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Judaism: Question about Left-Hand Path Forum

Levite

Higher and Higher
Evil is a meaningless concept in Judaism since the God of Judaism is whole, creator of both good and evil.

God may the sole creator of both good and evil, but that absolutely does not mean that evil is a meaningless concept in Judaism. Many, if not all, the mitzvot are very much about doing what is right and avoiding doing what is evil. Justice, fairness, empathy, and concern for the good of others are absolutely central and paramount in Judaism, and it is explicitly noted numerous times in many of our sacred texts that these things are what God wishes from us as opposed to what is evil-- which would be the inverse of these things.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
God may the sole creator of both good and evil, but that absolutely does not mean that evil is a meaningless concept in Judaism. Many, if not all, the mitzvot are very much about doing what is right and avoiding doing what is evil. Justice, fairness, empathy, and concern for the good of others are absolutely central and paramount in Judaism, and it is explicitly noted numerous times in many of our sacred texts that these things are what God wishes from us as opposed to what is evil-- which would be the inverse of these things.

Not my interpretation. Evil is supernatural, man can do WRONG.

Anyway, my return is hardly founded on a desire to debate such topics, and last time I disagreed with someone I received citation and left for a month.
 
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Levite

Higher and Higher
Not my interpretation. Evil is supernatural, man can do WRONG.

Anyway, my return is hardly founded on a desire to debate such topics, and last time I disagreed with someone I received citation and left for a month.

And I'm not telling you to change your interpretation.

I'm only clarifying that it is not an interpretation that has been prevalent in either mainstream Jewish theology/philosophy or in Kabbalah, and which, I think, would be hard to effectively support using Tanach and Rabbinic text proofs, which is how we traditionally do such things.

I only quibble because you broadly said that "evil is meaningless in Judaism," rather than qualifying the statement "evil is meaningless" as your specific interpretation.
 

Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
In hebrew school I was taught that Satan was a tester, not really an enemy. It is a title for an angel sent to intervene in the affairs of man, one that man usually sees as "evil". Evil is a meaningless concept in Judaism since the God of Judaism is whole, creator of both good and evil.

So then, is the concept of "evil" more meaningful, to you, in Satanism or Luciferianism ?
 

arcanum

Active Member
If I may butt in as a non Jew, the question of Satan is rather interesting is it not? My understanding is the concept of Satan changed radically as reflected in the post exile writings. These writing were informed and written down with a post exile mentality, heavily influenced by Zoroastrian dualism. Jewish belief was forever changed after the captivity and different Jewish groups came back to Israel believing in different things. Those Jews who were more influenced by Persian ideas were called the pharisees, similar to the term farsi, as opposed to the Sadducee's who were more focused on sacrifices, ritual, and more earthly levels of spirituality. Obviously those of a more pharisee influence were the strand more likely to join the christian movement, the Sadducee movement died as did the Essene's. So basically what happened is the Jewish religion split, rabbinic Judaism in one direction and the Jesus movement in another. Both factions informed by the pharisees. Refute it please.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
If I may butt in as a non Jew, the question of Satan is rather interesting is it not? My understanding is the concept of Satan changed radically as reflected in the post exile writings. These writing were informed and written down with a post exile mentality, heavily influenced by Zoroastrian dualism. Jewish belief was forever changed after the captivity and different Jewish groups came back to Israel believing in different things. Those Jews who were more influenced by Persian ideas were called the pharisees, similar to the term farsi, as opposed to the Sadducee's who were more focused on sacrifices, ritual, and more earthly levels of spirituality. Obviously those of a more pharisee influence were the strand more likely to join the christian movement, the Sadducee movement died as did the Essene's. So basically what happened is the Jewish religion split, rabbinic Judaism in one direction and the Jesus movement in another. Both factions informed by the pharisees. Refute it please.

Um...sorry, no.

The name Pharisaioi (Pharisee) is the Greek transliteration of the Hebrew Perushi, meaning "One Who Seeks Meanings," or "Exegete." It has nothing whatsoever to do with Persia or Persians. Even the Hebrew name for Persia, paras is spelled differently than the root of the name Perushi. I cannot stress enough that one cannot try to play guessing games about meaning based on the etymologies of words that one imagines might sound a little similar. Linguistics does not work that way. You actually have to know what the words are, and how they evolved, before you can make arguments like that.
Furthermore, the Pharisee movement began during the Hellenic period, well after the conquest of Persia by Alexander.

Sadducee, on the other hand, translates the Hebrew Tzedoki, meaning "Righteous Ones," but also playing on their collective claim to be right-line priests from the clan of the High Priest Tzadok, who served as High Priest during the reign of King David. Their interest was in sacrifices and Temple rites because they were largely priests in the Temple. Whereas the Pharisees were men of trades who also studied and made law, acted as judges and scribes, and represented a populist movement in ancient Judaism. The Sadducee movement died out because it was entirely focused on the Temple, which was destroyed in 70 CE. The Essene movements died out for various reasons, probably chief among them being that they prohibited all sexual intercourse, even for reproduction.

While Jewish thought was certainly influenced in various ways by Babylonian (rather than Persian) religions, philosophies, and practices-- subtly, and over a very long period-- none of those ways particularly were relevant to the concept of the satan. Judaism-- especially Rabbinic Judaism, which is the lineal descendant and outgrowth of Pharisaic Judaism-- has never been dualistic. Dualism, in fact, is noted as a heretical belief numerous times in the Talmud.

As for Jesus, comparatively few Jews followed his disciples after his death: that's why Paul and others like him focused so heavily on proselytizing Christians from among the non-Jews. They just weren't having enough luck with the Jews. While Jesus himself and his original followers were probably largely renegade and heretic Pharisees (with a melange of other additional thought and practices coloring their Pharisaic base), it is doubtful that any sizeable population of Pharisaic Jews drifted to Christianity in the decades following the death of Jesus.

One way we can see that this is true is that in Tannaitic documents (the literature of the Pharisees and their students the Tanna'im-- the Rabbis of 50 CE to 220 CE or so) when heresy is dealt with, and polemics are made, they are chiefly in response to Greek philosophy (the word for heretic in Hebrew continues to be apikoros, after the name Epicurus), and to a lesser degree in response to Gnosticism. Christianity does not appear as a heretical threat deserving mention and polemical response until Amoraic literature (the writings of the Rabbis of 250 CE to 500 CE or so).

You may wish to do some basic research into Judaism in the Ancient Near East. Maybe start with a basic history of the Jewish People, like the one by H.H. Ben-Sasson.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Um...sorry, no.

The name Pharisaioi (Pharisee) is the Greek transliteration of the Hebrew Perushi, meaning "One Who Seeks Meanings," or "Exegete." It has nothing whatsoever to do with Persia or Persians. Even the Hebrew name for Persia, paras is spelled differently than the root of the name Perushi. I cannot stress enough that one cannot try to play guessing games about meaning based on the etymologies of words that one imagines might sound a little similar. Linguistics does not work that way. You actually have to know what the words are, and how they evolved, before you can make arguments like that.
Furthermore, the Pharisee movement began during the Hellenic period, well after the conquest of Persia by Alexander.

Sadducee, on the other hand, translates the Hebrew Tzedoki, meaning "Righteous Ones," but also playing on their collective claim to be right-line priests from the clan of the High Priest Tzadok, who served as High Priest during the reign of King David. Their interest was in sacrifices and Temple rites because they were largely priests in the Temple. Whereas the Pharisees were men of trades who also studied and made law, acted as judges and scribes, and represented a populist movement in ancient Judaism. The Sadducee movement died out because it was entirely focused on the Temple, which was destroyed in 70 CE. The Essene movements died out for various reasons, probably chief among them being that they prohibited all sexual intercourse, even for reproduction.

While Jewish thought was certainly influenced in various ways by Babylonian (rather than Persian) religions, philosophies, and practices-- subtly, and over a very long period-- none of those ways particularly were relevant to the concept of the satan. Judaism-- especially Rabbinic Judaism, which is the lineal descendant and outgrowth of Pharisaic Judaism-- has never been dualistic. Dualism, in fact, is noted as a heretical belief numerous times in the Talmud.

As for Jesus, comparatively few Jews followed his disciples after his death: that's why Paul and others like him focused so heavily on proselytizing Christians from among the non-Jews. They just weren't having enough luck with the Jews. While Jesus himself and his original followers were probably largely renegade and heretic Pharisees (with a melange of other additional thought and practices coloring their Pharisaic base), it is doubtful that any sizeable population of Pharisaic Jews drifted to Christianity in the decades following the death of Jesus.

One way we can see that this is true is that in Tannaitic documents (the literature of the Pharisees and their students the Tanna'im-- the Rabbis of 50 CE to 220 CE or so) when heresy is dealt with, and polemics are made, they are chiefly in response to Greek philosophy (the word for heretic in Hebrew continues to be apikoros, after the name Epicurus), and to a lesser degree in response to Gnosticism. Christianity does not appear as a heretical threat deserving mention and polemical response until Amoraic literature (the writings of the Rabbis of 250 CE to 500 CE or so).

You may wish to do some basic research into Judaism in the Ancient Near East. Maybe start with a basic history of the Jewish People, like the one by H.H. Ben-Sasson.

Excellent post, Levite-- lots of info in a few short paragraphs. If I can make two additional points.

One is that I have read from some historian(s) that the Pharisee movement may have gone all the way back to the Babylonian exile because the Temple was gone and thus there may have been a gradual shift more towards the use of both Torah and the oral law, quite possibly at first meeting in people's homes-- the first "synagogues"? This is not to disagree with what you wrote above, since if these historians are correct, then it becomes a matter of where one draws the line.

My second point is deeply theological, and that is that the Black Hawks, Cubs, and White Sox suck! :run:
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
So do the Red Wings. Go Pens!!

Peter

Rabbis are supposed to be teachers, but if they teach like this :foot: , then they're no longer useful. :sorry1:

BTW, anyone who supports the Pens should have to live in one. :p
 

jtartar

Well-Known Member
I am new here, but I notice there is a forum called the Left-Hand Path. They have sub-forums, called Satanism and Luciferianism.

I am curious,what do the Jewish posters in this forum think of these sub-forums ? Do any of you read the posts in these sub-forums ? If so, what do you think about the content ? What are your thoughts about Satanism and Luciferianism ? Are these legitamite religions or are people that practice them misguided ?

Didn't we learn, in Judaism, that Satan was the adversary or accuser ? Was this in Job and Chronicles ? Does this mean Satan was bad, I do not think so ? Did Lucifer have any meaning in Judaism, maybe in Isaiah ?

Does Judaism have any view of people that follow these practices ? In this sort of forum it would be very easy to engage with these people. Should Jews engage in discussion with them, perhaps to discuss ethical and moral practices ? Could it be considered part of Tikkum Olam ?
AVI1001,
If you claim to be a Christian, you will have nothing to do with people who are diametrically opposed to Jehovah God, the Almighty God, who created everything.
The Creator has given us His way of thinking about such things. Consider Deut 18:10-14. The reason is, this kind of thinking could, if you are not a very strong Christian, and are able to defend your beliefs by Bible scriptures, lead you away from the faith by Philosophies of men.
We have other warnings in the Christian Greek Scriptures, 1Cor 10:20-22, 2Cor 6:14-18, Col 2:20-32. Isa 8:19-22.
 

Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
AVI1001,
If you claim to be a Christian, you will have nothing to do with people who are diametrically opposed to Jehovah God, the Almighty God, who created everything.

I am a Jew not a Christian.

The Creator has given us His way of thinking about such things. Consider Deut 18:10-14. The reason is, this kind of thinking could, if you are not a very strong Christian, and are able to defend your beliefs by Bible scriptures, lead you away from the faith by Philosophies of men.
We have other warnings in the Christian Greek Scriptures, 1Cor 10:20-22, 2Cor 6:14-18, Col 2:20-32. Isa 8:19-22.

This idea sounds isolationist to me. Are you afraid that by just reading others ideas that you will automatically adopt them ? Don't you have the ability to use critical thinking skills ?
 
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