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Featured Jesus Resurrection

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Prometheus85, Sep 13, 2018.

  1. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    I dont know how many times i got to correct this misrepresentation of the issues.

    Theres a difference between dying for a belief and dying for what you know.

    The apostles wer in the position to know if the resurrection was true or not true.

    So....if you contend it is NOT true, then you have to explain why the apostles would put themselves in harms way for something they KNEW was false.
     
  2. lukethethird

    lukethethird Active Member

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    True, unless we are reading fiction, and since magic is involved, there is that possibility.
     
  3. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    If its fiction then we got multiple, independent stories speaking the same so called fiction. Both at the time of the fiction, then down the line from the church fathers and down the line from them too.
     
  4. lukethethird

    lukethethird Active Member

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    Yep, turtles all the way down.
     
  5. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    Oh sorry there is zero claim against nature. Are you a southern baptist, ken ham follower because that certainly is how ypu are reading the text. Does ken ham understand anything at all about nature? I would put that at a huge huge no. Since he is clueless about nature why rely on someone like him as your reading expert of the bible? This is the irony of atheism. Why rely on those whom are clearly clueless factually to be their basis of reading the text? Simple morphology should clue a few of them in but no. The bias is they want the clueless to be the expert to disagree with. It feeds their ego. So is your ego feeling pretty fulfilled by allowing the ken hams of the world to be, your bible expert so you can disagree with them? I am sorry but you have no clue about nature other than what ypu have read in a book somewhere. And ypu are simply disagreeing with people who have no clue about the topic god, they have just read it somewhere in a book is all. Fellow book cult members disagreeing is all its really about books.
     
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  6. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    So the apostles didnt make a claim against nature? Nature being that no one can rise from death?

    No and no. I read the text for myself and think for myself.

    Tell me how i should read the text then?

    This is not about egos, its about understanding the topic snd issues around it.

    Answer my question which you still have not: why would the apostles die for there claims to the resurrection?

    All this hopping around the issues wastes time and i have limited time. I like comming on here, but i dont like wasted time.
     
  7. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    Listen i really actually dont care about the text. I am nature oriented and not bible oriented. So i could actually care less about the text actually. What i am saying is that the text is about nature. That is not going to be very well recieved in religion. Since it is not going to be well recieved, i actually may understand a few things! Or are you upholding the general churches view the text is NOT about nature?

    Btw christianity is vast not everyone agrees monolithically. So your arguement with the church on the resurrection is a portion of church but not all of it. John Muir is one of my favorites!!!! He doesnt even sound christian he is that good!
     
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  8. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    There is nothing to be sorry for. I appreciated your post very much.

    Very true. I will add a few details along this line.

    Based on Jesus' claims and the response to them Jesus was either God or a madman and C.S. Lewis points out which.

    “I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”
    Quote by C.S. Lewis: “I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the r...”


    Christianity exploded on the scene despite being persecuted by just about every empire and culture on Earth. It literally couldn't be contained no matter how much force was used against it. There is a letter from Pilot's complaining to Rome that if they did not change their tactics ( enforcing by threat of death Christian Jews to sign a paper admitting that Rome's proconsul was a deity) that they would soon run out of Jews because so many refused to sign.

    Compare that to Islam. Islam's first 12 years were fairly peaceful involving Muhammad simply preaching the Quran's message. He only managed to accumulate a hand full of followers (mostly friends and family) but when he was given an army and the power to raid caravans his number of followers exploded to somewhere around 100,000. When Muhammad was selling peace it seemed no one was buying but when he had power, money, and caravan booty to give away his ranks swelled.

    The beginnings of Christianity and Islam are exact reversals of each other.
     
  9. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    You dont care about the text but then say the text is about nature?

    You lost me.

    Im not here trying to make the text say whatever i want it too. Lets let the text speak for ITSELF. Isnt that a good idea?
     
  10. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    I don't concern myself within anyone's grammatical errors as long as I can figure out what their saying.

    I am making claims backed up by thousands of years of research. To dispute them your going to have to first pick one then second explain exactly what is wrong with it. until you do there is no debate.

    There is more textual evidence for Jesus Christ than for any prehistorically figure OF ANY KIND. All claims to external truths lack certainty. They are determined using probability. The probability (using all the factors of the historical method) for Jesus' historicity is a probable or even more so than for any figure of pre-history. We don't discuss prehistoric figures as certainties (heck historical figures shouldn't be) we discuss them as probabilities.

    Those best trained to know (NT historians regardless of their faith) claim that among many the following historical claims are reliable.

    1. Jesus appeared on the historical scene with an unprecedented sense of divine authority.
    2. That Jesus practiced a ministry of miracle working and exorcism.
    3. That Jesus died by crucifixion,
    4. That his tomb was found empty.
    5. That even his enemies claimed to have seen him post mortem.

    Among many more the consensus of NT historians believe those claims are reliable and just those 5 alone justify the bedrock of the Christian faith.

    If you want to read what one of (if not the) greatest expert on testimony and evidence said (he founded Harvard law for pity's sake) about the historicity of the Gospels read:
    Testimony of the Evangelists by Simon Greenleaf

    I already told you this claim was garbage. There is software available that will point out every difference between any two versions of the bible. Pick any book of the bible you want and run that comparison. I bet they come back with at least 95% agreement and most of the differences are probably irrelevant. Stop claiming this, it isn't true and you couldn't even prove it if it was nor would it mean that bible's in general are not reliable. It is just something you read somewhere and swallowed whole because it fit your bias. You need to read more scholarly material and more of it. I already gave you two of the greats and above is a link to another.

    That is because the NT was written in English but in Aramaic and Koine Greek. Jesus official name in Aramaic is Yeshua which translates to Jesus in other languages. He also went by many titles and labels depending on the situation. You seem like a nice person but your arguments appear to be sophmoric. Many of these things early Sunday school children could show are incorrect or inconsequential.

    Do you have any idea how many titles Jesus had and they are all valid and then you have to consider all the languages the bible has been translated into?
    50 Names and Titles of Jesus:
    1.
    Almighty One “…who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Rev. 1:8
    2. Alpha and Omega“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.” Rev. 22:13
    3. Advocate – “My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.” 1 John 2:1
    4. Author and Perfecter of Our Faith “Fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.” Heb. 12:2
    5. Authority “Jesus said, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.” Matt. 28:18
    6. Bread of Life “Then Jesus declared, ‘I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.’” John 6:35
    7. Beloved Son of God“And behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” Matt. 3:17
    8. Bridegroom “And Jesus said to them, “Can the wedding guests mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast.” Matt. 9:15
    9. Chief Cornerstone “The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief corner stone.” Ps. 118:22
    10. Deliverer – “And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.” 1 Thess.1:10
    11. Faithful and True“I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war.” Rev.19:11
    12. Good Shepherd - “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.” John 10:11
    13. Great High Priest“Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.” Heb. 4:14
    14. Head of the Church“And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church.” Eph. 1:22
    15. Holy Servant “…and grant that Your bond-servants may speak Your word with all confidence, while You extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus." Acts 4:29-30
    16. I Am“Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” John 8:58
    17. Immanuel “…She will give birth to a son and will call him Immanuel, which means 'God with us.’” Is. 7:14
    18. Indescribable Gift“Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift.” 2 Cor. 9:15
    19. Judge“…he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead.” Acts 10:42
    20. King of Kings“These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.” Rev. 17:14
    21. Lamb of God – “The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!” John 1:29
    22. Light of the World"I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." John 8:12
    23. Lion of the Tribe of Judah“Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.” Rev. 5:5
    24. Lord of All“For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” Phil. 2:9-11
    25. Mediator “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” 1 Tim. 2:5
    26. Messiah “We have found the Messiah" (that is, the Christ).” John 1:41
    27. Mighty One “Then you will know that I, the Lord, am your Savior, your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.” Is. 60:16
    28. One Who Sets Free“So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.” John 8:36
    29. Our Hope “…Christ Jesus our hope.” 1 Tim. 1:1
    30. Peace“For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,” Eph. 2:14
    31. Prophet – “And Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor, except in his hometown and among his relatives and in his own household.” Mark 6:4
    32. Redeemer“And as for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last He will take His stand on the earth.” Job 19:25
    33. Risen Lord “…that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.” 1 Cor. 15:3-4
    34. Rock“For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.” 1 Cor. 10:4
    35. Sacrifice for Our Sins “This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.” 1 John 4:10
    36. Savior “For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.” Luke 2:11
    37. Son of Man “For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost." Luke 19:10
    38. Son of the Most High“He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David.” Luke 1:32
    39. Supreme Creator Over All “By Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.…” 1 Cor. 1:16-17
    40. Resurrection and the Life “Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die.” John 11:25
    41. The Door“I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.” John 10:9
    42. The Way “Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6
    43. The Word “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John 1:1
    44. True Vine - "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.” John 15:1
    45. Truth “And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." John 8:32
    46. Victorious One“To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.” Rev. 3:21
    47. – 50. Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace“For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” Is. 9:6
    50 Names and Titles of Jesus: Who the Bible Says Christ Is

    I can even think of a few more that weren't even in the list.

    Assuming you meant Jesus instead of Iesus it could be either depending on context and language.

    Your making very simplistic arguments about one of the most complex subjects in human history. There is so much more to the story I don't think your really up on to well.
     
  11. Regiomontanus

    Regiomontanus non est ad astra mollis e terris via

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    Hello. I think that, to some degree, nature is part of it. What I mean is that God the Father for the Jews and Christians was of course the Creator. And people back then were in many ways much more in touch with the cycles of nature. They were connected to and attuned to nature more so than many are today, living in their electronic bubbles. Loving God through their appreciation of Creation was a large part of their worldview.
     
  12. viole

    viole Metaphysical Naturalist
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    Well, at least we can say that if we are ready to sacrifice our lives for X, that does not entail that X cannot be a delusion.

    And your apostles also witnessed incredible things at the cruciction of their Master. Earthquakes, moon eclipses, a multitute of dead people getting out of their tombs and wondering round town, etc.

    Yet, they were quite diffident after the first reports of the master being back. Which is odd.

    So, the most plausible theory is that whoever wrote those stories (yes, even your witnesses are just nice stories written in a book) did not pay so much attention to logical consistency. They might be appealing to smeone with a romantic nature, but they do not pass the first logical tests.

    Probably it was fiction intended to entertain the Romans, who can say. You know, something like “adventures from the colonies”. And someone took it too seriously, like jediism today.

    Ciao

    - viole
     
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  13. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    Because the people killing them didn't ask their permission. I don't get why this is so hard to understand. Remember, the bible shows Jesus and the apostles and Paul all running away from getting killed. They CLEARLY didn't want to die. The Romans did not care and killed anyway. Do you feel that anyone who is killed by the cops should have some sort of elevated status? If not, why not? It's the same thing.

    Genealogies kept by people who only occasionally cared? The bible mentions many times how often Hebrews and later Jews "forgot the Lord" or some nonsense, so why would we expect them to continue certain traits? There is no appreciable continuity of the people anyway. "Israel" was owned by other countries way more often that it was ever owned by "Israel". Hardly any Israeli city was founded by Hebrews or Jews. Most were founded by gentiles of one flavor or another.

    And I'm sure that carpenter father and tween mother of his just sat around keeping a long list of ancestors handy in case anyone asked. You know, 'cause they were obviously literate and had long scrolls of nonsense just lying around in a dangerous time of Roman occupation and persecution.

    For the same reason kings tried to argue they were descended from gods all over the globe: to BS their own importance.

    While the author John disgusts me, he alone adds that water came out of Jesus' side when stabbed with a spear. That tells this nurse that he had a fluid overload problem of some sort. Just as we put in chest tubes when lungs or the space around them fill with fluid, puncturing his side relieved the pressure, but he passed out. They assumed he was dead because no one checks for a pulse and put him in a convenient cool place to recover (unknowingly, of course). Three days later, he's breathing fine again and leaves and high tails it to some place where people don't want to kill him. The apostles, knowing even less medicine than the ancient Greeks and Romans, assumed this was a miracle and started spreading the word about what was essentially just a cool medical tidbit that happens all the time in modernity.

    Everyone who wakes up from being dead in the bible were conveniently not buried. You wouldn't have these stories if 6 feet of dirt had suffocated them first.

    Resurrect John the Baptist, and THEN I'll be impressed.

    Not as important as the Romans, though, who owned Judea at the time, when they weren't fighting with Syria, who owned it the other times.

    Why? You can accept something cool happened without worshiping the person it happened to.

    And you have Jesus' autopsy report?

    Who witnessed these torture and killing sessions?

    The Joker: [to Det. Stephens in the interrogation room] Do you want to know why I use a knife? Guns are too quick. You can't savor all the... little emotions. In... you see, in their last moments, people show you who they really are. So in a way, I know your friends better than you ever did. Would you like to know which of them were cowards?

    Then why do they, even JESUS himself, run away from angry people who want to kill them? Where is their steadfast loyalty to their belief during THOSE stories?

    You really can't. It's a boiled down story, but until you provide actual archaeological evidence of some sort, it's still just a story.

    See, some people think going to the moon was just a story. However, if you shine a laser at the moon, you'll get a laser bounced back from all the mirrors the astronauts left behind. THAT is "evidence". You have nothing of the sort with Jesus and I personally think Jesus existed in some form or fashion, most likely a person accused of religious terrorism/treason and executed and his followers went crazy and deified him, just like people do to lots of other people who die when we didn't want it. Look how revered the Founding Fathers are, to the extent we even capitalize the phrase, and we KNOW they were just humans, horrible, horrible human beings. Give it a few more centuries (assuming our country still exists by that point), and they'll be gods. They even have their own monuments and statues commemorating them, saving us a lot of time. It is in our nature to idolize all kinds of things, real and fictional.

    No, they weren't, because they all RAN OFF when Jesus was arrested. Nobody except "maybe" John was there to see him killed in the first place. From the wiki on the crucifixion of Jesus:
    They don't get to boast of being witnesses if they all RAN OFF.

    Ever been to fanfiction.net? There are people who write stories about properties they don't own. So, per your logic, the Muppets must be real because we can see and touch them, there are multiple contemporary stories about them, and other, "independent" people wrote about them, including myself.

    Yes, it's hard for people to whine about medical issues when speaking to honest-to-God healthcare professionals, who actually know a thing or two. Watch Paulogia's Ham and AiG videos and you start to realize that their resident geneticist or whatever she claims to be knows she's not telling the truth, but a paycheck's a paycheck. Occasionally, she slips up and says something factual in her criticism of critics.

    First you have to establish death. Give us the autopsy report which proves he was verifiably clinically dead. Was there a pulse? Did his breathing stop (really stop, as opposed to just difficult to feel)? Was there mottling? Expulsion of urine and feces? Death rattle?

    People crucify themselves every Easter. They live through it, don't they?

    https://www.buzzfeednews.com/articl...he-philippines-literally-crucify-themselves-f

    And they are so epic they witnessed all these things while NOT being present at the time.
     
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  14. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    Name any and all scholars who are not Christians who teach that jesus rose from the dead? I have already said he may have lived and I realize a few who say there was a guy named Jesus but name any non Christian scholar historian who says they believe Jesus rose from the dead and give the evidence outside the tomb was found empty.

    I have found many historians who say he did not even exist.
     
  15. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Any scholar who does not believe in the resurrection, is not a Christian, and therefore they are either Agnostics, atheists, Buddhists, or some other group who do not believe in God, so I believe that anyone would be hard pressed in trying to find one of those scholars who do not believe in God, to state that they believe that Jesus was raised from death by God.
     
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  16. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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  17. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    You said there were non Christian scholars, being a Christian scholar makes them a believer who is a scholar its not proof.. Name any historian with proof and archaelogical proof, grave stone of Jesus family, written historical accounts.

    There are none except Josephus and his word was proven to be a hoax. Caiaphus, his daughters grave was found and it identified and him and the mother. He lived back them what about the tombstone or grave of his Mother Mary or his Father Joseph with his identity on it?

    If there were other people who wrote about Jesus m but the Quran has been mentioned and the Quran identifies Jesus as a Prophet not the risen savior.
     
  18. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    Here is the evidence from Tacitus that Christians use and there are 4 other authors who wrote something similar and Christians use it as proof Jesus existed and that he was the risen savior. Here are the words from Tacitus and the fact that Christians use this is sad proof that they have no evidence.

    ero fastened the guilt ... on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of ... Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome....[5]

    The name Christians come from Christus that does not mean they actually believed in the man Jesus. Christians called themselves Christians if they labeled themselves Christians they got that from the Christian name not from Jesus.

    They are just saying the Christians got their name from Christus a savior a messiah, their were lots of groups who had messiahs it does not mean anything. A whole bunch of Messiahs were punished and crucified by Pontius Pilate, it could've been any of the Messiah groups.

    I am not saying there wasn't a Messiah who got crucified there were a bunch of them, this was the Christian group from the messiah who got crucified.
     
  19. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    More so than we understand today. Thats a huge problem today for us not just in religion either.

    Infact i would say jesus himself is difficult to understand in his own day let alo e 2,000 years of intellectualized development thats gone on. Hildegard debingen a 13th century nun and "mystic" polymath said "we cannot live in an interpreted world for an interpreted world is not home". That is a rather subtle and sharp rebuke of the nicene creeds intro "we believe". Which btw is put together by all the smart folks of the day.

    Nature is not defined or determined by science. Sxience and religion are being determined by nature. Thats actually good science and good religion. The text axtually is literally about nature as being way deeper than understood. The reason the resurrecrion is difficult its seen as a magic trick its not mag
    Amen. Yet this opening thread and others like it are based the ken hams of the world as biblical experts at the same time they know he is an idiot factually!!!!

    Its a total straw man. Here lets pick the biggest idiot we know, RELY ON HIS EXPERT view of the bible to then turn around so we can claim its stupid. And yet We already know factually the ken hams of the world are idiots. Yes religion has idiots in it i dont think religion is exempt from that though many believe it is!.


    Below id MY whine not at you pheonix just in general. Its like trying to explain sound to deaf people.


    YES EVERYONE MANY DO THINK the bible IS A HISTORICAL NEWS NARRATIVE. YES ITS STUPID TO READ IT AS SUCH. THE REALITY OF THE TEXT IS , ITS ESOTERIC. WRITTEN BY PEOPLE YOU DONT UNDERSTAND. BUT THEY UNDERSTAND YOU "MODERNITY. YOU ARE EASY TO UNDERSTAND FOR THEM. THEY ARE NOT EASY TO UNDERSTAND FOR YOU....


    I say burn the text, step out into nature, and maybe folks will be unlucky to have the text emerge straight from the landscape at their feet. If that happens then We can dialog not some wierd i believe i dont believe dialec . Normal folks are wierd and crazy.
     
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  20. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

    Joined:
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    Unitarian Universalism,Pagan,Zen

    Well personally no I do not believe there is any historic evdence for Jesus or the savior who risen from the dead although I do think a guy named Jesus lived.

    But why does there have to be absolute physical proof for Christians to feel the need to be physically literally true historically? To me faith is enough. I've seen good things done at AA, folks who got sober fro alcoholism and drug addiction through Christian oriented AA programs through help with the church to me it should be proof enough.

    Historical proof has nothing to with the here and now, I am focused on being here now living in the moment I don't really care about history as far as religion goes.
     
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