John's Word: Did Jesus create the world?

[embig1]

The Bible's word is very sound and consistent. There is no evidence for "millions of year" other than man's opinion. Even in the English language the word day is used in many ways: 1. He is one day old. 2. In his day no one had a TV. 3. One day I'll be retired... The word for day (yom) used in Genesis 1 was clearly defined as a single earthly day. When you compare the original language to see where the same word is used, it is general used to mean a 24 hour day. Also, Genesis 1 goes the extra step to tell us it is a 24 hour day by painstakingly pointing out that "there was evening and morning" each day.

The verse, 2 Peter 3:8, says "A day is LIKE", not "A day IS a thousand years." This verse is emphasizing the need for patience. God has no beginning and no end and our concept of time confuses our understanding of Him sometimes.

As to the sun and stars being so young (6000 +/- years), Genesis 1 very clearly states that they were created. You want physical evidence of a young earth: Consider the rate of decay of the earth's magnetic field, there is no way it could be millions of years old. Consider population growth rates; they line up with the Bible and a young earth; if man is millions of years old, where are the bones? Consider laws of thermodynamics that are never broken, but must be for evolution to happen.

If you are looking for proof of the truth of Genesis, study hyperbaric medicine and the scientific findings related to it. Then study the account of creation (where are the waters), where are dinosaurs mentioned in the Bible (before or after the flood); when did people live longer (before or after the flood and the loss of atmospheric pressure due to the flood), etc. etc. ... See if you understand science, you know that a person can almost always use it to support their point of view. If you read and study the Bible, you will not find any factual and hard evidence to dispute it.

 

[led by the spirit]

Its when someone tries to support their own points of view that the scriptures start contradicting or just not make sense at all. Man is not as old as the earth.The earth could be millions of yrs old who knows?Archeology proves the existance of Dino's way back then but not man.The bible does clue us in on some sort of war in the heavens and perhaps that led to the extinction of the dino's, then much later the creation of man in Their likeness( The Father and Jesus).But who knows the length of mankind before the deluge? Certainly not no mention of Dino's ? We wouldnt stand a chance against them anyway,we would be extinct because of them.Little spears and torches would not even measure up to what hollywood would have it now would it?

 

[Wandered Off]

As to the sun and stars being so young (6000 +/- years), Genesis 1 very clearly states that they were created. You want physical evidence of a young earth: Consider the rate of decay of the earth's magnetic field, there is no way it could be millions of years old. Consider population growth rates; they line up with the Bible and a young earth; if man is millions of years old, where are the bones? Consider laws of thermodynamics that are never broken, but must be for evolution to happen.

How are objects more than 6,000 light-years away visible to us now?

 

[AK4]

When we come across the Biblical creation, we normally usually assume we are talking about the few chapters of the Genesis. God created the world, creature and man in 6 days, and then narrative about Adam and Eve.

The Christians also believed in the New Testament, particularly what is found in the Gospel according to John, chapter 1, verses 1-18. It associate the Word (as well as the Light) with Jesus.

Now that not unusual. Authors in the past and present, have long compared figure or character with animals (eg. strong like lion), with elements (eg. she ran like the wind) or even with inanimated objects. The Egyptians have compared and associated their gods with certain animals, eg. Horus as falcon, Wadjet with cobra, etc.

What John says:

Word is Jesus; this is implied with God was made flesh and lived among them (humans). [1:14]

It says that the Word is God (which is the reason why some Christians believed that Jesus is God), and the Word is with God. [1:1]

The Word is God's "only begotten son". [1:18] (Which to my mind, contradicts Word being God from 1:1; can a father be a son?)

Word existed before the world was ever created. [1:2]

And that the Word was involved in the creation: [1:3]



Well, I want to a poll on John's version.

Do you believe what John wrote literally? That Jesus have existed before the creation, and was involved with the creation?

Or do you believe that can only be understood as a metaphor?

There are many verses to show Jesus existed before He emptied Himslef into Mary. Yes that was Jesus back there in Genesis, but also there is the event mentioned in Job and here in Rev 3:14

3:14 - [In Context|Original Greek]
"To R229 the angel of the church in Laodicea R230 write: The R231 Amen, the R232 faithful and true Witness, the R233 Beginning F39 of the creation of God, says this:

 

[Riverwolf]

I voted "other." The Word, in the form of the Word, is not a being, but a sound (a vibration), which, according to John, "became flesh," for this vibration is God.

"In the Beginning, was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1)
"In the beginning was Prajapati, with Him was the Word, and the Word was truly the Supreme Brahman.” (Yajur Veda)

I believe the Word to be AUM. I believe that it was by and through this sound that all things came into being. I believe that this is the meaning of John's prologue.

 

[embig1]

How are objects more than 6,000 light-years away visible to us now?

That is a good question. It requires consideration of many advanced topics of physics and the concept of naturalism. Below is a link to an article that discusses some of them. The article also discusses light travel as part of the big-bang theory. Here is a quote from that article:

"The critic may suggest that the big bang is a better explanation of origins than the Bible since biblical creation has a light travel-time problem—distant starlight. But such an argument is not rational since the big bang has a light travel-time problem of its own. If both models have the same problem in essence, then that problem cannot be used to support one model over the other. Therefore, distant starlight cannot be used to dismiss the Bible in favor of the big bang."

I think it's an interesting read.
I can't post a link, but do a google search for "answers in genesis distant starlight". The article I'm talking about should be the first link.
Great question to ponder!

 

[Michel07]

In Genesis we see that God speaks the universe into existing. The Logos is the organizing, rationalizing agent of God. The world was created through him, or by him, but he himself is not the creator in the strict sense. The Father created by means of him.

In Genesis there is also the scripture Gn 1;26.." Then God said:' Let us make man in our image..' which I believe to be a reflection of the eternal Holy Trinity.

 

[gnostic]

Light, by the way is not only limited to the sun.

Sure.

However, Genesis mention a "evening" and a "morning" that make up a single day. And it is the sun that provides the morning or daylight, and sunset allow it for evening to take place:

3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

So what possible source of light that provided the "morning" or "day", if it is not the sun.

There may be no sun in the arctic regions for weeks and months, but the people who wrote the Genesis didn't live in that region. Most of the population in the world don't live in those regions. There is still the sun, but people who lived in those regions just don't see for a period.

And this is the not case with the Bible in any case. In the case, with the bible, the sun didn't exist at all, until the 4th day.

And Genesis 1:5 mentioned just a morning and evening, that make up a day. It doesn't mention more than 1 day, hundred days, thousands of days, let alone a thousand year. Just ONE fricking day.

 

[idea]

I voted other. Jesus formed the world under the direction of Heavenly Father. Under the Father's direction, with the Father's power, Jesus was the day labor / contractor / technician of it.

 

[idea]

In Genesis there is also the scripture Gn 1;26.." Then God said:' Let us make man in our image..' which I believe to be a reflection of the eternal Holy Trinity.

not just man - mankind in Their image,

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
(Old Testament | Genesis 1:26 - 27)


God is a mistranslation. Should read Gods. Eloheim is a plural word. (the m makes it plural)

The multiple beings who created everything, created mankind in their image - male and female. A female was also involved in creating mankind.

 

[Michel07]

not just man - mankind in Their image,

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
(Old Testament | Genesis1:26 - 27)


God is a mistranslation. Should read Gods. Eloheim is a plural word. (the m makes it plural)

The multiple beings who created everything, created mankind in their image - male and female. A female was also involved in creating mankind.

I do not prescribe to your understanding of engendering God because God is spirit. I believe that the engendering of "man" in the collective sense is one relative to the next scripture Gen 1:28 " God blessed them, saying; be fertile and multiply; ..."

 

[Muffled]

I voted "other." The Word, in the form of the Word, is not a being, but a sound (a vibration), which, according to John, "became flesh," for this vibration is God.

"In the Beginning, was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1)
"In the beginning was Prajapati, with Him was the Word, and the Word was truly the Supreme Brahman.” (Yajur Veda)

I believe the Word to be AUM. I believe that it was by and through this sound that all things came into being. I believe that this is the meaning of John's prologue.

I have heard the Aum sound in my spirit. It is not the mind of God but a breathing out and in of the universe.

God's intelligence is the essence of God. It is an amazing mind that has the power to conceptualize everything into being. The physical mind of man is not able to perceive in the same way as the mind of God so unless God tampered with the physical mind of Jesus when He created Him that mind would still not be able to fully comprehend the mind of the spirit of God which was resident in Him.

To say that Jesus is present at creation neglects the reality that the body of Jesus was created at a specific place at a specific time. The resident spirit of God however which is the conscious spirit in Jesus is the creator. The idea that there is another spirit (Eph 4:4 says there is one) of Jesus co-creating with God has no Biblical basis.

 

[Michel07]

I have heard the Aum sound in my spirit. It is not the mind of God but a breathing out and in of the universe.

God's intelligence is the essence of God. It is an amazing mind that has the power to conceptualize everything into being. The physical mind of man is not able to perceive in the same way as the mind of God so unless God tampered with the physical mind of Jesus when He created Him that mind would still not be able to fully comprehend the mind of the spirit of God which was resident in Him.

To say that Jesus is present at creation neglects the reality that the body of Jesus was created at a specific place at a specific time. The resident spirit of God however which is the conscious spirit in Jesus is the creator. The idea that there is another spirit (Eph 4:4 says there is one) of Jesus co-creating with God has no Biblical basis.

John 1, 1-5 as elsewhere in the Bible teaches the preexistence of Jesus Christ, the incarnate Logos, who reveals God the Father. It is important to remember that Christian teaching is that it is not Jesus Christ the man who became divine but the Divine who humbled Himself to become man for a time in Jesus. Thinking strictly in chronological terms does not apply to the eternal.

 

[gnostic]

I do not prescribe to your understanding of engendering God because God is spirit. I believe that the engendering of "man" in the collective sense is one relative to the next scripture Gen 1:28 " God blessed them, saying; be fertile and multiply; ..."

Spirit or not, the gospels itself have the tendency to have the god "engender", and a number of examples of this comes from Jesus' own mouth. He called God "Father" a number of times, hence hinting that God is a masculine being, with the ability to procreate.

And according to the gospels, Matthew and Luke, the Holy Spirit engendered (or beget) Jesus, through the so-called immaculate conception, which you Catholics have been promoting for centuries. And Jesus is frequently called the son of god, or the "God's only begotten son".

I personally don't think it is possible, but why do you think that it is not possible for spirit to engender, when clearly the bible state it is possible?

Then there is the case with (fallen) angels, known as the Watchers (or Griogri), who fathered children upon mortal women in Genesis 6.

Either "engendering" is possible between spirits and mortals, or is not. Which is it?

 

[gnostic]

John 1, 1-5 as elsewhere in the Bible teaches the preexistence of Jesus Christ, the incarnate Logos, who reveals God the Father.

Sorry, but I only see the pre-existence of Jesus only in John, and few implied references here and there in other gospels, but nothing in the Old Testament. Can you provide sources to support your assertion.

 

[Michel07]

Sorry, but I only see the pre-existence of Jesus only in John, and few implied references here and there in other gospels, but nothing in the Old Testament. Can you provide sources to support your assertion.

Sorry but the last time I looked the NT was in the Bible. How many times would it have to be said in the Bible for you to believe it? You don't have to answer that because I think I already know the answer. You don't have a big record as being a big believer in the OT either so why even bring that illusory argument?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

God created the Universe and set the creation in motion...
The world is a very small part of that creation.
If God subcontracted the terraforming of Earth to Jesus, I have not heard about it.

Genesis is pure myth.
John was simply bringing that myth up to date
I have no problem with that.

I believe in God and Jesus, however the details of the Creation are not substantiated.

 

[Michel07]

Spirit or not, the gospels itself have the tendency to have the god "engender", and a number of examples of this comes from Jesus' own mouth. He called God "Father" a number of times, hence hinting that God is a masculine being, with the ability to procreate.

And according to the gospels, Matthew and Luke, the Holy Spirit engendered (or beget) Jesus, through the so-called immaculate conception, which you Catholics have been promoting for centuries. And Jesus is frequently called the son of god, or the "God's only begotten son".

I personally don't think it is possible, but why do you think that it is not possible for spirit to engender, when clearly the bible state it is possible?

Then there is the case with (fallen) angels, known as the Watchers (or Griogri), who fathered children upon mortal women in Genesis 6.

Either "engendering" is possible between spirits and mortals, or is not. Which is it?

I was responding to the allegation in post 31 that a female was involved in the creation of mankind. That is applying the laws of physics and nature to the metaphysical and supernatural. What I am saying is that I am hardly convinced of such constricts to God. I believe that what we have been taught of God has been done so in a manner that we are able to understand such as the relationship between father and son or children. But can the mind of any mortal fully understand the metaphysical? No. Nevertheless God has revealed Himself through Christ in ways that we can understand and probably to that degree.

 

[deejay]

John chapter 1 is not the only Biblical evidence of Jesus as the creator.
Colossians 1:13-17 identifies "the Son" as the one by whom all things were created and that he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Hebrews 1:2 identifies the Son as by whom also he made the worlds.

Regarding the pre-existance of Jesus (as God) John 8:38 quotes Jesus as saying "Before Abraham was, I am." The next verse has the Jews picking up stones to kill him.
Why were they so upset?
Ex 3:14 has God telling Moses that his name is I AM.

One more text to consider. Isaiah 33:22 identifies the Lord as judge, lawgiver, king, and he will save us (savior).
Elsewhere in scripture (John 5:22)Jesus is identified as the judge,
king (Rev. 17:14), and saviour (Luke 2:11).
This text would seem to imply that Jesus was the lawgiver, unless one dissects out the one description to apply to the Father and the other three to apply to the Son.
There would seem to be no scriptural or textural reason to do this.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I vote no, because it's obvious if you read on in the chapter, the word created Jesus. It says the word became flesh, and then says, no man has seen god at anytime. The word created Jesus, that was the word becoming flesh. Jesus is a created being. When it says the word is God in John 1:1 it means that God spoke a word to create everything, of course the word he speaks is himself. Jesus was created by that word.