John's Word: Did Jesus create the world?

[gzusfrk]

When we come across the Biblical creation, we normally usually assume we are talking about the few chapters of the Genesis. God created the world, creature and man in 6 days, and then narrative about Adam and Eve.

The Christians also believed in the New Testament, particularly what is found in the Gospel according to John, chapter 1, verses 1-18. It associate the Word (as well as the Light) with Jesus.

Now that not unusual. Authors in the past and present, have long compared figure or character with animals (eg. strong like lion), with elements (eg. she ran like the wind) or even with inanimated objects. The Egyptians have compared and associated their gods with certain animals, eg. Horus as falcon, Wadjet with cobra, etc.

What John says:

Word is Jesus; this is implied with God was made flesh and lived among them (humans). [1:14]

It says that the Word is God (which is the reason why some Christians believed that Jesus is God), and the Word is with God. [1:1]

The Word is God's "only begotten son". [1:18] (Which to my mind, contradicts Word being God from 1:1; can a father be a son?)

Word existed before the world was ever created. [1:2]

And that the Word was involved in the creation: [1:3]



Well, I want to a poll on John's version.

Do you believe what John wrote literally? That Jesus have existed before the creation, and was involved with the creation?

Or do you believe that can only be understood as a metaphor?

Most People dont really realize what they hold in there hands when the have the New Testament, The WORD of God. When God said the Words Let there be light, there was light. God Words are alive according to the NT. HEB 4:12 also in James, And 1 peter The Word cuts to the heart in ways, we are not even aware of, nor able to comprehed. Jesus is the Word.

 

[sincerly]

Not all the verses of Bible are clear in a sense that they are literal. As the Scriptures says in many places 'the Book is sealed", and "The Bible is veiled".
There are many symbolic verses that their meaning is to be discovered with spiritual eye.

There are symbolic/metaphoric verses in the Bible, and they are understood by the context in which they are found. They can have literal and spiritual significance

In my view, Jesus created spirituality in His time. That spirituality had died before Him, so He came to bring it back and renew the world.

Ok, that's your view, but it is scripturally false, because HE used parables to teach the reality of the Truths of the previous teachings given by GOD personally and through the prophets.
The "renewed world"(earth made new), will not occur until after the millennial period ends.

He said: "before Abraham I am", in our view, by this is meant that other Prophets before Jesus are all considered to be the same reality.
In this sense every Manifestation of God is the return of others and every prophet is the return of all other prophets, as it is explained in the Scriptures John the Baptist was the Return of Elijah.

Jesus taught that that assumption was false, "If you will".

So, when It is said by Him all has been created, that means through Him who always existed, as other prophets and Manifestations of God, the world of spirituality was created. This creation is greater and more real, than the physical existence of the world, for no one can live forever in this physical world, but the Spirit of Men are living in the Spiritual Worlds of God.

By "Spirit of Men are living ", you have again assumed a non-scriptural belief. There is nothing but dust/ashes left of a person following the first death. (as first seen in Gen.3:19)

Not everything in them are valid. For example slavery in Bible is not prohibited, but only stealing men and selling them is. Another example is, the Bible does not allow Women to speak in the church the way men can. These laws are old.
But the Spiritual teachings of Bible are valid and will be always valid.

And spiritually we are slaves either to GOD and righteousness OR to the master of sin and evil.
True the principles of the Bible are/is the "Everlasting Gospel" because they are spiritually discerned.

The Bab fulfilled the Prophecies regarding the return of Elijah, in the exact time and place as it was prophesied in the scriptures. His teachings are in perfect agreement with previous Scriptures.
The false teachers that bible talks about are among Christians, for He says among 'you'. But the Bab was not born in a Christian Family, so surely that does not apply to Him.

Not so. The Elijah message was the fore-runner to Jesus Christ as prophesied; and that was hundreds of years before the "Bab". Nor do the "Babs" teaching parallel those of Jesus Christ.
1+2 Peter says your assumption of the "you" is false. Also. the falseness of the "Babs" teaching is what is being warned against.

Believe that which you choose.

 

[Katzpur]

Do you believe what John wrote literally? That Jesus have existed before the creation, and was involved with the creation?

I believe that Jesus existed "in the beginning" -- or, in other words, prior to the creation. I believe that He created our universe under the direction of His Father.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Ok, that's your view, but it is scripturally false, because HE used parables to teach the reality of the Truths of the previous teachings given by GOD personally and through the prophets.
The "renewed world"(earth made new), will not occur until after the millennial period ends.

In our view the end of Age is passed and New Age has come. If you calculate it from the Prophecies of Ezekiel, it ended in 1844.

"Now the new age is here and creation is reborn. Humanity hath taken on new life. The autumn hath gone by, and the reviving spring is here. All things are now made new. Arts and industries have been reborn, there are new discoveries in science, and there are new inventions; even the details of human affairs, such as dress and personal effects—even weapons—all these have likewise been renewed. The laws and procedures of every government have been revised. Renewal is the order of the day.
And all this newness hath its source in the fresh outpourings of wondrous grace and favour from the Lord of the Kingdom, which have renewed the world."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Pages 252-253



Moreover, Jesus said:

"and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Mat 28:20

Meaning not after the end of the Age anymore. Because every Age has it's own Revelation.

By "Spirit of Men are living ", you have again assumed a non-scriptural belief. There is nothing but dust/ashes left of a person following the first death. (as first seen in Gen.3:19)

Now, this verse is symbolic.

And spiritually we are slaves either to GOD and righteousness OR to the master of sin and evil.
True the principles of the Bible are/is the "Everlasting Gospel" because they are spiritually discerned.

True. But Jesus said He still have many things to say, when the Spirit of truth comes He shall 'hear' and 'say'

That is a Person who has ears to hear, and a Mouth to say. That was Baha'u'llah in our view.

Not so. The Elijah message was the fore-runner to Jesus Christ as prophesied; and that was hundreds of years before the "Bab". Nor do the "Babs" teaching parallel those of Jesus Christ.

Elijah came before Jesus. But also would come again, as Jesus said:

"Jesus responded, "Elijah does come first and will restore all things." Mat. 17:11

And that is fulfilled as Baha'u'llah, the Spirit of truth revealed:

"O followers of the Son! We have once again sent John unto you, and He, verily, hath cried out in the wilderness of the Bayán: O peoples of the world! Cleanse your eyes! The Day whereon ye can behold the Promised One and attain unto Him hath drawn nigh! O followers of the Gospel! Prepare the way! The Day of the advent of the Glorious Lord is at hand! Make ready to enter the Kingdom. Thus hath it been ordained by God, He Who causeth the dawn to break." The summons of the Lord of Hosts

Believe that which you choose.

You too my friend.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly
Ok, that's your view, but it is scripturally false, because HE used parables to teach the reality of the Truths of the previous teachings given by GOD personally and through the prophets.
The "renewed world"(earth made new), will not occur until after the millennial period ends.

In our view the end of Age is passed and New Age has come. If you calculate it from the Prophecies of Ezekiel, it ended in 1844.

Hi I T, those selected writings from "Bahá'í Reference Library" are contrary to the Scriptures and teachings of Jesus. Muhammad before him was seen as false even with the large following he amassed over the "ages".

"Now the new age is here and creation is reborn. Humanity hath taken on new life. The autumn hath gone by, and the reviving spring is here. All things are now made new. Arts and industries have been reborn, there are new discoveries in science, and there are new inventions; even the details of human affairs, such as dress and personal effects—even weapons—all these have likewise been renewed. The laws and procedures of every government have been revised. Renewal is the order of the day.
And all this newness hath its source in the fresh outpourings of wondrous grace and favour from the Lord of the Kingdom, which have renewed the world."

And by all that technology, there is supposed be be a greater awakening of the knowledge of GOD by the peoples of the world??
To the contrary, The Scriptures attest to a worsening spiritually of the masses---in that "they will turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" Bab being one of the latest.

Moreover, Jesus said: "and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Mat 28:20

Meaning not after the end of the Age anymore. Because every Age has it's own Revelation.[/quote]

I T, the GOD of the Bible/Scriptures declares that the Messages from GOD are Truth and enduring, not subject to waxing old or fading away. Just as GOD is unchanging and from everlasting unto everlasting.

Every age does have its share of false teachers/prophets,"sheep in wolves clothing."----as is the Bab.

Now, this verse is symbolic.

Strange, physical death that has come in the past has not just been "symbolic' , but very real and those who have died are deteriorating back to the elements they were composed of.

True. But Jesus said He still have many things to say, when the Spirit of truth comes He shall 'hear' and 'say'

Yes, the Holy Spirit was present 2000 years ago, and is still guiding all who will hear and do the things which Jesus Christ taught----"teach the whatsoever I have told you". Not as "Bab" has claimed.

Elijah came before Jesus. But also would come again, as Jesus said:
"Jesus responded, "Elijah does come first and will restore all things." Mat. 17:11
And that is fulfilled as Baha'u'llah, the Spirit of truth revealed:

"O followers of the Son! We have once again sent John unto you, and He, verily, hath cried out in the wilderness of the Bayán: O peoples of the world! Cleanse your eyes! The Day whereon ye can behold the Promised One and attain unto Him hath drawn nigh! O followers of the Gospel! Prepare the way! The Day of the advent of the Glorious Lord is at hand! Make ready to enter the Kingdom. Thus hath it been ordained by God, He Who causeth the dawn to break." The summons of the Lord of Hosts"

The Scriptures do not claim that there will be another "coming of Elijah/John the Baptist". You are claiming falsely the meanings of the Scriptures as did that serpent in the Garden of Eden.

see Matt.11:7-14.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Hi sincerely,

According to the Scriptures, the Book is sealed till the end of Time, until the Promised One comes to explain the Mysteries in it. Your understanding of Scriptures comes from some of the Christian Leaders who interpreted many things in a literal way. They could not possibly know the meaning of the Scriptures, as it was sealed with seven seales.
Baha'u'llah fulfilled this Prophecy and opend the seales of it. Explaining in great detail the meaning of the Words of Jesus, and the Prophecies.

In our view the situation is very similar to the first coming of Christ. The Jewish Leaders had interpreted many things literally, so when Jesus came, He appeared in a way, that was contrary to what they expected the Messiah to be. For example they expeted Him to be a King with a Sword. But Jesus was carpenter with no Sword.
The second coming in our view was the same way. Your religious leaders interpreted everything literally, hence they have had difficaulties recognizing Him.
A Revelation is a Test. Those who recognize it pass the Test, those who cannot recognize it they have failed. Even if they had accepted previous Prophets, or even Jesus as the Messiah. Because how can those who say we believe in Jesus, when He has returned with a new name, cannot recognize Him? As Jesus said you know Them by their Fruits.

I quote Baha'u'llah on some of the comments you made above:

"Inasmuch as the Christian divines have failed to apprehend the meaning of these words, and did not recognize their object and purpose, and have clung to the literal interpretation of the words of Jesus, they therefore became deprived of the streaming grace of the Mu[FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman][FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]ḥ[/FONT][/FONT]ammadan Revelation and its showering bounties. The ignorant among the Christian community, following the example of the leaders of their faith, were likewise prevented from beholding the beauty of the King of glory, inasmuch as those signs which were to accompany the dawn of the sun of the Mu[FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman][FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]ḥ[/FONT][/FONT]ammadan Dispensation did not actually come to pass. Thus, ages have passed and centuries rolled away, and that most pure Spirit hath repaired unto the retreats of its ancient sovereignty. Once more hath the eternal Spirit breathed into the mystic trumpet, and caused the dead to speed out of their sepulchres of heedlessness and error unto the realm of guidance and grace. And yet, that expectant community still crieth out: When shall these things be? When shall the promised One, the object of our expectation, be made manifest, that we may arise for the triumph of His Cause, that we may sacrifice our substance for His sake, that we may offer up our lives in His path? In like manner, have such false imaginings caused other communities to stray from the Kawthar of the infinite mercy of Providence, and to be busied with their own idle thoughts.

Beside this passage, there is yet another verse in the Gospel wherein He saith: "Heaven and earth shall pass away: but My words shall not pass away."* Thus it is that the adherents of Jesus maintained that the law of the Gospel shall never be annulled, and that whensoever the promised Beauty is made manifest and all the signs are revealed, He must needs re-affirm and establish the law proclaimed in the Gospel, so that there may remain in the world no faith but His faith. This is their fundamental belief. And their conviction is such that were a person to be made manifest with all the promised signs and to promulgate that which is contrary to the letter of the law of the Gospel, they must assuredly renounce him, refuse to submit to his law, declare him an infidel, and laugh him to scorn. This is proved by that which came to pass when the sun of the Mu[FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman][FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]ḥ[/FONT][/FONT]ammadan Revelation was revealed. Had they sought with a humble mind from the Manifestations of God in every Dispensation the true meaning of these words revealed in the sacred books—words the misapprehension of which hath caused men to be deprived of the recognition of the Sadratu’l-Muntahá, the ultimate Purpose—they surely would have been guided to the light of the Sun of Truth, and would have discovered the mysteries of divine knowledge and wisdom. "
Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 3-41​

 

[sincerly]

Hi sincerely,

According to the Scriptures, the Book is sealed till the end of Time, until the Promised One comes to explain the Mysteries in it. Your understanding of Scriptures comes from some of the Christian Leaders who interpreted many things in a literal way. They could not possibly know the meaning of the Scriptures, as it was sealed with seven seales.

Hi I T, The Book of Revelation was an open book. The book with the seals you are presenting have been in the process of being opened. We are living in the days the sixth seal is revealing and the conditions for the last seal to be opened are fastly approaching.

Baha'u'llah fulfilled this Prophecy and opend the seales of it. Explaining in great detail the meaning of the Words of Jesus, and the Prophecies.

In our view

I T, you are free to believe/"in our view" anything that pleases you; however, the prophecy was fulfilled as the Scriptures attest by "the Lamb that was slain"---Jesus Christ. Not the "Bab". Rev.5

The Baha"i and "Mu[FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman][FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]ḥ[/FONT][/FONT]ammadan Revelation" are just one?? of the many false "beliefs" which compete with the Truth of the Creator GOD.
It is not the only one to use a twisting of the Holy teachings of GOD to flavor their erroneous beliefs.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Hi I T, The Book of Revelation was an open book. The book with the seals you are presenting have been in the process of being opened. We are living in the days the sixth seal is revealing and the conditions for the last seal to be opened are fastly approaching.

Hi Sincerly, This has no basis. Which denomination believes this as you say 6th seals are open.... According to the Prophecies the year was 1844 (reference upon request)

I T, you are free to believe/"in our view" anything that pleases you; however, the prophecy was fulfilled as the Scriptures attest by "the Lamb that was slain"---Jesus Christ. Not the "Bab". Rev.5

Prophecies by definition means future. The Book of Revelation is a Prophecy Book written after Jesus was crucified. So, this Lamb cannot be literally Jesus. But it is His return in a Spiritual Sense, just as John was the Return of Elijah.

Even as the verses says:


Rev. 5:12 "Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing."

Obviously Jesus was given Wisdom before. This is another Person that is worthy to be given Wisdom to Him. It is considered to be the Return of Jesus (The Lamb that was slain)​

The Baha"i and "Mu[FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman][FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]ḥ[/FONT][/FONT]ammadan Revelation" are just one??​

No, they are not. The Relation between Islam and Baha'i, is like, Relation between Jewish Faith and Christianity, or the relation between Hinduism and Buddhism.​

of the many false "beliefs" which compete with the Truth of the Creator GOD. ​

That's just your opinion. and you are welcome to have it my friend.​

It is not the only one to use a twisting of the Holy teachings of GOD to flavor their erroneous beliefs.​

You are just saying things. Yet have not been able to prove what you say ​

Peace.​

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly
Hi I T, The Book of Revelation was an open book. The book with the seals you are presenting have been in the process of being opened. We are living in the days the sixth seal is revealing and the conditions for the last seal to be opened are fastly approaching.

Hi Sincerly, This has no basis. Which denomination believes this as you say 6th seals are open.... According to the Prophecies the year was 1844 (reference upon request)

"No Basis??" Rev. 22:10. "And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand."
Who was the book of Revelation given to and by whom was it to be delivered and who authored it?? Rev.21:1. "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which GOD gave unto HIM to shew unto HIS servants things which must shortly come to pass; and HE sent and signified it by HIS Angel unto HIS servant John."

How soon were these things to start occurring?? John was in exile when the Revelation was given.
Paul spoke to the Elders of Ephesus (Acts20:29-30), "For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them."
And within 40 years, John writes the message from Jesus, Rev.2:4, "Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love."

Where has Jesus been since HIS Resurrection and ascension? Col,3:1, "If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God". (Also, Acts 7:55-56; Rom.8:34; Eph.1:20; Heb.1:3; 10:12; 12:2; 1Pet.3:22)

Bab is/was a pretense. Jesus is the guiding salvational force of the Father and has been "before the foundation was laid of the world ".

​

​

​

 

[Upcountry]

Just managed to join.

I wanted to comment that the curse on Eden was "for thy sake" (Genesis 3:`17) which could mean to protect you (Adam and Eve) rather than because of you. But I missed that thread.

 

[sincerly]

Just managed to join.

I wanted to comment that the curse on Eden was "for thy sake" (Genesis 3:`17) which could mean to protect you (Adam and Eve) rather than because of you. But I missed that thread.

Hi Upcountry, and welcome to the Forums. Also, thanks for bringing the thread at least back to the creation.

The curse was upon the ground of the earth--for "your sake"---was a reminder to mankind that each day that mankind labored in/with the ground---he would be reminded of why the laboring was given and that the Lord GOD who Created all things is still in charge.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Originally Posted by sincerly
Hi I T, The Book of Revelation was an open book. The book with the seals you are presenting have been in the process of being opened. We are living in the days the sixth seal is revealing and the conditions for the last seal to be opened are fastly approaching.




"No Basis??" Rev. 22:10. "And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand."
Who was the book of Revelation given to and by whom was it to be delivered and who authored it?? Rev.21:1. "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which GOD gave unto HIM to shew unto HIS servants things which must shortly come to pass; and HE sent and signified it by HIS Angel unto HIS servant John."

How soon were these things to start occurring?? John was in exile when the Revelation was given.
Paul spoke to the Elders of Ephesus (Acts20:29-30), "For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them."
And within 40 years, John writes the message from Jesus, Rev.2:4, "Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love."

Hi Sincerely, None of the above makes the point you are trying to make regarding 'the sixth seal was open"

Rev. 22:10. "And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand."

The above prophecy is about the end time, that what would happen prior to return of Christ. the expression "For the Time is at hand", is related to the 'Herald' of Christ. Just as John the Baptist was the Herald of Jesus who said the 'Time is at hand', likewise The Bab, appeared before Baha'u'llah who said "The time is at Hand". Meaning the time of Comming of the Lord is at Hand. the first part of the verse " Seal not the sayings of the prophecy ", is related to the same anouncement. Meaning He, the Herald, is anouncing that now is time to unseal the mysteries of the Book, since the coming of the Promised One is near. Both are fulfilled by the Bab, and Baha'u'llah.

Where has Jesus been since HIS Resurrection and ascension? Col,3:1, "If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God". (Also, Acts 7:55-56; Rom.8:34; Eph.1:20; Heb.1:3; 10:12; 12:2; 1Pet.3:22)

Regarding the Resurrection of Christ, I have discussed this with other Christians and I refuted the 'Physical' Resurrection. See here (from post #41):

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...ristians-what-purpose-day-resurrection-5.html

Bab is/was a pretense. Jesus is the guiding salvational force of the Father and has been "before the foundation was laid of the world ".

I feel we are getting out of the topic of the thread. But briefly, the Bab's coming was promised in Bible. He appeared with exact time and place that was prophecied in Bible.
Moreover, He prophecied of future events and they came to pass very accurately.
I don't mind discussing this more in another thread if you were interested.

 

[sincerly]

Hi Sincerely, http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...ristians-what-purpose-day-resurrection-5.html


I feel we are getting out of the topic of the thread. But briefly, the Bab's coming was promised in Bible. He appeared with exact time and place that was prophesied in Bible.
Moreover, He prophesied of future events and they came to pass very accurately.
I don't mind discussing this more in another thread if you were interested.

Hi IT, as you posted, there is already a post for that purpose and on the correct forum.
At the Present, I have enough topics to cover without adding another which I have shown to be false. However, If things become to slow here, I'll be happy to tell/give you more evidence from the "Everlasting Gospel" that Baha'i' is just another false distraction. The Real Creator GOD and HIS Promised Messiah(Jesus) has accomplished that which was Prophesied and is now awaiting for the last person to be Saved to Repent and submit to the Will of the Father.

 

[MusaaEl-Haadi]

The Prophet / Messiah Isa , Yashu'a , Jesus Christ , Never Said anything in the Bible and this is why he didn't .

All four Gospels was written ( A Number Of Years Apart ) .

Matthew 41 A.D. 8 years after the Supppised Crucifixion .
Luke 58 A.D. 25 years after the Supppised Crucifixion .
Mark 65 A.D. 32 years after the Supppised Crucifixion .
John 98 A.D. 65 years after the Supppised Crucifixion .

More in next post .

 

[sincerly]

The Prophet / Messiah Isa , Yashu'a , Jesus Christ , Never Said anything in the Bible and this is why he didn't .

All four Gospels was written ( A Number Of Years Apart ) .

Matthew 41 A.D. 8 years after the Supppised Crucifixion .
Luke 58 A.D. 25 years after the Supppised Crucifixion .
Mark 65 A.D. 32 years after the Supppised Crucifixion .
John 98 A.D. 65 years after the Supppised Crucifixion .

More in next post .

Hi MH, welcome to the forums.

The Scriptures which we are debating/discussing attest to the reality of the crucifixion and the reason for the crucifixion.

Yes, each writer "took in hand" as inspired to "set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us".
Those things which were witnessed and lived wasn't the figment of one's imagination, but were recorded for believers from that period of history to today and the tomorrows to come.
John did write "Revelation" about the time you posted, but the "Gospel" of John was written before AD70.

 

[MusaaEl-Haadi]

Hi MH, welcome to the forums.

The Scriptures which we are debating/discussing attest to the reality of the crucifixion and the reason for the crucifixion.

Yes, each writer "took in hand" as inspired to "set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us".
Those things which were witnessed and lived wasn't the figment of one's imagination, but were recorded for believers from that period of history to today and the tomorrows to come.
John did write "Revelation" about the time you posted, but the "Gospel" of John was written before AD70.

Thankyou from your answer