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Jesus is a Muslim

When someone makes a statement that this is how things are which is completely fabricated, and then follows it up by saying "It's a belief. It could be true," that does not hold water at all. There is a scale of probabilities of beliefs, anywhere from highly likely to be true, all the way down to pure fantasy with no grounding in reality.

Except it does. What you are saying holds where there is definitive proof. But I see no definitive proof. It could be that the people I regard as Prophets of Islam (pbut) did bring either the exact same form of Islam that Muhammad (pbuh) did (which I personally don't believe) or some form of Islam appropriate to the needs of their time and society (which I personally believe). Or they didn't, in which case Islam's basic claims in this space don't hold up. In such areas, what one person believes to be plausible, another will believe to be fantasy or just not right, and vice versa.

When I hear people these days citing, "Well, it's how I believe," when making statements that can be factually disproven, that is an intellectual dishonestly.

Except these statements cannot be factually disproven - that runs contrary to your notion of a spectrum of possibilities - unless you mean factually disproven beyond a shadow of reasonable doubt, perhaps? But I would dispute even this.

CORRECTION. Re-reading your post, I see that your scale of possibilities does effectively include factually disproven. My bad.
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I pretty much agree with everything you say here, although I do think it is possible to genuinely care for the other in this way, the danger notwithstanding.
That can be true in some cases, even if the belief they need to be saved because they simply believe and practice religion differently that them is misguided, and unfortunate.

A nice idea in principle, but I'm afraid there are certain things that I believe to be right and other things (that others believe) to be wrong.
That's true of me as well. Notwithstanding, I don't presume that just because I believe something is true, that it is necessarily so. A contradictory believe can also be true, from the perspective of another from within a different context. It's like saying God is personal, and another saying God is impersonal. In my mind, both are true statements, even though I might believe God is personal.

It's a nice story, which I used to hold to, though not any more. I do agree that Truth (if such a thing exists) is something that we can at best only partially grasp, but that's not the same thing as saying that all of us necessarily have a partially correct perspective on the Truth.
A couple of things to clarify in order to continue this point further.

When I say Truth, with a capital T, I do not view or hold that as a propositional truth that one can grasp with the mind. It is by definition, incomprehensible, meaning the mind cannot hold it. That Truth cannot be defined in a statement. Rather it is the Fabric of Reality that all truths, relative perceptual interpretations of reality, act as reflections of something greater than a singular statement.

So you have absolute Truth, and relative truth. That Truth is in all relative truths, which are partial view, slices, or fragments. There is a great quote attributed to Rumi I feel captures this,

"Truth was a mirror in the hands of God. It fell, and broke into pieces. Everybody took a piece of it. And they looked at it and thought they had the truth."

When you understand the nature of how we perceive what is true, it makes our assumptions about that truth to be far less certain than we assume. It's like someone who reads words on the pages of the Bible and announces, "It says this! This is the Truth!", failing to recognize that they are interpreting all of it through the filters of their minds, influenced by language, culture, beliefs, maturity, and so forth.

In other words, we are all seeing Truth, but we just all understand it differently, hence why it is "partial".
 
Notwithstanding, I don't presume that just because I believe something is true, that it is necessarily so.

I don't think I do either.

A contradictory believe can also be true, from the perspective of another from within a different context.

This is where we part ways.

So you have absolute Truth, and relative truth. That Truth is in all relative truths, which are partial view, slices, or fragments. There is a great quote attributed to Rumi I feel captures this,

"Truth was a mirror in the hands of God. It fell, and broke into pieces. Everybody took a piece of it. And they looked at it and thought they had the truth."

When you understand the nature of how we perceive what is true, it makes our assumptions about that truth to be far less certain than we assume. It's like someone who reads words on the pages of the Bible and announces, "It says this! This is the Truth!", failing to recognize that they are interpreting all of it through the filters of their minds, influenced by language, culture, beliefs, maturity, and so forth.

In other words, we are all seeing Truth, but we just all understand it differently, hence why it is "partial".

I think one can understand that we perceive (the) Truth through filters, or at least be open to this possibility, but still hold to one's beliefs, believing them to be a true representation of either the Truth or part of the Truth (and other representations not to be true, or only partially true).
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think one can understand that we perceive (the) Truth through filters, or at least be open to this possibility, but still hold to one's beliefs, believing them to be a true representation of either the Truth or part of the Truth (and other representations not to be true, or only partially true).
It think it functions this way for us because of how we've been conditioned to think growing up trying to discern this from that, and so forth. But there reaches a point where we understand that even though it functions as truth for us, and we treat it as such, we do know in our minds that this is still a relative truth.

In other words, were I born in your culture (whatever that is), and saw the world through the lenses of those filters, along with who I am as a person on an individual basis with my personality quirks and all that, I would probably not be the same person I am right now typing to you. My understanding of truth would be different. And yours would be different too if you had grown up as "me" in my world, and family, and culture, and life experiences, etc.

In other words, though it functions as truth for us, we should be wise, and humble enough to admit that what is true for us, may be very different to another set of eyes, yet be equally as true, and meaningful, for them. Truth has many faces. One of them is yours. One of them is mine.
 
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FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
"Muslim" is an Arabic word meaning "one who submits (to God)"

Luke 6:40 (21st Century King James Version)
40 The disciple is not above his master, but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

Luke 6:40 (American Standard Version)
40 The disciple is not above his teacher: but every one when he is perfected shall be as his teacher.

Let us look at what Jesus said in Luke 6:40 in the language of Aramaic translated into Hebrew:
"Ein talmeed na'leh 'al rabbo; shekken kal adam she'MUSHLAM yihyeh k'rabbo." - Luke 6:40, Source: Aramaic Bible Society

Translation in English: "No student can be above his teacher, but everyone that is a MUSLIM, can be as his teacher."

The Hebrew word "Mushlam" comes from the root "Sh L M". "Shalom" which comes from the same root means "peace". The Arabic word "Muslim" comes from the root "S L M". "Salam" means "peace".

Conclusion: The word that Jesus used in Luke 6:40 Mushlam in Hebrew is what Muslim in Arabic means - one who submits to God.

Was he a shia?
 
It think it functions this way for us because of how we've been conditioned to think growing up trying to discern this from that, and so forth. But there reaches a point where we understand that even though it functions as truth for us, and we treat it as such, we do know in our minds that this is still a relative truth.

In other words, were I born in your culture (whatever that is), and saw the world through the lenses of those filters, along with who I am as a person on an individual basis with my personality quirks and all that, I would probably not be the same person I am right now typing to you. My understanding of truth would be different. And yours would be different too if you had grown up as "me" in my world, and family, and culture, and life experiences, etc.

In other words, though it functions as truth for us, we should be wise, and humble enough to admit that what is true for us, may be very different to another set of eyes, yet be equally as true, and meaningful, for them. Truth has many faces. One of them is yours. One of them is mine.

I get what you're saying, I do. But I think the 'Truth has many faces' trope is not the only/necessarily best way of seeing the world knowing this. I think a perfectly good, suitably humble alternative is to say 'I believe this and that and I believe that I have a better representation of Truth than you, but I also acknowledge that I could be wrong in this, or only partially right.' Now, your riposte to this may be 'Well, that's because you don't, yet, really get what I'm saying' or 'You have yet to develop sufficient wisdom/humility' (although I'm sure you'd never say the latter, at least directly!). Maybe. I accept that.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I get what you're saying, I do. But I think the 'Truth has many faces' trope is not the only/necessarily best way of seeing the world knowing this. I think a perfectly good, suitably humble alternative is to say 'I believe this and that and I believe that I have a better representation of Truth than you, but I also acknowledge that I could be wrong in this, or only partially right.'
Of course we think our way of seeing things is "better" or else we wouldn't hold them as true. But "better" is again, relative. It's relative to the context we find ourselves in on many levels. Something which today serves us better than what we believed previously when we were younger for instance, actually would not have been better back then. We didn't have the necessary prerequisite contexts in order for that 'higher truth' to make sense, and hence be useful to us. So better is not only cultural, it's developmental as well.

That said however, higher truths are always higher truths, regardless of whether the person can fathom them or not. It's like saying being 30 is older than 15. It always follows suit after 15, and cannot be accessed by skipping over 15. 15 is transcended, and included in being 30.

The same thing with higher perceptions of truth. They are built upon the lower perceptions, like climbing stairs you are transcending them and including them in higher realizations and higher levels of awareness. Generally speaking, these higher levels are always experienced as better by virtue of the the level of inclusiveness they hold and what they afford the individual, or the group. But again, the value of them can only be realized once one is at that stage developmentally.

So, the more accurate way to express this would be to say, "I can see how you can see that, given for where you are at. I however don't see those things in those terms for where I am at." That is easier to say of course for someone who had previously thought in those terms but have taken the climb up to the next stair or three or five.

However, the person on the stairs before those higher stairs would not be able to say that, because they don't have the necessary context yet to see what that other person is seeing, to perceive as that other person on the higher step perceives from that altitude. Since they have no experience seeing and thinking like that, they cannot relate to it in themselves, and assume that person in what they report is just crazy or something, somehow not yet as "smart" as them, lost, blind, confused, and so forth. This is pretty typical.

So context is everything. Content (truth) is relative to context (the depth, width, and height of the container for truth). They are nested bowls of Truth, containing the various objects of truth that can be held at that given level, or container, or context.

This by the way, is a nested hierarchy of containers within containers within containers. The larger containers hold the smaller containers within themselves, and each larger container or context is able to hold more and more objects of truth, all the previous truth, and new truths the smaller bowls cannot contain.

With this much more content available in the larger vessels, what truths were understood from exclusively within the smaller containers becomes understood in a vastly larger and more inclusive context. So all told, all truths are not equal. ;) But one must be careful not to assume that how they are currently seeing a truth, will not at some point be seen to be less adequate, and a better, higher, more inclusive truth be realized.

I think everyone at every level should practice that humility. Hence why I say, to try to prove another religion as "wrong" lacks such humility.

Now, your riposte to this may be 'Well, that's because you don't, yet, really get what I'm saying' or 'You have yet to develop sufficient wisdom/humility' (although I'm sure you'd never say the latter, at least directly!). Maybe. I accept that.
That can be true in the context I was speaking above, but that's not true necessarily in all cases. You can obviously have people all on the same level, the same staircase altitude, all arguing with each other what they are seeing at that altitude together. That has less to do with higher states of awareness, then it has to do with interpretations of things at that given level. That's all part of the process.

But to the point about arguing other religions are "wrong", that's like saying floral patterns on furniture are wrong. It indicates the person who assumes other practices and beliefs of religion at that particular given level that don't look like themselves must be doing it wrong, not recognizing basic differences that are allowed to exist. You can have a leather chair, a wooden chair, a cloth chair, etc. Not recognizing that they are all used to sit upon.
 
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Of course we think our way of seeing things is "better" or else we wouldn't hold them as true. But "better" is again, relative. It's relative to the context we find ourselves in on many levels. Something which today serves us better than what we believed previously when we were younger for instance, actually would not have been better back then. We didn't have the necessary prerequisite contexts in order for that 'higher truth' to make sense, and hence be useful to us. So better is not only cultural, it's developmental as well.

That said however, higher truths are always higher truths, regardless of whether the person can fathom them or not. It's like saying being 30 is older than 15. It always follows suit after 15, and cannot be accessed by skipping over 15. 15 is transcended, and included in being 30.

The same thing with higher perceptions of truth. They are built upon the lower perceptions, like climbing stairs you are transcending them and including them in higher realizations and higher levels of awareness. Generally speaking, these higher levels are always experienced as better by virtue of the the level of inclusiveness they hold and what they afford the individual, or the group. But again, the value of them can only be realized once one is at that stage developmentally.

So, the more accurate way to express this would be to say, "I can see how you can see that, given for where you are at. I however don't see those things in those terms for where I am at." That is easier to say of course for someone who had previously thought in those terms but have taken the climb up to the next stair or three or five.

However, the person on the stairs before those higher stairs would not be able to say that, because they don't have the necessary context yet to see what that other person is seeing, to perceive as that other person on the higher step perceives from that altitude. Since they have no experience seeing and thinking like that, they cannot relate to it in themselves, and assume that person in what they report is just crazy or something, somehow not yet as "smart" as them, lost, blind, confused, and so forth. This is pretty typical.

So context is everything. Content (truth) is relative to context (the depth, width, and height of the container for truth). They are nested bowls of Truth, containing the various objects of truth that can be held at that given level, or container, or context.

This by the way, is a nested hierarchy of containers within containers within containers. The larger containers hold the smaller containers within themselves, and each larger container or context is able to hold more and more objects of truth, all the previous truth, and new truths the smaller bowls cannot contain.

With this much more content available in the larger vessels, what truths were understood from exclusively within the smaller containers becomes understood in a vastly larger and more inclusive context. So all told, all truths are not equal. ;) But one must be careful not to assume that how they are currently seeing a truth, will not at some point be seen to be less adequate, and a better, higher, more inclusive truth be realized.

I think everyone at every level should practice that humility. Hence why I say, to try to prove another religion as "wrong" lacks such humility.


That can be true in the context I was speaking above, but that's not true necessarily in all cases. You can obviously have people all on the same level, the same staircase altitude, all arguing with each other what they are seeing at that altitude together. That has less to do with higher states of awareness, then it has to do with interpretations of things at that given level. That's all part of the process.

But to the point about arguing other religions are "wrong", that's like saying floral patterns on furniture are wrong. It indicates the person who assumes other practices and beliefs of religion at that particular given level that don't look like themselves must be doing it wrong, not recognizing basic differences that are allowed to exist. You can have a leather chair, a wooden chair, a cloth chair, etc. Not recognizing that they are all used to sit upon.

Many thanks for taking the time to expand upon your position.

I agree with you on the broad point of a hierarchy of levels of understanding where lower levels are not wrong as such. However, I still maintain that this ladder does not cover all ways of seeing the world, but rather a subset of those ways. To my mind, there are still some beliefs that fall outside that are just wrong.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I agree with you on the broad point of a hierarchy of levels of understanding where lower levels are not wrong as such. However, I still maintain that this ladder does not cover all ways of seeing the world, but rather a subset of those ways.
I'm not sure I follow you here. To add a little more clarification may help communication here. This ladder analogy is talking about developmental models, particularly in this case structures of consciousness. There are various different models with anywhere from five to 12 potential stages. Everyone, everywhere, at all times, fits somewhere within these. Where they are observed, it always follows the same patterns, at various rates of development. Some only every reach say a stage three, some reach to stage seven, and so forth.

Think of it like the stages of development of the human body. It will generally always follow the the same general rates and stages. Not precisely exact, like marching in lockstep as a bunch of clones, but close enough to identify a predictable pattern and a model created to look at and work with that stage.

So in this way, yes it does cover all ways of seeing the world, generally speaking. For instance, one village believes God sends rain when his people are good, and bad destructive storms when they've been bad.Another village understands God sends rain when they've properly sacrificed lambs to him, and bad storms when they've failed to provide a proper sacrifice. These are two different ways of looking at why natural phenomena occur, but they are both mythic thought in general operating with different content. So the stage is mythic cognitions. Two villages, both at the mythic stage of development, creating different content at that stage.

A different stage in this case would be another village who uses rationality to analyze the data and realize that weather patterns follow general trends with no connection to human behavior. This is not another mythic expression of thought, but an expression of thought at a higher order or level of sophistication. It's a different mode of thought.

And so it goes into different modes beyond that stage, and beyond that next stage, and so forth. So given that, how can anything really fall outside of these? If there is something that doesn't fit the models, then the models change to include the anomalous data.

To my mind, there are still some beliefs that fall outside that are just wrong.
Of course, I accept this. "The world was created 6000 years ago is a fact", is wrong, as a historical statement. To the rational analytical mind, that is error. To the mythical mind however, since rationality and science are not part of that world of thought (except as a misunderstood artifact from modernity), a statement like that is "true" in a mythological world where the light of science does not exist. So what is "true" at one level, is false at another. The truth of evolution, is false or wrong to the mythic mind because it does not fit with their narratives of reality, as another example.

And following this up that ladder, you will find what I said from the beginning, that truths at a given level have to have veracity within that level, some statements being wrong or in error. But to the next level, that "true" view of the previously level is "insufficient" or 'wrong" when viewed at the higher stage. The "truth" of the previous stage can become "true" when held in a different light from above, so to speak.

So then, all the way at the very top of this growth pyramid, standing above or outside of cognitive thought and mind itself, a God's-eye view, all "truths" at all the stages or modes of thought itself, are seen as "true but partial". All truths are relative to those contexts, those containers, which do become truth vs false using whatever tools of the stage determine such things.

They are all based on dualistic thought however, thesis and antithesis. Outside this however, Truth does not exist as a propositional reality that the dualistic mind can hold. Once you are outside dualism into nonduality, all of these truths of the various levels are relative to them and thus are partial. In nonduality, paradox rules, and light and dark are not opposites, true does not have a false as its opposite. That Truth is simply just "what IS." What the mind does with it after the fact makes it partial.

Our point though in all of this was back to Islam saying that other religions are "wrong". From a mythological view of God, that God is an entity who lives up in the sky somewhere, in debating theologies, it's all metaphysical speculation to begin with. The measure of what is "true" vs "false" is really based on mutual agreement within certain systems of thought. From a higher perspective, looking back at this, it is arguing essentially which apple is a true apple, when comparing a red one to a green one. To me, they are both the same thing.
 
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I'm not sure I follow you here. To add a little more clarification may help communication here. This ladder analogy is talking about developmental models, particularly in this case structures of consciousness. There are various different models with anywhere from five to 12 potential stages. Everyone, everywhere, at all times, fits somewhere within these. Where they are observed, it always follows the same patterns, at various rates of development. Some only every reach say a stage three, some reach to stage seven, and so forth.

Think of it like the stages of development of the human body. It will generally always follow the the same general rates and stages. Not precisely exact, like marching in lockstep as a bunch of clones, but close enough to identify a predictable pattern and a model created to look at and work with that stage.

So in this way, yes it does cover all ways of seeing the world, generally speaking. For instance, one village believes God sends rain when his people are good, and bad destructive storms when they've been bad.Another village understands God sends rain when they've properly sacrificed lambs to him, and bad storms when they've failed to provide a proper sacrifice. These are two different ways of looking at why natural phenomena occur, but they are both mythic thought in general operating with different content. So the stage is mythic cognitions. Two villages, both at the mythic stage of development, creating different content at that stage.

A different stage in this case would be another village who uses rationality to analyze the data and realize that weather patterns follow general trends with no connection to human behavior. This is not another mythic expression of thought, but an expression of thought at a higher order or level of sophistication. It's a different mode of thought.

And so it goes into different modes beyond that stage, and beyond that next stage, and so forth. So given that, how can anything really fall outside of these? If there is something that doesn't fit the models, then the models change to include the anomalous data.


Of course, I accept this. "The world was created 6000 years ago is a fact", is wrong, as a historical statement. To the rational analytical mind, that is error. To the mythical mind however, since rationality and science are not part of that world of thought (except as a misunderstood artifact from modernity), a statement like that is "true" in a mythological world where the light of science does not exist. So what is "true" at one level, is false at another. The truth of evolution, is false or wrong to the mythic mind because it does not fit with their narratives of reality, as another example.

And following this up that ladder, you will find what I said from the beginning, that truths at a given level have to have veracity within that level, some statements being wrong or in error. But to the next level, that "true" view of the previously level is "insufficient" or 'wrong" when viewed at the higher stage. The "truth" of the previous stage can become "true" when held in a different light from above, so to speak.

So then, all the way at the very top of this growth pyramid, standing above or outside of cognitive thought and mind itself, a God's-eye view, all "truths" at all the stages or modes of thought itself, are seen as "true but partial". All truths are relative to those contexts, those containers, which do become truth vs false using whatever tools of the stage determine such things.

They are all based on dualistic thought however, thesis and antithesis. Outside this however, Truth does not exist as a propositional reality that the dualistic mind can hold. Once you are outside dualism into nonduality, all of these truths of the various levels are relative to them and thus are partial. In nonduality, paradox rules, and light and dark are not opposites, true does not have a false as its opposite. That Truth is simply just "what IS." What the mind does with it after the fact makes it partial.

Our point though in all of this was back to Islam saying that other religions are "wrong". From a mythological view of God, that God is an entity who lives up in the sky somewhere, in debating theologies, it's all metaphysical speculation to begin with. The measure of what is "true" vs "false" is really based on mutual agreement within certain systems of thought. From a higher perspective, looking back at this, it is arguing essentially which apple is a true apple, when comparing a red one to a green one. To me, they are both the same thing.

I see what you describe above as a model, and an interesting one at that, which attempts to explain the different stages of development of belief systems/ways of seeing the world, not least on a historical scale, and of individuals who subscribe to those beliefs/worldviews, a developmental model. And I can see how, if this is to be of any use as an explanatory model, it needs to capture all worldviews.

But when I say that I accept the broad notion of a ladder of spiritual development, it is within the context of a particular belief system within which certain things are accepted as true representations of the Truth at a particular level of development and other things are not (i.e. are always wrong). That is rather different from the explanatory model you describe above. On my model, one can say that certain things are just wrong, false beliefs, always, no matter where you are on your ladder of development. So if we take the view that the world was created in 6000 years, for me that is a wrong belief. Insofar as I believe that the world was not created in 6000 years, I believe it is not true, not just at my level of spiritual development but always. Whatever level of development you are at, it is never true for you to say that the world was created in 6000 years. So I believe. But I am always respectful of views which differ from my own (or I try to be, at any rate!) and remain open to the possibility that my belief that the world was not created in 6000 years is a wrong belief (that is never true), plain and simple (despite what I take to be evidence to the contrary).
 

DennisTate

Active Member
"Muslim" is an Arabic word meaning "one who submits (to God)"

Luke 6:40 (21st Century King James Version)
40 The disciple is not above his master, but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

Luke 6:40 (American Standard Version)
40 The disciple is not above his teacher: but every one when he is perfected shall be as his teacher.

Let us look at what Jesus said in Luke 6:40 in the language of Aramaic translated into Hebrew:
"Ein talmeed na'leh 'al rabbo; shekken kal adam she'MUSHLAM yihyeh k'rabbo." - Luke 6:40, Source: Aramaic Bible Society

Translation in English: "No student can be above his teacher, but everyone that is a MUSLIM, can be as his teacher."

The Hebrew word "Mushlam" comes from the root "Sh L M". "Shalom" which comes from the same root means "peace". The Arabic word "Muslim" comes from the root "S L M". "Salam" means "peace".

Conclusion: The word that Jesus used in Luke 6:40 Mushlam in Hebrew is what Muslim in Arabic means - one who submits to God.


I believe that Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus - Issa had a near death type experience during his forty days of fasting............
and near death experience accounts are transforming all religions bringing us to the place where genuine peace on earth will be possible.

Mellen-Thomas Benedict's Near-Death Experience

I saw the Christian heaven. We expect it to be a beautiful place, and you stand in front of the throne, worshipping forever. I tried it. It is boring! This is all we are going to do? It is childlike. I do not mean to offend anyone. Some heavens are very interesting, and some are very boring. I found the ancient ones to be more interesting, like the Native American ones, the Happy Hunting Grounds. The Egyptians have fantastic ones. It goes on and on. There are so many of them. In each of them there is a fractal that is your particular interpretation, unless you are part of the group soul that believes in only the God of a particular religion. Then you are very close, in the same ball park together. But even then, each is a little bit different. That is a part of yourself that you leave there. Death is about life, not about heaven.

I asked God, "What is the best religion on the planet? Which one is right?"

And Godhead said, with great love:
"I don't care."
That was incredible grace. What that meant was that we are the caring beings here.

The Ultimate Godhead of all the stars tells us:
"It does not matter what religion you are."
They come and they go, they change. Buddhism has not been here forever, Catholicism has not been here forever, and they are all about to become more enlightened. More light is coming into all systems now. There is going to be a reformation in spirituality that is going to be just as dramatic as the Protestant Reformation. There will be lots of people fighting about it, one religion against the next, believing that only they are right.

Everyone thinks they own God, the religions and philosophies, especially the religions, because they form big organizations around their philosophy. When Godhead said, "I don't care," I immediately understood that it is for us to care about. It is important, because we are the caring beings. It matters to us and that is where it is important. What you have is the energy equation in spirituality. Ultimate Godhead does not care if you are Protestant, Buddhist, or whatever. It is all a blooming facet of the whole. I wish that all religions would realize it and let each other be. It is not the end of each religion, but we are talking about the same God. Live and let live. Each has a different view. And it all adds up to the Big Picture; it is all important.

It is my belief that when Muslims, Christians and Jews come to the place where we genuinely respect each other in spite of our different cultures and beliefs........
Atheism and extreme skepticism will nearly cease from the earth.


John 13:35

By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

While the Abrahamic religions fight and argue..... skepticism continues.


Should these Sura's be foundation for all Koran?
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
"Muslim" is an Arabic word meaning "one who submits (to God)"

Luke 6:40 (21st Century King James Version)
40 The disciple is not above his master, but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

Luke 6:40 (American Standard Version)
40 The disciple is not above his teacher: but every one when he is perfected shall be as his teacher.

Let us look at what Jesus said in Luke 6:40 in the language of Aramaic translated into Hebrew:
"Ein talmeed na'leh 'al rabbo; shekken kal adam she'MUSHLAM yihyeh k'rabbo." - Luke 6:40, Source: Aramaic Bible Society

Translation in English: "No student can be above his teacher, but everyone that is a MUSLIM, can be as his teacher."

The Hebrew word "Mushlam" comes from the root "Sh L M". "Shalom" which comes from the same root means "peace". The Arabic word "Muslim" comes from the root "S L M". "Salam" means "peace".

Conclusion: The word that Jesus used in Luke 6:40 Mushlam in Hebrew is what Muslim in Arabic means - one who submits to God.

I believe something is lost in the translation. God in Jesus is not a disciple of Himself. He is already totally in harmony (at peace) with Himself.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Please look at the context in which the verse sits. It is part of a dialogue against judging other people. It is saying be merciful, and if someone does you wrong then be their teacher showing them how to behave.

I believe that falls in to the log in the eye context. Only the one who is perfect has the right to judge.
 

ManofIslam

Member
Yes! Jesus is definitely a Muslim! And he will return: as a Muslim! Why? Because he submitted to Allah (SWT) (God) just as all Muslims do!
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Why must Muslims try so hard to make other religions validate their own, especially using bad scholarship and reasoning?
They get it from Christianity, which demands Judaism validates them.

Jesus is a dead Jewish carpenter.
When did he ever "carpent"? :)

Now if what you say to be right, Why was Jesus only sent to Israel and not to the muslims. Go Figure.
Are you from Israel?

Did you also know Jesus talk about how false Christ's and false prophets would come and that how a false prophet would be in the desert.
Jesus lived in a desert too.

all teachings of Jesus like forbidding adultery, women has to cover their heads and to wear decently
He never brought it up.

Why not Muhammad God not have Muhammad to write, like all other Prophets.
Didn't Jeremiah use a scribe?

Muhammad could not read, but had silly woman read for him
Seriously? Are you threatened by successful businesswomen?

Silly woman should be Prophet. Silly woman more smarter than muhammad
Silly woman should be prophet. Not Muhammad not write or read.
Jesus, this is offensive. Anyone with a vagina should be upset.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
They get it from Christianity, which demands Judaism validates them.


When did he ever "carpent"? :)


Are you from Israel?
Well for one thing, There are only two tribes left in Israel, The other 10 tribes are scattered throughout the world.
The only tribes left in Israel is the tribe of Benjamin and Juda. All the other 10 tribes are scattered throughout the world.


Jesus lived in a desert too.

Jesus never lived in the desert, Jesus was born at Bethlehem, which is just outside of Jerusalem, and Jesus lived at Nazareth of Galilee of Judaea, which is just outside of Jerusalem and was baptized in the river Jordan by Galilee of Judaea.
Have you ever heard of a river out in the desert ?
Jesus was raised as a carpenter son, Now how many trees do you suppose you would find out in a desert ?
And Mary's cousin Elisabeth was with child also, So it would be quiet a walk for a woman who is pregnant with child to walk from the desert, to see her cousin.
Do you have any idea, how far away the closes desert is from Galilee of Judaea to where Mary's cousin Elisabeth also lived in the city of Judaea, As did Mary also lived in the hill country of Judaea, Luke 1:39-40.

So how do you get Jesus as lived in the desert.
Before you go Quoting things, at lease search them out, otherwise your just sticking your foot in your mouth.


He never brought it up.

As to why should Jesus bring it up, Seeing Jesus lived at Judaea of Nazareth, just outside of Jerusalem. Your not making no Common Sense.
That so far everything that you have said, has been and can be proven Wrong.
Are you always in the habit of sticking your foot in your mouth.


Didn't Jeremiah use a scribe?

No Jeremiah didn't use a scribe,
Prophets did their writings of the scriptures.


Seriously? Are you threatened by successful businesswomen?


Jesus, this is offensive. Anyone with a vagina should be upset.
 
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