the Supernal Womb of En Sof.

Ref: Dark Qabbalah

 

[Levite]

Here is an interesting description I found on another forum. There is reference to contemplative vs. practical Qabbalah:

-------

The qabbalistic tradition, as it exists today within both Hebraic and Hermetic circles is a means by which one may attain a level of prophecy known as the ruah haqqodesh (lit: the spirit of holiness, understood as the Divine Will, or Holy Guardian Angel), and re-unite themsleves with En Sof. Part of this is the process of finding the fallen sparks hidden within the Qelippoth and restoring them to their rightful place among the Sefiroth. This process is known as Tiqqun Ha'olam (restoring the world) and is analogous to the Abramelin Operation, in which the mage calls forth all his inner daemons and binds them to his will, thus transforming the "evil" into agents of "good." Contemporary Qabbalah consists of two forms: Qabbalah Iyyunith (Contemplative Qabbalah), which is a philosophical excercise, focused on enhancing the religious experience, and Qabbalah Ma'asith (Practical Qabbalah), which is, in a nutshell, magic. Within the practical Qabbalah, there are two traditions: Ma'aseh Merkabah (the work of the [Divine] charriot) and Ma'aseh Bere****h (the world of creation).

Merkabah mysticism is based on the experiences recorded in the prophetic books of the Hebrew Bible. In essence, it may be considered a form of shamanism, and at times relies on aescetic techniques. On the other hand, explorations on the work of creation are thaumaturgic in nature, as they act directly upon creation in an attempt to bend reality to one's will. The consensus of tradition is that these secrets were first given to Adam by the angel Raziel. However, there is little within the corpus of Jewish tradition (that I am aware of) to support this. If anything, it's a concept created to justify the way Qabbalah would come to impact Jewish life. Conversely, the Talmud, 1 Enoch, the Book of Jubilees, and other texts state that the "fallen" angels Azazel (Sammael) and Shemyaza taught the children of Cain (who is considered the progenitor of those of "witch blood" in Luciferian Witchcraft) the magical secrets of creation.

Thus, (and I know this has been quite simplified), if one has the persistence to delve deeply into Ma'aseh Bere****h and has the fortitude to peel away the layers of masques, one finds an apotheosistic tool which taps into the very nature of Choas itself in the Supernal Womb of En Sof.

Ref: Dark Qabbalah

This is not Kabbalah. It is Qabbala, which is a kind of "Western Mysticism," which, though rooted in part in the ideas of Jewish mysticism, has been conflated and syncretized with various Western (Christian and non-Christian) schools of mystical thought. Though some of the greater scholars of Qabbala are familiar with numerous Jewish texts and traditions, the way they use them is not Jewish. It's true that above, they're drawing not only on traditional Rabbinic mysticism, but on Zoharic Kabbalah, and, heavily, Lurianic Kabbalah, but they're mixing it with interpretations and ideas taken from non-Jewish schools of thought-- from stuff by Aleister Crowley, amongst others.

It can be confusing to sort out what is and is not our mysticism, since both Christian and non-Christian Western mysticisms draw heavily from our mysticism, even to the point of calling what they do Qabbala or Cabala.

 

[Avi1001]

......Much of this knowledge found its way into many magical systems including the LHP......

I'm not following your line of thought, since I'm not sure any members here denied any specific scientific theory.

In my view the notion of magic is an antithesis to science.

In what ways do you find logic and scientific approach closer to the Torah and Talmud, and also......

Torah and Talmud stand up pretty well to logical analysis. Of course, given how long ago they were written, a great deal was not known or misunderstood. But given the framework of their day, they were pretty logically consistent.

.......closer than what?

LHP.

 

[Avi1001]

....There are some works of "Low Kabbalah," from older times, which, being more practically oriented, could be made to become, in effect, part of a semi-LHP-style practice.....

Very interesting !