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Featured Jesus vs the New Testament

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Disciple of Jesus, Mar 10, 2019.

?

New testament representative of Jesus?

This poll will close on Jun 18, 2019 at 1:13 PM.
  1. Yes

    66.7%
  2. No

    13.3%
  3. Somewhat, more representative

    13.3%
  4. Somewhat, less representative

    20.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

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    No idea what that is supposed to mean.
     
  2. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    The Bible is about the Jews from their ancestor Adam to Jesus to the Destruction of the Temple.

    Revelation was so obviously written by an elderly Jewish man.

    "The last book in the New Testament canon, yet in fact one of the oldest; probably the only Judæo-Christian work which has survived the Paulinian transformation of the Church.

    The introductory verse betrays the complicated character of the whole work.

    It presents the book as a "Revelation which God gave . . . to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass," and at the same time as a revelation of Jesus Christ to "his servant John."

    According to recent investigations, the latter part was interpolated by the compiler, who worked the two sections of the book, the main apocalypse (ch. iv.-xxi. 6) and the letters to the "seven churches" (i.-iii. and close of xxii.) into one so as to make the whole appear as emanating from John, the seer of the isle of Patmos in Asia Minor (see i. 9, xxii. 8), known otherwise as John the Presbyter.

    The anti-Paulinian character of the letters to the seven churches and the anti-Roman character of the apocalyptic section have been a source of great embarrassment, especially to Protestant theologians, ever since the days of Luther.

    (Jewish Apocryphal literature was VERY popular for about 300 years.)

    Revelation of John, the original Jewish version. Apocalypse composition, dating & authorship
     
  3. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

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    Christians don't explain how they interpret Revelation 7 in accordance with the Epistles, and neither in accordance with Jewish belief, and neither in accordance with Christian theology, which would not correlate to some odd type of Judaism mysticism.

    In other words, it isn't explained in any context, not just Christian.

    The 'explanation' does not match anything, it's just non christian and weird.


    Like I said, unless it's all the tribes, and Levi combined to make a total of all the tribes, with Levi, then it's very problematic.
     
  4. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Don't you think the people of the first century understood it perfectly?

    144,000 probably just means a big number.
     
  5. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

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    The christian explanations although they do vary a bit, tend to maintain the problematic nature. So that could be your explanation, however it doesn't seem to be the standard christian explanations.

     
  6. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

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    Aside from a 'general idea', concerning worship of other beings.
    • essenes:angeology
    • christianity: angels with freewill
    • Xianity: not a strict association with other beings, to idol worship, necessarily
    • Xianity: imagry and traditions syncretically mixed with other cultures.
     
  7. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    They vary a lot.. Someone thinks Revelation is writing about New York and the Kaiser ..

    If it was written for people thousands of years in the future, why can no one know what it means exactly?
     
  8. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    No it's not Judaism. It's a heresy. Those who believe it are Jews. But they are not practicing Judaism. They are practicing a heresy. Again, that's my opinion. Other Jews in the forum may have differing opinions. You'll have to ask them. But in my book, Judaism has respect for Oral Law. You light shabbat candles. You say Kiddush. Etc.
     
  9. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    You can say it's also about the Gentile mission.
    Taking on board prophecies it's also about the second return of the
    Jews to Israel and the fall of the Gentile churches. The end times if
    you like.

    I suggest you take "links" and "scholarship" on these things for what
    they are - someone's opinion (including mine) I for instance see no
    space between Jesus and Paul - and repudiate this whole business
    of "Pauline Christianity."
     
  10. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Its pretty clear to me that Jesus' mission wasn't to the Gentiles.

    If not for Paul, Christianity may have never gotten off the ground.. Remember he converted the 7 Jewish congregations around the Mediterranean ….
     
  11. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    The Patriarch Jacob, ca 2000 BC, Bronze Age, Egypt.
    "The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from his
    descendants, until the coming of the one to whom it belongs, the one
    whom all nations will honor"

    You have to respect the text. It's all we have.

    Who does the scepter and law really belong to? (Shiloh or the
    Messiah in most translations.)
    "the one whom all nations will honor", or the Gentiles in some
    translations. By implication - the end of the monarchy and law
    mean these are removed from the Jewish people.

    Other authors are much more explicit - everything which belongs
    to the Jews WILL be taken away and the Messiah will be believed
    upon of the Gentiles. Even Jesus said this. His mission was first
    to the Jews, but Jesus told his itinerant ministers they will go out
    into all the world.
     
  12. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    I know the verse, but I don't know what or who Shiloh is.. Devout Muslims will tell you Shiloh is Muhammed.
     
  13. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    Mohamed was a Sixth Century Arab warlord.
    Shiloh is the Jewish (and Gentile!) Messiah. There is first the Messiah
    as Redeemer and then Messiah as King. This kingly Messiah is the
    one who was lowly and rode upon an ***, and who's hands the nation
    of Israel "pierced" (Zachariah's prophecies.)
    Not sure how Mohamed or his followers imagine they fit into this.
    I put Islam on the same level as Mormonism.
     
  14. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Unlike Islam, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints sees Jesus Christ as the Only Begotten Son of God and the sole means by which we might be redeemed of our sins and welcomed back into our Father's presence.
     
  15. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    What I meant was that the Mormons hold that the Christian mission
    failed and needs resetting to symbolic worship of the Old Testament.
    This is what Islam believes also. Most churches just gloss over the
    hard bits of Christian doctrine and example. The Quran and Book of
    Mormon at least confront these issues.
     
  16. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

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    ^

    'g- d concept' is usually relevant to religious discussions.
     
  17. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

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    You said it's judaism, by your own definition, then say it isn't judaism, you can't even not contradict yourself from one sentence to the next.
     
    #217 Disciple of Jesus, Mar 13, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2019
  18. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    How do you know the meaning of Shiloh? Is the word used anywhere else in scripture?
     
  19. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

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    So you say, ...

    ...

    ^

    Clearly, when you say Judaism, you don't mean the religion of Jesus, , and it's confusing concepts, to say that, Jesus practiced Judaism, when you also say heresies and not your form of Judaism , 'aren't Judaism'.
    Your statements are a confused mess, and even if you are a recent convert to judaism, there's no excuse for this.
    That's why you actually need to know that Jesus didn't practice anything close to your form of Judaism, by
    your own statements.
     
    #219 Disciple of Jesus, Mar 13, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2019
  20. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Actually is pretty standard among mainline churches where clergy are college educated.
     
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