Jesus Empty tomb narratives

[Dawnofhope]

And the fact that neither Paul nor Mark, the earliest Christian authors, mention the fantastic claims surrounding the birth of Jesus, together with the previous two metaphors support the zero likelihood of the Qur'an's version of Jesus' birth.

Therefore, there is zero basis for Baha'ulla's credibility.

restating my position in response to yet another restatement of the standard propaganda, by a metaphorical Abrahamic Baha'i, that everything in the Bible is metaphorical.

LOL! "somewhat aggressively"?

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....

I am hardly a biblical literalist. Personally, I could reject the doctrine of the Incarnation and still believe that Jesus was and is the Son of God and that, while on earth, he was executed by Roman soldiers, entombed, and resurrected, and that he ascended into heaven.

You don’t see any irony?

My rejection of Islam theology is not new. But what the Moslems and I have in common is that we all reject Baha'i theology.

Bahá’is rejection of a literal resurrection is nothing new. A view shared by everyone with the exception of the majority of Christians. It not really an argument though, is it?

 

[Dawnofhope]

And that ridiculous Roman story about the African general Hannibal who crossed the Alps
and invaded Rome itself - that's just a metaphor for the "enemy at the gates", a cautionary
racist myth about barbarians and why we need to destroy them.
It seems that history is full of these ridiculous accounts that have bearing in reality.

I’m not the one believing the incarnation of God literally ascended through the stratosphere into outer space thus resurrecting not only Jesus but an obsolete cosmology.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yes, the CATHOLIC CHURCH certainly evolved over the centuries. That's got nothing to
do with the Apostolic Church or Jesus' teachings. In fact, it was during the times of the
Acts we see people breaking away and returning to symbolic worship, ie holy days,
physical altars, regulations etc..

Are you seriously claiming the Catholic Church had nothing to do with the Teachings of Christ and the Apostles?

 

[Terry Sampson]

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....

B-a-a-a!

You don’t see any irony?

That a human should die and that God the Father should find something worth resurrecting and take elsewhere? No, I don't.

Bahá’is rejection of a literal resurrection is nothing new. A view shared by everyone with the exception of the majority of Christians. It not really an argument though, it it?

Where differences are irreconcilable, arguments are rarely little more than tedious or boring restatements of unvarying positions.

 

[Dawnofhope]

That a human should die and that God the Father should find something worth resurrecting and take elsewhere?

In other words, literalism.

Where differences are irreconcilable, arguments are rarely little more than tedious or boring restatements of unvarying positions.

Then why bother with interfaith dialogue, discussion and debate if that’s how you really feel about it?

 

[Terry Sampson]

In other words, literalism.

I cite one thing in Scripture that I accept "literally" happened, and that makes me a Biblical literalist. LOL! You may have forgotten Paul's words on the matter. If so, I'll restate them, ... differently. If I didn't believe in Jesus' resurrection and ascension, I'd be as strong an atheist as my good buddy Aupmanyav is and I'd still think Bahaism is malarkey.

Then why bother with interfaith dialogue, discussion and debate if that’s how you really feel about it?

Doctor says it's good for me to keep my mind active, and from time to time, keeping my mind active involves reminding folks that my silence doesn't always mean that I consent.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I cite one thing in Scripture that I accept "literally" happened, and that makes me a Biblical literalist. LOL! You may have forgotten Paul's words on the matter. If so, I'll restate them, ... differently. If I didn't believe in Jesus' resurrection and ascension, I'd be as strong an atheist as my good buddy Aupmanyav is and I'd still think Bahaism is malarkey.

The resurrection and ascension are two things. Add in Jesus being the Son of God and I suspect John 14:6 would be another.

The irony is that the majority of theists including many Christians don’t believe in the literal resurrection. They would not consider themselves
atheists but in your head you need to see them as non-believers. It is because of the need, yes need, to understand 1 Corinthians 15:4-9 literally.

I like Aup a lot (and you too) and know his disdain for the Baha’is extends to the Abrahamic religions generally, especially Christianity and Islam that has so much negative history with India.

The Baha’i Faith is straight forward really. With Bahá’u’lláh we have a clear record of His Life and Teachings unlike Jesus and Muhammad. View Him as you will.

Doctor says it's good for me to keep my mind active, and from time to time, keeping my mind active involves reminding folks that my silence doesn't always mean that I consent.

So its therapy? Of course I already know you disagree with the Baha’i Faith. Does your intellect feel keener and more vibrant with reminding me?

 

[Terry Sampson]

It is because of the need, yes need, to understand 1 Corinthians 15:4-9 literally.

Actually, that's not true. I believe because, as Paul wrote: 1 Corinthians 15:19 "If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied."

The Baha’i Faith is straight forward really.

Straight forward?

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

• The reality of the Divinity is sanctified and exalted beyond the comprehension of all created things, can in no wise be imagined by mortal mind and understanding, and transcends all human conception.
• For that divine reality to descend into stations and degrees would be tantamount to deficiency, contrary to perfection, and utterly impossible. It has ever been, and will ever remain, in the loftiest heights of sanctity and purity.

Bahaullah to Bahais is a Manifestation of God. It means, His presence was presence of God Himself.

Congratulations. Now I don't even know what a Baha'i means when they say: "The Baha'i Faith is straight forward."

So its therapy?

Therapy? No. Therapeutic? Yes.

Does your intellect feel keener and more vibrant with reminding me?

Absolutely. If it didn't, I wouldn't do it.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Actually, that's not true. I believe because, as Paul wrote: 1 Corinthians 15:19 "If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied."

St Paul certainly emphasises the necessity of belief in the resurrection. I agree with him. However some ways of understanding this chapter of his epistle have outlived its usefulness for some of us.

Straight forward?

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

• The reality of the Divinity is sanctified and exalted beyond the comprehension of all created things, can in no wise be imagined by mortal mind and understanding, and transcends all human conception.
• For that divine reality to descend into stations and degrees would be tantamount to deficiency, contrary to perfection, and utterly impossible. It has ever been, and will ever remain, in the loftiest heights of sanctity and purity.

These words make perfect sense to me, but I appreciate they don't to you. They refer to the concept of the Divinity of Christ which is an essential aspect of the concept of the Trinity. I would consider the Christian Bible to answer the question is Jesus God incarnate?

1 John 4:12
"No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

1 KIng 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Scripture seems to imply that Jesus can not possibly be God incarnate.

Perhaps it would be better to think of Jesus as being a perfect image or reflection of Gods' divine attributes?

Colossians 1:15 in regards to Jesus
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature"

John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 8:28
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

You may not agree but the concepts based on both Baha'i and Christian scriptures are clear enough.

Congratulations. Now I don't even know what a Baha'i means when they say: "The Baha'i Faith is straight forward."

C’mon!!!

Therapy? No. Therapeutic? Yes.

OK

Absolutely. If it didn't, I wouldn't do it.

However communication needs to move beyond one person feeling better because they have off-loaded, don't you think?

 

[PruePhillip]

Are you seriously claiming the Catholic Church had nothing to do with the Teachings of Christ and the Apostles?

The Catholic Church has as much to do with the Apostolic Church as does the Mormon Church.
I doubt even early Catholics, possibly like Diotrephes (from John's epistle) would have been
stunned to see what became of this church once it assumed the mantel of Rome itself, and
essentially ruled the world.

 

[PruePhillip]

I’m not the one believing the incarnation of God literally ascended through the stratosphere into outer space thus resurrecting not only Jesus but an obsolete cosmology.

My reading of God is that He doesn't exist in "outer space" or even "inner space"
Other than the metaphoric "living within us" I suggest that God exists outside of
the universe. The universe simply could not have created itself when it didn't exist.
So there's no stratospheric Jesus I am afraid.
Having an issue with believing in a risen Christ? David, about 1000 years before
Jesus and Isaiah about 600 years spoke of the Messiah as suffering and dying in
our stead - and looking back and being pleased with what He accomplished. And
His story would be told to the generations that are yet to be born that he has done
this. And told to the Gentiles as the Jews will not accept Him, and will for a long
while lose their nation.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The Catholic Church has as much to do with the Apostolic Church as does the Mormon Church.
I doubt even early Catholics, possibly like Diotrephes (from John's epistle) would have been
stunned to see what became of this church once it assumed the mantel of Rome itself, and
essentially ruled the world.

The Catholic Church has its origins based on the appointment of St Peter by Christ Himself (Matthew 16:18). To this day it remains the largest religious denomination on the planet with over a billion adherents. All other Christian denominations have branched from Catholicism at some point. You can criticise the Catholic Church as much as you want but its still founded on the Gospel of Christ and the Teachings of His Apostles.

 

[Dawnofhope]

My reading of God is that He doesn't exist in "outer space" or even "inner space"
Other than the metaphoric "living within us" I suggest that God exists outside of
the universe. The universe simply could not have created itself when it didn't exist.
So there's no stratospheric Jesus I am afraid.
Having an issue with believing in a risen Christ? David, about 1000 years before
Jesus and Isaiah about 600 years spoke of the Messiah as suffering and dying in
our stead - and looking back and being pleased with what He accomplished. And
His story would be told to the generations that are yet to be born that he has done
this. And told to the Gentiles as the Jews will not accept Him, and will for a long
while lose their nation.

I really think you are on shaky ground using any Hebrew Scriptures to prove the resurrection of Christ but go ahead. I’m all ears.

I agree Jesus didn’t ascend in outer space via the stratosphere to be with His Father in heaven. We need an alternative narrative to account for Acts of the Apostles 1:9-11.

Christ instructed His Apostles they should preach the Gospel to all nations. This remarkable feat was eventually achieved during the nineteenth century, the Catholic Church playing a vital role.

 

[Terry Sampson]

St Paul certainly emphasises the necessity of belief in the resurrection. I agree with him

I have no idea what you're agreeing with, and am no longer curious.

However some ways of understanding this chapter of his epistle have outlived its usefulness for some of us.

I am no longer curious.

the concepts based on both Baha'i and Christian scriptures are clear enough.

My curiosity in Baha'i opinions is dead.

However communication needs to move beyond one person feeling better because they have off-loaded, don't you think?

It would, but unfortunately I'm not able to put a person who is a Moderator on my "Ignore" list along with all the other Baha'i.

 

[metis]

I think that if you are interested you should investigate the claims of these religions and determine for yourself if they are divinely inspired or not.

Since I taught a comparative religions course, I definitely have done that.

Of course we can never prove such a thing, all we can do is look at the evidence.

Agreed, but objective evidence is quite scarce, needless to say. Therefore, much boils down to what one chooses to believe based on possibly other factors. .

 

[PruePhillip]

I really think you are on shaky ground using any Hebrew Scriptures to prove the resurrection of Christ but go ahead. I’m all ears.

I agree Jesus didn’t ascend in outer space via the stratosphere to be with His Father in heaven. We need an alternative narrative to account for Acts of the Apostles 1:9-11.

Christ instructed His Apostles they should preach the Gospel to all nations. This remarkable feat was eventually achieved during the nineteenth century, the Catholic Church playing a vital role.

The problem with "all nations" is that new nations keep appearing, ie North and South Sudan.
Our Old Testament and that of the Jews doesn't differ that much when it comes to the one
who will suffer in our stead, rise again and be satisfied. In the interlinear bible it says His
exploits will be recounted to generations yet born that "he has done this." Psalm 22. And the
interlinear Isaiah 53 says He shall pay the price for many with his life, but then shall see the
rewards of his suffering.

 

[PruePhillip]

The Catholic Church has its origins based on the appointment of St Peter by Christ Himself (Matthew 16:18). To this day it remains the largest religious denomination on the planet with over a billion adherents. All other Christian denominations have branched from Catholicism at some point. You can criticise the Catholic Church as much as you want but its still founded on the Gospel of Christ and the Teachings of His Apostles.

And records show that one Diotrephes was its first Archbishop. This is most like the
same soul mentioned as standing up to John, and forming his own church.
I don't wish to attack the RCC. I have often said when it is gone (as it shall go) then
so too will Western civilization.

 

[Muffled]

I believe each person has his/her own perspective and/or experience.

 

[Muffled]

Because none of the authors was at the tomb and each got the story from a different person who may or may not have been at the tomb. One thing the few stories all have in common is that Jesus was not still in the tomb AND dead. And the other thing that the few stories all have in common is that Jesus died involuntarily, at the hands of Roman soldiers, and was put in a tomb.

My brothers and I were together in the same place when something happened years ago, but if you ask us about different events that we all witnessed first-hand, ... surprise! surprise! you'll never get exactly the same story from all of us. And God forbid that you ask my brother's kids or friends to tell you what happened when the four of us were present at different events. Quite a few will be surprised that we were present, others may know that some of us brothers were present, and maybe even one person will remember who they heard was present. Texts didn't "get" corrupted, one or more or all were faulty to begin with. Is that still really great mystery??? Neither God the Father nor Jesus nor the Holy Spirit appeared to each of the authors and said: "Pay attention, now, and write this down" and anybody who thinks one of them did is a knucklehead.

Sheesh.

I believe John was at the tomb with Peter who has Mark ghost writing for him.

 

[Muffled]

Thus, in your view, Bible is not inspired by God, for if it was, God had power to ensure His Holy Book will be written and preserved without errors or contrediction. Why wouldn't God write His holy Book though second hand stories passing from one person to another, with allowing mistakes to happen?

I believe it is the Word of God and thoughts to the contrary have no basis. Everything is there that should be there and there are no contradictions.