Judaism: Question about Left-Hand Path Forum

[Avi1001]

This is not Kabbalah. It is Qabbala, which is a kind of "Western Mysticism," which, though rooted in part in the ideas of Jewish mysticism, has been conflated and syncretized with various Western (Christian and non-Christian) schools of mystical thought. Though some of the greater scholars of Qabbala are familiar with numerous Jewish texts and traditions, the way they use them is not Jewish. It's true that above, they're drawing not only on traditional Rabbinic mysticism, but on Zoharic Kabbalah, and, heavily, Lurianic Kabbalah, but they're mixing it with interpretations and ideas taken from non-Jewish schools of thought-- from stuff by Aleister Crowley, amongst others.

It can be confusing to sort out what is and is not our mysticism, since both Christian and non-Christian Western mysticisms draw heavily from our mysticism, even to the point of calling what they do Qabbala or Cabala.

That is quite a mix of schools and personalities ! It sounds like Madonna is in there . I guess I have some reading to do to catch up with all these mystics !

 

[Caladan]

In my view the notion of magic is an antithesis to science.

If you are treating magic as a primitive practice used to put hexes on people, levitate, or become possessed by an infernal spirit, then indeed it is a superstitious and anti scientific practice. But many, perhaps most people don't mean that when they use the term magic/magick. In this sense magic is an intellectual, visual, technical, psychological, and philosophical endeavor in order to promote self progress. It has nothing to do with brooms and black cats. Instead, It is the alchemy of the self, where instead of a superstitious belief that one can turn lead into gold, it is a process of self alchemy, of metamorphosis of the self.

Torah and Talmud stand up pretty well to logical analysis. Of course, given how long ago they were written, a great deal was not known or misunderstood. But given the framework of their day, they were pretty logically consistent.

I'm curious to hear in which ways you believe that the Torah or Talmud are consistent with science or logic, given that neither of these texts is a science book.

LHP.

I have to admit that I'm baffled. A day or two ago you were eager to initiate productive discussions between Jewish members and LHP members, because you considered the LHP platform constructive in order to explore several issues. How did you backtrack to implying the supposed scientific superiority of Judaism?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I have to admit that I'm baffled. A day or two ago you were eager to initiate productive discussions between Jewish members and LHP members, because you considered the LHP platform constructive in order to explore several issues. How did you backtrack to implying the supposed scientific superiority of Judaism?

:yes:

 

[Avi1001]

If you are treating magic as a primitive practice used to put hexes on people, levitate, or become possessed by an infernal spirit, then indeed it is a superstitious and anti scientific practice. But many, perhaps most people don't mean that when they use the term magic/magick. In this sense magic is an intellectual, visual, technical, psychological, and philosophical endeavor in order to promote self progress. It has nothing to do with brooms and black cats. Instead, It is the alchemy of the self, where instead of a superstitious belief that one can turn lead into gold, it is a process of self alchemy, of metamorphosis of the self.

You are right, I am thinking about magic in the supernatural sense. I think most people do. But I like your interpretation, and look forward to hearing more.

I'm curious to hear in which ways you believe that the Torah or Talmud are consistent with science or logic, given that neither of these texts is a science book.

Best example I can give is Gen. 30:25-43, describes Jacob and his speckled flock. Thought of to be the forerunner of selective breeding.

Actually, your comment brings me to another pet peeve. Judaism did not move strongly to the scientific and engineering realm until the time of Maimonides. I am comparing to the Greeks, for instance. This led to many problems, which I will discuss at a later time. And I know there were exceptions to this trend as well, for example King David, but this was the exception.

I have to admit that I'm baffled. A day or two ago you were eager to initiate productive discussions between Jewish members and LHP members, because you considered the LHP platform constructive in order to explore several issues. How did you backtrack to implying the supposed scientific superiority of Judaism?

I never mentioned "superiority of Judaism". In fact, I am a great fan of Mordeci Kaplan's view on chosenness, which I interpret as opposite to superior.

I still think there is some potential for exchanging interesting ideas with LHP folks. The woman that posted here, Infinitesimal, seemed quite reasonable.

On the other hand, I am a bit turned off by the notion of focus on the "self". Also, it seems like the linkage between "the dark side" and evil isn't too cool.

This is just an exploration for me....no money back guarantee to fellow posters, but I appreciate your thoughts .

 

[Infinitum]

I still think there is some potential for exchanging interesting ideas with LHP folks. The woman that posted here, Infinitesimal, seemed quite reasonable.

On the other hand, I am a bit turned off by the notion of focus on the "self". Also, it seems like the linkage between "the dark side" and evil isn't too cool.

This is just an exploration for me....no money back guarantee to fellow posters, but I appreciate your thoughts .

The name's Infinitum.

A surprisingly large number of us LHP don't associate ourselves with evil. You can't look for something you don't believe in. If you're interested in how we view the subject, check this thread for example. Caladan also has it right on how magic is viewed among occultists. One term you see used is ceremonial magic or magick to make a separation between the supernatural variant.

There, just passing through. Levite and Caladan, keep up the good work.

 

[Caladan]

You are right, I am thinking about magic in the supernatural sense. I think most people do. But I like your interpretation, and look forward to hearing more.

I'm positively sure that most people who are interested in magic in the modern or more refined sense make a sharp distinction between your notion of magic and how people such as Israel Regardie for example described it.
In addition, plenty of Jewish traditions are also filled with forms of magic, perhaps in the sense of amulets, rituals, high magic and low magic. And just like with general magic/magick one can make the same distinction between 'primitive' magic, and a more philosophical magic, such as Kabbalistic concepts more suited for modern thinkers who see Man as an analogous to the Sephiroth and the universe.

Best example I can give is Gen. 30:25-43, describes Jacob and his speckled flock. Thought of to be the forerunner of selective breeding.

The paragraph about Jacob's cunning plots in order to establish himself socially is what you base your assertion of Judaism's superiority in logic or science?
Don't get me wrong, I find great value in Biblical literature (not so much in Talmudic one), but which aspects or texts that you can describe as LHP do not meet Biblical or Talmudic standards of logic or science? (And really what kind of science are we talking about? Does the Bible describe any mathematical equations? Or a detailed description of the milky way in a way which is compatible with modern astronomy?)

Actually, your comment brings me to another pet peeve. Judaism did not move strongly to the scientific and engineering realm until the time of Maimonides. I am comparing to the Greeks, for instance. This led to many problems, which I will discuss at a later time. And I know there were exceptions to this trend as well, for example King David, but this was the exception.

Kind David was an exception? Do you mean to say that we have any historical or archaeological records that describe his era as competent in the engineering, logical, or scientific sense? The truth of the matter is that most scholars still don't accept that there is enough evidence to discuss any United Monarchy under David (or Solomon) at all so far. And if there is, it is still very vague.

I never mentioned "superiority of Judaism". In fact, I am a great fan of Mordeci Kaplan's view on chosenness, which I interpret as opposite to superior.

I'm discussing the fact that you implied that Judaism is more in tune with logic or science than the LHP. What aspects of Judaism or the LHP have you contrasted and analyzed to reach the conclusion?
For all we know you might have a point, so we might as well talk about it.

I still think there is some potential for exchanging interesting ideas with LHP folks. The woman that posted here, Infinitesimal, seemed quite reasonable.

Infinitum is a very interesting and informed discussion partner. :yes:

On the other hand, I am a bit turned off by the notion of focus on the "self". Also, it seems like the linkage between "the dark side" and evil isn't too cool.

OK. So what was it that you were interested to discuss when it came to the self in joint Jewish-LHP threads?
Also its important to note, that LHP participants do not consider themselves to promote evil, nor do they think that 'evil' is desirable at all.
The LHP is a system, a tool box. With it a person constructs their own ideology and path. Usually a path of self liberation, and intellectual fulfillment among other things. The archetypes, or beings that they use in their philosophy are often a representation of certain ideas or traits. Either to break the taboos of a Christian society, or to promote certain qualities that are related to these deities. For example, Prometheus as the liberator of humanity, who violated the decree of the gods and dared to share technology and knowledge with humanity in order to empower it. Maybe to ancient Greeks who were Olympian fundamentalists, Prometheus seemed like a devil... but certainly not through our eyes as we analyze these narratives. Likewise, Lucifer is a piece of the Christian mythological jigsaw, and people who embrace Lucifer into their ideology wish to express ideals of freedom, individuality, creativity or other notions. They do not actually mean to say that they worship a Satanic deity who wishes ill on all humanity.

This is just an exploration for me....no money back guarantee to fellow posters, but I appreciate your thoughts .

Same here, I think this is a pretty original and unorthodox discussion which both Jewish members and LHP members can develop.

 

[Avi1001]

I'm positively sure that most people who are interested in magic in the modern or more refined sense make a sharp distinction between your notion of magic and how people such as Israel Regardie for example described it.

Psychological alchemy is an intriguing idea to me. It is sort of like turning lemons into lemonade.

In addition, plenty of Jewish traditions are also filled with forms of magic, perhaps in the sense of amulets, rituals, high magic and low magic. And just like with general magic/magick one can make the same distinction between 'primitive' magic, and a more philosophical magic, such as Kabbalistic concepts more suited for modern thinkers who see Man as an analogous to the Sephiroth and the universe.

Where I am coming from, either you can measure it, or it's not important . Can you see why the LHP is so mysterious to me ?

The paragraph about Jacob's cunning plots in order to establish himself socially is what you base your assertion of Judaism's superiority in logic or science?

Ahha, now you have done it! You have both misquoted me and misunderstood my point in one short sentence !

First, I said I do not assert Judaism's superiority.

Second, the quote I gave from Gen. is not about Jacobs cunning plots, but his early understanding of principles of breeding. This approach was a great example of systematic genetics technique.

Don't get me wrong, I find great value in Biblical literature (not so much in Talmudic one), but which aspects or texts that you can describe as LHP do not meet Biblical or Talmudic standards of logic or science? (And really what kind of science are we talking about? Does the Bible describe any mathematical equations? Or a detailed description of the milky way in a way which is compatible with modern astronomy?)

Do you then reject Talmudic principles ? What are your thoughts about Rabbinic Judaism ?

I am sure certain believers can see differential equations and Milky Way galaxies in the Bible, but I have no such visions !

Kind David was an exception? Do you mean to say that we have any historical or archaeological records that describe his era as competent in the engineering, logical, or scientific sense? The truth of the matter is that most scholars still don't accept that there is enough evidence to discuss any United Monarchy under David (or Solomon) at all so far. And if there is, it is still very vague.

Where I am coming from on the Davidic period, is that, other than the present period, the Davidic period was the most successful period, militarily, in Israeli history. In my view, the reason for the subsequent military decline, after David, was because society did not value the early scientific and engineering approaches that the Assyrians and Babylonians and later the Greeks valued. Jewish values were more focused on "the law", that is the relationship between man and man, not man and machine. It was not until the time of Maimonides that Jews came back to science, and Maimonides scientific focus was on medicine.

I'm discussing the fact that you implied that Judaism is more in tune with logic or science than the LHP. What aspects of Judaism or the LHP have you contrasted and analyzed to reach the conclusion?
For all we know you might have a point, so we might as well talk about it.

I have read the Tanach and parts of Talmud. I know nothing about the LHP and almost nothing about Kaballah. So I guess I am sort of like the Ying, without the Yang !

Infinitum is a very interesting and informed discussion partner. :yes:
OK. So what was it that you were interested to discuss when it came to the self in joint Jewish-LHP threads?

Now we are getting to the heart of the matter !

First, I have to tell you, those LHP dudes scare the heck out of me . I am really not sure where they are coming from at all. As I said from the onset, they certainly think outside the box. Tarheeler said they are into "the self". This seems right to me. I still think there is a connection between the dark side and evil.

Also its important to note, that LHP participants do not consider themselves to promote evil, nor do they think that 'evil' is desirable at all.

Are you sure ? You make them sound like a bunch of Boy Scouts . Maybe this is where the discussion should begin?

The LHP is a system, a tool box. With it a person constructs their own ideology and path. Usually a path of self liberation, and intellectual fulfillment among other things. The archetypes, or beings that they use in their philosophy are often a representation of certain ideas or traits. Either to break the taboos of a Christian society, or to promote certain qualities that are related to these deities.

Now you sound like you are describing the Episcopalians !

For example, Prometheus as the liberator of humanity, who violated the decree of the gods and dared to share technology and knowledge with humanity in order to empower it. Maybe to ancient Greeks who were Olympian fundamentalists. Prometheus seemed like a devil... but certainly not through our eyes as we analyze these narratives. Likewise, Lucifer is a piece of the Christian mythological jigsaw, and people who embrace Lucifer into their ideology wish to express ideals of freedom, individuality, creativity or other notions.......

The devil, Satan, Lucifer, now you are getting warmer (not only metaphorically speaking).

........They do not actually mean to say that they worship a Satanic deity who wishes ill on all humanity.

Are you sure ???

Same here, I think this is a pretty original and unorthodox discussion which both Jewish members and LHP members can develop.

You have a creative mind, indeed, Caladan !

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Avi, you're more than welcome to come into our DIR and ask us questions. We won't bite. (As long as you're respectful.)

 

[Avi1001]

Avi, you're more than welcome to come into our DIR and ask us questions. We won't bite. (As long as you're respectful.)

, thanks saint_frankenstein !

All will be cool with you, as long as we stay away from the graveyard, right

I think I would need Caladan and Levite to guide me in and out, or I might get lost along the way !

I bet your sub-forum is really hopping on Halloween

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

, thanks saint_frankenstein !

All will be cool with you, as long as we stay away from the graveyard, right

Hahaha. They know me there. All the ghouls, goblins, ghosts and what have you are my BFFs.

I bet your sub-forum is really hopping on Halloween

Honestly, I have no idea. Lol.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

... the Davidic period, is that, other than the present period, the Davidic period was the most successful period, militarily, in Israeli history. In my view, the reason for the subsequent military decline, after David, was because society did not value the early scientific and engineering approaches that the Assyrians and Babylonians and later the Greeks valued.

This is absolutely preposterous.

 

[Caladan]

Where I am coming from, either you can measure it, or it's not important . Can you see why the LHP is so mysterious to me ?

Not really. As myself, and I believe every other LHP members who posted in this DIR made sure to explain to you the distinction between common stereotypes about 'occult', 'magic', 'LHP', and I believe none have implied not favoring reason, logic, or science. In short, there is no reason to believe that Judaism is more in line with logic and science than LHP. Every religion, including Judaism and LHP have people who literalize their mythology and those who look at it in a symbolic way.

Ahha, now you have done it! You have both misquoted me and misunderstood my point in one short sentence !

First, I said I do not assert Judaism's superiority.

I am simply puzzled by your implication that Judaism is more in tune with logic and science than the LHP. If there is any other way you could explain it, it would be better.

Second, the quote I gave from Gen. is not about Jacobs cunning plots, but his early understanding of principles of breeding. This approach was a great example of systematic genetics technique.

I don't see it as phenomenal, personally. Human beings have been domesticating and genetically engineering animals and plants for many thousands of years. How is a thousands of years old literature about breeding implies that Judaism is more logical or scientific than the ancient Greeks, Persians, or Hittites? or modern LHP members?
And don't you believe that modern LHP members can joyfully read or study modern genetics without hangups from their personal worldview?
In other words, I don't see how this makes Judaism more consistent with logic or science. It may be more logical to Jews, but that is a given.

Do you then reject Talmudic principles ? What are your thoughts about Rabbinic Judaism ?

The basic Talmudic principles are more in the grey area for me. I don't really see value in them in my modern existence. Today we have a modern legal system, and modern social norms. The Talmud is an entire library where different sages voice their opinions. Some of them are witty and sharp, others are like reading the rants of trolls on an on line forum. Or in other words extra garbage on line. The one thing I can appreciate about the Talmud is that its a great way to see different perspectives debated, as a secular reader its sort of giving you the option to decide what to root for or simply to enjoy the arguments. As for Rabbinic Judaism, I'm pretty far detached from Rabbinic Judaism. I didn't use a rabbi in my marriage for example. While once in a while I meet rabbis who impress me, I believe for the most part these are reform rabbis. I am not really promoting Halacha in my personal life. I base my Jewish identity on ideals, rather than on a religious system where I have to answer to religious or cultural norms.

I am sure certain believers can see differential equations and Milky Way galaxies in the Bible, but I have no such visions !

Neither do many LHP members, when it comes to their literary inspirations.

Where I am coming from on the Davidic period, is that, other than the present period, the Davidic period was the most successful period, militarily, in Israeli history.

Like I said, this is tradition. But archaeologists in the field find very little evidence of this success. Evidence for the Biblical tales about the United Monarchy of David and Solomon are scarce in the archaeological record so far.

In my view, the reason for the subsequent military decline, after David, was because society did not value the early scientific and engineering approaches that the Assyrians and Babylonians and later the Greeks valued.

Again, there is no historical backup to support that there was a Davidic era of military, scientific, or engineering great successes

I have read the Tanach and parts of Talmud. I know nothing about the LHP and almost nothing about Kaballah. So I guess I am sort of like the Ying, without the Yang !

I hope you can see why I'm puzzled now If you know nothing about the LHP, you need to understand some basic things about the umbrella term 'LHP', before we talk about logic or science. So far you have inssisted that LHP is related to obscure occult practices of the supernatural kind. At least that is what I understand from your last posts.

Now we are getting to the heart of the matter !
First, I have to tell you, those LHP dudes scare the heck out of me . I am really not sure where they are coming from at all. As I said from the onset, they certainly think outside the box. Tarheeler said they are into "the self". This seems right to me. I still think there is a connection between the dark side and evil.

Whatever connections we make of course. In general LHP people I know are not a public menace, they do not promote crime or violence, or delve into sinister practices. Instead many of them develop or adhere to a philosophical structure which substitutes traditional dogmatic religions and social structures with independent space. Instead of adhering to saints or deities which demand our nice and orderly conformity into a hierarchy, they adhere to their own ideals, which they ought to dictate for themselves.

Are you sure ? You make them sound like a bunch of Boy Scouts . Maybe this is where the discussion should begin?

I didn't find the various LHP members on line or in real life that I met to be threatening or dangerous in any particular way.

The devil, Satan, Lucifer, now you are getting warmer (not only metaphorically speaking).

You must have more to say about the analogy than that?
Do you see how mythological beings which have been vilified by Christianity can instead be integrated into a Promethean philosophy? Are we really going to let the theology of the New Testament or later Christian theology to dictate to us our cosmological world view? Satan as an evil god of this world, or Lucifer as the fallen devil are two ideas which were largely promoted by the Christian world. But Christian theology is not the end all of mythological and philosophical study. The beauty of mythology is that there are so many beings and gods, so many perspectives. Satan of the New Testament is not HaSatan of the Hebrew Bible. Lucifer of 3rd or 4th Christian period onward, is not the Lucifer of Roman religion.

Are you sure ???

You are free to ask our LHP members. And if you believe they do, then what common ground did you propose that Jewish members and LHP members have to discuss? The enslavement of humanity and the ushering of an era of Darkness?

You have a creative mind, indeed, Caladan !

:curtsy:

 

[Avi1001]

You are free to ask our LHP members. And if you believe they do, then what common ground did you propose that Jewish members and LHP members have to discuss? The enslavement of humanity and the ushering of an era of Darkness?

Lets start here, at your final point. I agree, the frame of mind you mention would be a non-starter.

Not really. As myself, and I believe every other LHP members who posted in this DIR made sure to explain to you the distinction between common stereotypes about 'occult', 'magic', 'LHP', and I believe none have implied not favoring reason, logic, or science. In short, there is no reason to believe that Judaism is more in line with logic and science than LHP. Every religion, including Judaism and LHP have people who literalize their mythology and those who look at it in a symbolic way.

I am not discussing the common stereotypes, you are. The Torah is a sacred text with focus on the law, the relationship between man and man. It takes sophisticated logic to set up a consistent legal system. Judaism did that well. Please provide an example where LHP set up such a logically consistent system.

I am simply puzzled by your implication that Judaism is more in tune with logic and science than the LHP. If there is any other way you could explain it, it would be better.

I don't see it as phenomenal, personally. Human beings have been domesticating and genetically engineering animals and plants for many thousands of years. How is a thousands of years old literature about breeding implies that Judaism is more logical or scientific than the ancient Greeks, Persians, or Hittites? or modern LHP members?
And don't you believe that modern LHP members can joyfully read or study modern genetics without hangups from their personal worldview?
In other words, I don't see how this makes Judaism more consistent with logic or science. It may be more logical to Jews, but that is a given.

You are beating a dead horse here. I will say that the Greeks and Persians did a lot with math, science and technology, and I will be glad to discuss this further as well. But it does not prove the LHP does the same. Can you provide any references to show the LHP is based on logical systems ?

The basic Talmudic principles are more in the grey area for me. I don't really see value in them in my modern existence. Today we have a modern legal system, and modern social norms. The Talmud is an entire library where different sages voice their opinions. Some of them are witty and sharp, others are like reading the rants of trolls on an on line forum. Or in other words extra garbage on line. The one thing I can appreciate about the Talmud is that its a great way to see different perspectives debated, as a secular reader its sort of giving you the option to decide what to root for or simply to enjoy the arguments. As for Rabbinic Judaism, I'm pretty far detached from Rabbinic Judaism. I didn't use a rabbi in my marriage for example. While once in a while I meet rabbis who impress me, I believe for the most part these are reform rabbis. I am not really promoting Halacha in my personal life. I base my Jewish identity on ideals, rather than on a religious system where I have to answer to religious or cultural norms.

Neither do many LHP members, when it comes to their literary inspirations.

Talmud is indeed one of the examples of deep logic within Judaism. Some of the Rabbinic scholars were real geniuses.

Like I said, this is tradition. But archaeologists in the field find very little evidence of this success. Evidence for the Biblical tales about the United Monarchy of David and Solomon are scarce in the archaeological record so far.

Again, there is no historical backup to support that there was a Davidic era of military, scientific, or engineering great successes.

Good point. However, again tangential to my main point about the use of logic, and how it pertains to the law.

I hope you can see why I'm puzzled now If you know nothing about the LHP, you need to understand some basic things about the umbrella term 'LHP', before we talk about logic or science. So far you have inssisted that LHP is related to obscure occult practices of the supernatural kind. At least that is what I understand from your last posts.

No, we are beyond LHP as only supernatural.

Whatever connections we make of course. In general LHP people I know are not a public menace, they do not promote crime or violence, or delve into sinister practices. Instead many of them develop or adhere to a philosophical structure which substitutes traditional dogmatic religions and social structures with independent space. Instead of adhering to saints or deities which demand our nice and orderly conformity into a hierarchy, they adhere to their own ideals, which they ought to dictate for themselves.

I didn't find the various LHP members on line or in real life that I met to be threatening or dangerous in any particular way.

How many LHP members do you know in your non-virtual (real world) life ? How well do you know them ?

You must have more to say about the analogy than that?
Do you see how mythological beings which have been vilified by Christianity can instead be integrated into a Promethean philosophy? Are we really going to let the theology of the New Testament or later Christian theology to dictate to us our cosmological world view? Satan as an evil god of this world, or Lucifer as the fallen devil are two ideas which were largely promoted by the Christian world. But Christian theology is not the end all of mythological and philosophical study. The beauty of mythology is that there are so many beings and gods, so many perspectives. Satan of the New Testament is not HaSatan of the Hebrew Bible. Lucifer of 3rd or 4th Christian period onward, is not the Lucifer of Roman religion.
:curtsy:

I'll keep these ideas in mind, but I might need some additional context as well, so hang on buddy

 

[Caladan]

I am not discussing the common stereotypes, you are.

Please keep in mind that there was at least one LHP members who challenged your views. Notice that you are still doubtful (perhaps sarcastically I'm not sure) whether LHP members take evil or at least questionable ideals or behavior as their norms.

The Torah is a sacred text with focus on the law, the relationship between man and man. It takes sophisticated logic to set up a consistent legal system. Judaism did that well. Please provide an example where LHP set up such a logically consistent system.

Sorry, I don't see it. Maybe it made sense to the scribes who wrote it in their regional and social landscape. But I'll be a damned fool to believe their logic or law applies to me in 21st century Israel.

You are beating a dead horse here. I will say that the Greeks and Persians did a lot with math, science and technology, and I will be glad to discuss this further as well. But it does not prove the LHP does the same. Can you provide any references to show the LHP is based on logical systems ?

Lets put it that way. You cited a Biblical text about domestication and breeding techniques during the Bronze or Iron age. This is a knowledge that is neither distinct to ancient Israelites, nor is it something to boast about in today's scientific and genetic knowledge. LHP members don't need this kind of Biblical knowledge, they can simply turn to modern domestication practices, or modern science. The latter may prove much more constructive. I just don't see how ancient breeding techniques gives any indication of how modern Jews have a more logical frame than any other group, in this case LHP.

Talmud is indeed one of the examples of deep logic within Judaism. Some of the Rabbinic scholars were real geniuses.

Deep logic, and like I said plenty of useless material which is either cryptic or irrelevant to the reason and sensibilities of modern men and women.

Good point. However, again tangential to my main point about the use of logic, and how it pertains to the law.

Sorry, I'm not following you. If you mean the Biblical literature about King David's achievements, then in this case we should also condemn him for his shortcomings such as sending Uriah the Hittite to die so that he can marry his wife Bathsheba. In addition the reign of David did not have a happy ending. His son Absalom rebelled against him and fought a civil war and his eldest son Adonjiah plotted to take his throne.

No, we are beyond LHP as only supernatural.

So where do we move to from here?

How many LHP members do you know in your non-virtual (real world) life ? How well do you know them ?

Quite a few actually. And if not people who take the idea of LHP religiously, quite a few that find plenty of inspiration from LHP ideals and themes.

 

[Avi1001]

Please keep in mind that there was at least one LHP members who challenged your views.

Hey Caladan, I think you told me you are a scientist, an archeologist. Do you do scientific studies with a sample size of 1 ?

Notice that you are still doubtful (perhaps sarcastically I'm not sure) whether LHP members take evil or at least questionable ideals or behavior as their norms.

Correct, you have not convinced me otherwise. But who knows, maybe they are just libertarians .

So where do we move to from here?

Good question. I don't let grass grow under my feet. We have already moved on. I started a thread in the LHP sub-forum. I hope you will consider joining us. Thanks for sharing your insights on this thread.

 

[Caladan]

Hey Caladan, I think you told me you are a scientist, an archeologist. Do you do scientific studies with a sample size of 1 ?

This isn't a science project, it's an on line discussion. And considering that the one LHP member who addressed your posts did challenge them, especially the assertion that LHP members associate themselves with evil, I would find it arrogant to dismiss it as bad statistics. Only a handful of members participated in this discussion, don't you think you should base your conclusions on the merit of the posts, which after all address your questions we can all assume were asked in honesty and form a desire to learn?

Correct, you have not convinced me otherwise. But who knows, maybe they are just libertarians .

Frankly I am not trying to convince you of anything. This is an internet forum, people discuss and debate. We don't get minions, students, or funding if we convert people to our POV. Instead as a member I look for other things, such as honest and constructive discussions. Your inquiries have been replied to by myself, Infinitum, and I believe already other members in your new thread. If you believe that LHP members are giving you false information, then whatever answers they give you wouldn't matter, and the discussion would reach a dead end.

 

[Avi1001]

This isn't a science project, it's an on line discussion.

Sorry,I don't understand your point. Is there a different standard for truth and logic between a peer reviewed paper and an on-line board?

And considering that the one LHP member who addressed your posts did challenge them, especially the assertion that LHP members associate themselves with evil, I would find it arrogant to dismiss it as bad statistics.

Just because one member challenges an assumption of mine does not mean I have to drop it. Also, I do not see how that makes me arrogant.

Only a handful of members participated in this discussion, don't you think you should base your conclusions on the merit of the posts, which after all address your questions we can all assume were asked in honesty and form a desire to learn?

My conclusions are based not only on my analysis of the discussion here, but also my broader experiences, and my intuition.

Frankly I am not trying to convince you of anything.

I don't understand. This thread was moved to a debate sub-forum. Isn't the point of debate to prove that you are presenting a correct argument ?

This is an internet forum, people discuss and debate.

Did I say anything to challenge this assumption?

We don't get minions, students, or funding if we convert people to our POV.

I do not understand your point. You think I am here seeking any of these things ?

Instead as a member I look for other things, such as honest and constructive discussions.

So am I. Plus to learn.

Your inquiries have been replied to by myself, Infinitum, and I believe already other members in your new thread.

Thank you for your responses.

If you believe that LHP members are giving you false information, then whatever answers they give you wouldn't matter, and the discussion would reach a dead end.

Did I say anyone gave me false information ? No, I did not. Let me try to respond to what I think is your valid concern.

If I say everyone in the LHP sub-forum is evil, that would be insulting to them, so, as you say, it would leave nothing to discuss. That is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that from my experiences and my intuition, there is a link between darkness and evil, and there is an association between darkness and the LHP.

Thank you for helping me formulate that linkage more clearly.

 

[Infinitum]

If I say everyone in the LHP sub-forum is evil, that would be insulting to them, so, as you say, it would leave nothing to discuss. That is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that from my experiences and my intuition, there is a link between darkness and evil, and there is an association between darkness and the LHP.

Thank you for helping me formulate that linkage more clearly.

It probably doesn't come as a surprise I view this differently. I do wonder why you started a thread in the DIR if you weren't going to ask for our views on things instead of simply filtering any response you get (also Caladan's, who has provided you with excellent information) through your predetermined perception of reality. I call you out to debate this -- assuming you can handle a polite conversation with someone you apparently think is "evil". I must say you've not been treating even Caladan that well, thinking about how graciously he's been giving you in-depth responses to a subject that isn't even his main area of interest.

 

[Avi1001]

It probably doesn't come as a surprise I view this differently. I do wonder why you started a thread in the DIR if you weren't going to ask for our views on things instead of simply filtering any response you get (also Caladan's, who has provided you with excellent information) through your predetermined perception of reality.

I looked at my posts in the DIR, and I count over 10 questions I posted. I am reading and analyzing the responses of DIR forum members. As part of my analysis I use my experience and intuition. Do you not use a similar approach in your analysis ? Caladan has indeed provided excellent information, and I have thanked him for this. Are you suggesting that I provide additional acknowledgement to him for his participation ?

I call you out to debate this -- assuming you can handle a polite conversation with someone you apparently think is "evil".

I accept your challenge for a polite conversation.

And, I do not think you are evil.

I will try to be very clear about this, so there is no misunderstanding, I will quote my response to Caladan on the earlier post:

"If I say everyone in the LHP sub-forum is evil, that would be insulting to them, so, as you say, it would leave nothing to discuss. That is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that from my experiences and my intuition, there is a link between darkness and evil, and there is an association between darkness and the LHP."

Did I say that you are evil ? I would say not.

I must say you've not been treating even Caladan that well, thinking about how graciously he's been giving you in-depth responses to a subject that isn't even his main area of interest.

I do not understand your point. I have tried to be polite and respectful to Caladan. In what sense have I "not been treating even Caladan that well" ?

 

[1137]

I am new here, but I notice there is a forum called the Left-Hand Path. They have sub-forums, called Satanism and Luciferianism.

I am curious,what do the Jewish posters in this forum think of these sub-forums ? Do any of you read the posts in these sub-forums ? If so, what do you think about the content ? What are your thoughts about Satanism and Luciferianism ? Are these legitamite religions or are people that practice them misguided ?

The all-powerful staff granted individuals such as myself the ability to participate in both forums. Since Judaism goes beyond religion there is really no contradiction.

Didn't we learn, in Judaism, that Satan was the adversary or accuser ? Was this in Job and Chronicles ? Does this mean Satan was bad, I do not think so ? Did Lucifer have any meaning in Judaism, maybe in Isaiah ?

In hebrew school I was taught that Satan was a tester, not really an enemy. It is a title for an angel sent to intervene in the affairs of man, one that man usually sees as "evil". Evil is a meaningless concept in Judaism since the God of Judaism is whole, creator of both good and evil.

Does Judaism have any view of people that follow these practices ? In this sort of forum it would be very easy to engage with these people. Should Jews engage in discussion with them, perhaps to discuss ethical and moral practices ? Could it be considered part of Tikkum Olam ?

My family is totally cool with it. The only issue was in high school when I said I was not Jewish. I did not understand the idea of Judaism through birth and the like, and I argued against it. I since learned better and embrace both aspects of my self. The question of whether to engage us has varying answers, depends on the individual. I'm generally easy to engage, though I'd prefer to keep my presence here limited and ask for a private message. I only returned for a few topics that caught my eye, such as this.