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Featured Jesus vs the New Testament

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Disciple of Jesus, Mar 10, 2019.

?

New testament representative of Jesus?

Poll closed Jun 18, 2019.
  1. Yes

    66.7%
  2. No

    13.3%
  3. Somewhat, more representative

    13.3%
  4. Somewhat, less representative

    20.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Just so.
     
  2. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. I am trying to understand why the tone of each is so very different... and I can't quite put it into words.
     
  3. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    A Christian does not live by the Old Testament.
    If five people gave an identical account of Jesus it wouldn't
    take the skeptics long to say that's not personal impressions
    or eye witness accounts but rather than a priestly redaction.
     
  4. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    No so. Maid also meant virgin. All Jewish maids were meant to
    be virgin. Plenty of young women gave birth, in fact just about
    ALL of them did. This "young maid" was different, she was a
    virgin.
    The bible speaks of the virgin wife, so using the strictest
    sense of 'virgin' as in chaste would not of itself mean much.
    But maid implied one who is chaste.
     
  5. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    I don't follow, other than that losing Jewish context while studying the NT is akin to replacement theology, anti-semitism, and losing all sound doctrine.
     
  6. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Was he an ordinary circumcized Jew born of ordinary parents with no special qualities till his baptism? (Mark.) Was he instead born of a virgin following an annunciation and a divine insemination? (Matthew, Luke) Was there nothing special about his birth except his special nature? (John). Was he a sinner who needed baptism? (Mark) Was he just doing JtB a favor? (Matthew) Was it not worth mentioning? (John) Was he abject and frightened at his crucifixion? (Mark) Was he in a bad way but knew what he was about? (Matthew) Did he give up the 'Why have you forsaken me?' for the much cooler 'Into your hands I commend my spirit'? (Luke) Was he the MC at his own crucifixion? (John) Who went to the tomb? What did they find? Were there guards? Were there none, one or more angels? Who first met the risen Jesus? Second met? Did Jesus ascend at Galilee or in Jerusalem? That night, the next day, in a few days, after 40 days of teaching? It's not just fiction, it's five or six fictions.
     
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  7. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    The Hebrew word in Isaiah is 'almah. It means 'young woman' ─ the Hebrew for virgin is bĕthuwlah (says Strong). However, 'almah got translated into the Greek of the Septuagint as 'parthenos' and that does mean 'virgin'.
     
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  8. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    Friedman calls Richard Nixon a great Statesman.
    Waldron speaks of Nixon as the Watergate, Mafia and CIA plotter.
    Who is right?

    Matthew has Jesus as the teacher, the promised Messiah.
    John saw him as the elder brother
    Mark saw him as a moral man of great deeds
    Luke saw him as the perfect man of humanity
    Who is right?
     
  9. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    It's a good translation - because the MEANING of this 'young woman'(also a translation)
    means someone expected to be chaste, ie a maiden.
    As it was, Mary was not a 'maiden' in our sense of the word. She was a woman come of
    age, about to be married. She was a 'maiden' in the sense of being chaste.
    And a true 'virgin' in the Hebrew vernacular could be a married woman with children.
    But we divine the INTENT of the verse, that a woman who "knows no man" conceives.
     
  10. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Whichever you like, take your pick, it doesn't matter ─ as I keep saying, it's not biography, it's fiction, or rather, multiple fictions.
     
  11. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    There is NO such intent to be found in the wording of Isaiah 7:14. 'almah is simply the feminine of elem, 'young man'. The young woman could as easily be a young wife or any other young woman.

    It's only when the translators for the Septuagint fumble the ball that the author of Matthew reads their error as a messianic prophecy and so sets out to 'correct' Mark by specifying that Mary is a literal virgin, and his story reads accordingly.
     
  12. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    Same with Nixon I suppose. I mean, did he really exist?
     
  13. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, strange that Isaiah said there would be a 'sign' of the Messiah
    and it would be a YOUNG WOMAN giving birth to a son.
    Think about this honestly - is that really a 'sign'? I mean, every young
    woman in Israel could give birth to a son.
    And nearly every newly married woman was 'young' back then, some
    even prepubescent.
    Was Isaiah that stupid?
    Why didn't he say 'virgin' and be done with it? Because virgin didn't
    mean to them what it means to us today. Proof - a 'virgin' could be
    a married mother in Hebrew language.
    No, the context to the sign of Isaiah was that something strange
    would appear to Israel in the birth of this Emmanuel. And yes, it
    turned out to be Jesus and not Emmanuel, but that's another
    story.
    I won't convince you, but I have learned something from this. :)
     
  14. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Why didn't you just read on for a chapter or two? You're making the same error the author of Matthew made. What do you think happens at Isaiah 8:3?

    And just how many young women were intended to conceive as a result of Isaiah 7:14 and bear special children? More than one, you think? Twenty, perhaps? Twenty thousand?
     
  15. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    I'll do that tomorrow. It's good to challenge your own thinking on things.
    Cheers.
    :)
     
  16. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

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    If you believe that a revised tribal listing is 'Jewish context', or read anti- semitism into the direct inference in the Epistles, which never mentions an idea like that, than that is your problem, and it isn't Christian, or even Jewish, as far as I'm concerned.
     
    #196 Disciple of Jesus, Mar 12, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
  17. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

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    The slur of 'replacament theology', shows that you understand neither traditional Jewish belief, or Christian belief, as the texts do not present your interpretation, if you knew more about Judaism you wouldn't even make that association.
    So you're a dabbler, just going with whatever theories are presented to you.
     
  18. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

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    Ahhh...

    Not Jewish Xian, or a Messianic Xian who's Jewish, what your group is something else, so you have sort of a hodge podge of ideas that may not make sense, contextually.
     
    #198 Disciple of Jesus, Mar 12, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
  19. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

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    You might want to tell your priest that

    'Jewish messianic Christianity',

    And

    Anti'"replacement theology" musings don't really go together.
     
  20. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Did you know that 5/6th’s of the bible is about Israel? That is over 83% of our bible. That is an awful lot of the bible to not have a good understanding.
     
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