Jedster
Well-Known Member
It was a Jewish joke..no offense meant.
BTW he was a Jew and this "Jesus is Muslim" thing happens regularly
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Jesus is a Muslim
- Thread starter arbe waeishrun
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It was a Jewish joke..no offense meant.
BTW he was a Jew and this "Jesus is Muslim" thing happens regularly
Ponder This
Well-Known Member
People always seem to have great difficulties understanding the essential meaning or spirit: the essence of the thing.
"Muslim" means "a follower of the religion of Islam". So, of course, if you say that Jesus is "Muslim" everyone will jeer at you since they perceive the religion of Islam as not existing until Muhammad came along. In other words, they are firm believers in Muhammadism: that Islam is not the religion of God, but that it is the religion of and invention of a man called "Muhammad".
But "Muslim" comes from the active particle of "aslama" and means "one who surrenders [to God]". So if you read the New Testament, it's fairly clear that Jesus surrenders to the will of God in allowing himself to be crucified (at least, if you are a Christian, then that's essentially what you believe). You may have things to say about why Jesus did what he did, but if you believe the New Testament, then you pretty much believe that he allowed himself to be crucified. It just means that in a very clear sense, Jesus was "Muslim". This sort of thinking arises from the idea that Muhammad didn't invent the notion of God or the ways in which people relate to God.
So... is religion defined by the outward appearance of a thing or essential spirit of a thing?
"Muslim" means "a follower of the religion of Islam". So, of course, if you say that Jesus is "Muslim" everyone will jeer at you since they perceive the religion of Islam as not existing until Muhammad came along. In other words, they are firm believers in Muhammadism: that Islam is not the religion of God, but that it is the religion of and invention of a man called "Muhammad".
But "Muslim" comes from the active particle of "aslama" and means "one who surrenders [to God]". So if you read the New Testament, it's fairly clear that Jesus surrenders to the will of God in allowing himself to be crucified (at least, if you are a Christian, then that's essentially what you believe). You may have things to say about why Jesus did what he did, but if you believe the New Testament, then you pretty much believe that he allowed himself to be crucified. It just means that in a very clear sense, Jesus was "Muslim". This sort of thinking arises from the idea that Muhammad didn't invent the notion of God or the ways in which people relate to God.
So... is religion defined by the outward appearance of a thing or essential spirit of a thing?
Jedster
Well-Known Member
So, if someone believes in Odin or some other non-Abrahamic god, to be THE one and only god, are they also a Muslim?
Ponder This
Well-Known Member
As to whether Jesus was Jewish:
Jew means "a member of the people and cultural community whose traditional religion is Judaism and who trace their origins through the ancient Hebrew people of Israel to Abraham" (which is a modern meaning of the word as language continuously reinvents itself).
Etymologically, a "Jew" is "a member of the tribe of Judah", that is to say of the Kingdom of Judah after Israel split into two pieces (The Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Judah). All Israelites became Jews when the Kingdom of Judah took over Israel. It's easy to see that Jesus was Jewish as he simply had to be born from a Jewish mother to be Jewish.
However, usually when people start parading around that Jesus was Jewish, what they actually mean, is that he adhered to the Law as laid out in the Covenant that exists between Israel and God, which is different from how Christians today live. Christians worship on Sunday instead of Saturday, eat pork, and aren't compelled to circumcise their children, for example.
Jew means "a member of the people and cultural community whose traditional religion is Judaism and who trace their origins through the ancient Hebrew people of Israel to Abraham" (which is a modern meaning of the word as language continuously reinvents itself).
Etymologically, a "Jew" is "a member of the tribe of Judah", that is to say of the Kingdom of Judah after Israel split into two pieces (The Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Judah). All Israelites became Jews when the Kingdom of Judah took over Israel. It's easy to see that Jesus was Jewish as he simply had to be born from a Jewish mother to be Jewish.
However, usually when people start parading around that Jesus was Jewish, what they actually mean, is that he adhered to the Law as laid out in the Covenant that exists between Israel and God, which is different from how Christians today live. Christians worship on Sunday instead of Saturday, eat pork, and aren't compelled to circumcise their children, for example.
Ponder This
Well-Known Member
It seems that that depends upon the meaning of the word "Odin". I'm not familiar with "Odin" being taken to mean the "One and Only God". Perhaps you can enlighten us.
arbe waeishrun
New Member
No. A Muslim is one who submits to the true One God and knows him, and you know him through the prophets and messengers that He has sent since time of Adam pbuh.
arbe waeishrun
New Member
The fact is that Jesus uses the word MUSHLAM. "Ein talmeed na'leh 'al rabbo; shekken kal adam she'MUSHLAM yihyeh k'rabbo." - Luke 6:40.
Syriac-English / Syriac-Arabic Dictionary, by Louis Costaz, 1986 Beirut :
(Mishalmana) = Perfect; complete.
Dictionary of the Targumim, Talmud, Midrashic Lit
(Mishlam) = Completion, End.
Oraham's Dictionary of the stabilized and enriched Assyrian language and English, by Alexander Joseph Oraham, 1941
(Mishlmana) = Muslim, Mussulman
arbe waeishrun
New Member
I don't see a problem with the context and Jesus using the word Mushlam. A Mushlam/Muslim (One who submits to God) can be the teacher and show those who do not submit to God how to behave.
Did Jesus speak English? No, he didn't. He used the word Mushlam.
"Ein talmeed na'leh 'al rabbo; shekken kal adam she'MUSHLAM yihyeh k'rabbo." - Luke 6:40, Source: Aramaic Bible Society
arbe waeishrun
New Member
You can be a Jew and a Muslim, you can be Korean and Muslim, you can be Red Indian and Muslim for example. Jewish is ethnic term for the people of the Tribe of Judah. You can be from the Tribe of Judah and a Mushlam/Muslim, submitting to God. Believers from the tribe of Judah who truly submitted to the One God, worshipped him as he wanted to be worshiped and followed his messengers were Muslims.
In regards to Prophet Muhammad pbuhap,
The Glad Tidings of Jesus℗ and Muhammad℗
Question: The prophets of the Old Testament promised the coming of Jesus℗, so where is the promise concerning Muhammad℗ in it if he is the possessor of the eternal religion?
Answer by Imam Ahmed al-Hasan al-Yamani (pbuh): Is it required that there be a promise with the direct name or the symbol?! I believe that the issue of the absence of Jesus or Yeshua’s name in the Old Testament, as a promised one, is a concluded matter. Thus nothing remains but the symbol. And we have clarified symbolic passages from the Old Testament whose interpretation refers to the Messenger Muhammad℗, just as they have interpreted symbolic passages as referring to Jesus, peace be upon him.* And before showing some of these passages, I say: We clarified the evidence for the Proof or Vicegerent of God on His earth or the sent prophet and we proved it through reasoning, wisdom, and passages from the Torah, Gospel and Quran.* So whoever requests the truth from among the People of the Book, like the Jews and the Christians, should observe the law of recognizing the vicegerent which we clarified, and its three clauses: the will or text, knowledge and wisdom, and the banner or the supremacy of God; and let him observe whether reasoning or wisdom say otherwise.† Also, let him turn the pages of the Torah and see, have the messengers left wills mentioning those who succeed them or have they not? And these are some passages as an example of the wills of the prophets mentioning the one who succeeds them:‡ Deuteronomy, Chapter 31: [14And the Lord said to Moses, “Behold, the days approach when you must die. Call Joshua and present yourselves in the tent of meeting, that I may commission him.” And Moses and Joshua went and presented themselves in the tent of meeting. 15And the Lord appeared in the tent in a pillar of cloud. And the pillar of cloud stood over the entrance of the tent.] Deuteronomy, Chapter 33: [1 This is the blessing with which Moses the man of God blessed the Children of Israel before his death. 2 He said, “The Lord came from Sinai and dawned from Seir upon us; he shone forth from Mount Paran (Faran); he came from the ten thousands of holy ones, with flaming fire at his right hand. 3 Yes, he loved his people, all his holy ones were in his hand; so they followed in your steps, receiving direction from you”] And 1 Kings, Chapter 1: [32King David said, “Call to me Zadok the priest, Nathan the prophet, and Benaiah the son of Jehoiada.” So they came before the king. 33And the king said to them, “Take with you the servants of your lord and have Solomon my son ride on my own mule, and bring him down to Gihon. 34And let Zadok the priest and Nathan the prophet there anoint him king over Israel. Then blow the trumpet and say, ‘Long live King Solomon!’ 35You shall then come up after him, and he shall come and sit on my throne, for he shall be king in my place. And I have appointed him to be ruler over Israel and over Judah.” 36And Benaiah the son of Jehoiada answered the king, “Amen! May the Lord, the God of my lord the king, say so. 37As the Lord has been with my lord the king, even so may he be with Solomon, and make his throne greater than the throne of my lord King David.”] And 1 Kings, Chapter 2: [1 When David’s time to die drew near, he commanded Solomon his son, saying, 2 “I am about to go the way of all the earth. Be strong, and show yourself a man, 3 and keep the charge of the Lord your God, walking in his ways and keeping his statutes, his commandments, his rules, and his testimonies, as it is written in the Law of Moses, that you may prosper in all that you do and wherever you turn, 4 that the Lord may establish his word that he spoke concerning me, saying, ‘If your sons pay close attention to their way, to walk before me in faithfulness with all their heart and with all their soul, you shall not lack a man on the throne of Israel.’”] And let them also consider: Have the sent prophets used their knowledge as proof, and the fact that they speak with wisdom, or have they not?* And have the prophets demanded the supremacy of God in the Torah or have they not?† 8
And let them look at what Moses did with those who believed in him and accepted him, it was only to have them migrate from the land of the tyrant in order to apply the supremacy of God upon them in another land.* 9 Therefore, the issue is settled for every reasonable one who seeks the truth, and it does not go beyond the law which we have clarified and proved through reasoning and texts from the three divine religions. And Muhammad℗ came with the will and the text from those before him, as in the Torah and the Gospel, and he came with knowledge and wisdom, and with the banner of allegiance to God or the supremacy of God which he demanded. And God wished for him to apply it on a spot of this earth. And this is an example of the text that mentions the Messenger of God Muhammad℗ in the Old Testament: Genesis, Chapter 21: [14So Abraham rose early in the morning and took bread and a skin of water and gave it to Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, along with the child, and sent her away. And she departed and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba. 15When the water in the skin was gone, she put the child under one of the bushes. 16Then she went and sat down opposite him a good way off, about the distance of a bowshot, for she said, “Let me not look on the death of the child.” And as she sat opposite him, she lifted up her voice and wept. 17And God heard the voice of the boy, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What troubles you, Hagar? Fear not, for God has heard the voice of the boy where he is. 18Up! Lift up the boy, and hold him fast with your hand, for I will make him into a great nation.” 19Then God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water. And she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink. 20And God was with the boy, and he grew up. He lived in the wilderness and became an expert with the bow. 21 He lived in the wilderness of Paran.] And I do not believe a rational person would say that according to God the disbelievers, polytheists and idol worshippers are a great nation, or that God considers the multitudes to be a great nation. So what is intended by a great nation — and the greatness belongs to Almighty God — is the prophets and successors℗, meaning that what is intended by the great nation of Ishmael℗ is prophets and successors℗ from his lineage, and those are Muhammad and the progeny of Muhammad℗ in particular, the vicegerents of God on His earth.* This is an example of the text that mentions the Messenger of God Muhammad℗ in the Old and New Testament (the Torah and the Gospel):
arbe waeishrun
New Member
continues from last post ;
Habakkuk, Chapter 3: [1 A prayer of Habakkuk the prophet, according to Shigionoth. 2 O Lord, I have heard the report of you, and your work, O Lord, do I fear. In the midst of the years revive it; in the midst of the years make it known; in wrath remember mercy. 3 God came from Teman,* and the Holy One from Mount Paran. Selah His splendor covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise. 4 His brightness was like the light; rays flashed from his hand; and there he veiled his power. 5 Before him went pestilence, and plague followed at his heels.] The meaning: [God came from Teman]: meaning God came from Yemen. And [the Holy One from Mount Paran]: meaning the Holy One came from Mecca.† And God is far above coming from the sky, let alone from the earth, because coming and going require movement and therefore occurrence, and thus negating the absolute divinity, so it cannot be considered that the one who comes from Teman or Yemen is Almighty God, or that the one who comes from Paran is the Holy One, the Almighty God; for this as well as the other attributes such as the hand, which God is far above. [His brightness was like the light; rays flashed from his hand; and there he veiled his power. Before him went pestilence, and plague followed at his heels.] Rather the one who comes is the Servant of God Muhammad℗ and his progeny℗ after him, as they are from Mecca, and Muhammad and his progeny℗ are Yamanis as well. So the coming of Muhammad℗ is the coming of God because Muhammad is God among the creation, and Muhammad is the appearance of God in Paran as I previously clarified in more than one place. And the fact that Teman is Yemen has been mentioned even in the Gospel in the words of Jesus℗ when he described the Queen of Yemen as the Queen of the South (or Teman).* Matthew, Chapter 12: [42The queen of the South will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater than Solomon is here.] Luke, Chapter 11: [31The queen of the South will rise up at the judgment with the men of this generation and condemn them, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon.] And the knowledge and the wisdom brought by Muhammad℗ in the Quran, every just person would still say that it is overwhelming wisdom that cannot come except from Him, the Almighty.* Also, Muhammad℗ demanded the supremacy of God. Moreover, when he had the opportunity he applied the supremacy of God and clearly stated that the truth exists within the supremacy of God and that all Muslim sects which leave the supremacy of God are misguided sects. And the narration of the saved sect is more famous than fire on a flag, and it is well-known in the Sunni books: ﴾This nation will divide into 73 sects, all of them will be in the hellfire save one.” They said, “O Messenger of Allah! And which one will that be?” He replied, “The one which is upon what I and my companions are upon today.”﴿
Therefore, the description of the saved sect is that it consists of a leader appointed by God, as was the Messenger of God℗, and believers in this divine leadership, as were the companions of the Messenger of God, peace be upon him and his progeny. What remains is the issue of specious arguments and controversy, as one says why did Muhammad do this, and why did he say that, and if he was a messenger he would not have said this and he would not have done that, and the Quran contradicts the Arabic grammar, and [other] specious arguments which can direct themselves toward any other messenger or any other book or any other divine religion, and they are refuted arguments.* Whereas we must note that the one who shifts to such arguments before he responds to the proof, refutes it, and shows that it is not a proof, he in reality acknowledges the proof and the ideology which he argues against and he validates it. Moreover, by his specious argument, he is in the process of clarifying the ideology and manifesting it. This is because the specious arguments do not go beyond being specious arguments that are refuted and of no real value except to be a disparaging tyrannical tool used by the clerics of misguidance and tyrants to belittle their followers and maintain them upon the path of blindly following and imitating them, in order to maintain their positions and worldly life. And after their false ideology is demolished and all their specious arguments fall, they return to the most petty specious argument, with the goal of stirring the emotions of their followers toward their fathers and ancestors. And it is the specious argument of Pharaoh against Moses, the prophet of God℗, where Pharaoh said: ﴾“Then what is the case of the former generations?”﴿ Quran Chapter “[Arabic letters] Ta Ha” 20:51, so the answer of Moses℗ was: ﴾“The knowledge thereof is with my Lord in a record. My Lord neither errs nor forgets.”﴿. Quran Chapter “Ta Ha” 20:52. *
The problem is your suggested translation of Mushlam inserts something into the sentence. While it may seem like a nice idea to you to imagine that the word Muslim must have existed, this is not what the verse is about in context; and so your double-reverse-engineered guess about the translation must be incorrect.
The fact is he does not. Please read the link I shared in that post.
If Jesus was a Muslim, and Christians are followers of Jesus, then Christians are Muslims.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
As you know each word has multiple meanings.
I translated it, - keeping it in context, - and word order, - and came up with - 6:40.
The words - blind - lead - and fall into a ditch - lead to the word's translation as makes-straight, - or corrects, = as in makes-straight the path so they don't go off course and fall into the ditch. Same with corrects - the path.
Luk 6:39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
Luk 6:40 So-cannot the pupil, in-place-of the instructor; as-he makes-straight/corrects: but-yet any can become like the instructor.
The regular translation has -
Luk 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
However, it actually starts with a negative, and the word being translated "perfect" is in the first part of the sentence, - It does not follow "but every one". The word translated "above" is also in-place-of, instead of, etc. They also leave out the "he" between instructor and katartizō "makes-straight/corrects.
Luk 6:40 So-cannot the pupil, in-place-of the instructor; as-he makes-straight/corrects: but-yet any can become like the instructor.
Your translation just seems to be a translation of the standard translation, which is not correct.
"So-cannot the pupil" is in reply to the answer to the question - "Can the blind lead the blind?" The answer is NO - thus "So-cannot the pupil".
EDIT - Forgot to add - Jesus did NOT write this, - thus not likely in Aramaic.
*
(He legislated for you the same religion He passed over to Noah, to you and to Ibraham, Moses and Eesa(Jesus) that, Ye should hold firm to the religion and don't split up)
Noble Quran 42:13
So all divine religions are from one God(Allah) with same message which is no God but Allah who is one and nothing is like him, omnipresent, omnipotent, all hearing,all listening
if you look over uptodate Christianity you see a disfigured mutation. Christianity of Jesus the messenger, nowadays is preserved within the prestine Islam. all teachings of Jesus like forbidding adultery, women has to cover their heads and to wear decently, etc are well preserved in Islam but not at all in todays world of Christianity.
Noble Quran 42:13
So all divine religions are from one God(Allah) with same message which is no God but Allah who is one and nothing is like him, omnipresent, omnipotent, all hearing,all listening
if you look over uptodate Christianity you see a disfigured mutation. Christianity of Jesus the messenger, nowadays is preserved within the prestine Islam. all teachings of Jesus like forbidding adultery, women has to cover their heads and to wear decently, etc are well preserved in Islam but not at all in todays world of Christianity.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
It is known that Muhammad could read or write, had silly wife to write for him.
Why not Muhammad God not have Muhammad to write, like all other Prophets.
No Muhammad had silly woman to write for him, Muhammad not know what silly woman write, Muhammad not know, Muhammad could not read, but had silly woman read for him
Why God of Muhammad not have Muhammad to read. No had silly woman to read and write for Muhammad.
How muhammad be Prophet. Muhammad not write or can read. Had silly woman to write and read for him.
Very silly woman smarter than prophet Muhammad.
Silly woman should be prophet. Not muhammad.
Muhammad false prophet in desert.
Jesus said no go to desert false prophet in desert. Matthew 24:24-26.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Jesus said nothing for women to wear cover over heads.
Jesus said, no go to desert false prophet in desert. Matthew 24:24-26.
Muhammad lived in desert. Jesus say false prophet in desert. No go there in desert false prophet in desert.
Muhammad could not write or read, had silly woman to write for him.
Why Allah not have Muhammad to write, No had silly woman to write.
Silly woman should be Prophet. Silly woman more smarter than muhammad
Silly woman should be prophet. Not Muhammad not write or read.
Had silly woman to read and write for muhammad.
Muhammad to dumb not read or write, had very smart silly woman to read and write.
Why Allah not have Muhammad to read and write like all prophets. No Allah had silly woman to read and write.
whirlingmerc
Well-Known Member
Of course there are always similarities and differences. One might have to take some large steps back and look at a wider picture.
Jedster
Well-Known Member
So Muslim means one who believes in the god mentioned in the Torah, NT and Quaran only. Not all monotheists.
So all those Hindus who worship Krishna are not Muslims?
Here is @Jainarayan 's post from above,
Soooo... Hindus who follow what Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita “Abandon all varieties of dharmas [religions, paths] and simply surrender unto me alone. I shall liberate you from all sinful reactions; do not fear.” become Muslims?