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Featured Jesus Empty tomb narratives

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by InvestigateTruth, Apr 30, 2020.

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  1. Because Bible texts became somewhat corrupted

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Because this event was not physical. It was a vision, each saw a different vision.

    1 vote(s)
    5.3%
  3. Because authors of Bible failed to come up with a consistent story.

    10 vote(s)
    52.6%
  4. Other... please explain.

    8 vote(s)
    42.1%
  1. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    The reason it was said, was against occult practice. The Temple pyramid trans mutation sciences that had harmed his life and body, and forced the atmospheric sacrifice of the gas mass of CHRIST light mass that science burnt and changed by placing a large amount of UFO metal radiation dispersion into it.

    For science occult converting purposes......began as changes to the God stone fusion...for the CHRIST heavenly gas mass was in co joined union with stone remaining fused.

    Very simple really.

    When science says its owns cosmological themes against God as Satan, and the term RELATIVITY about Satan is the great deep pit of space....colder space, emptier space and a higher pressurized space....and think these themes for maths and for formula/strings as beginnings before the Heavens existed......then he made that inference as a reminder, that you did not zero out CHRIST....but had tried.

    Many statements are meant to force the reader to think, for what reason was the statement made...when science knows that day light exists for 12 hours on one side of the planet/God face.
     
  2. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Why should He? Are you special?
    They really cannot be about Jesus since Jesus said His work was finished here are He was no more in the world.

    John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.


    Moreover, there are no verses in the NT wherein Jesus ever said He would return to earth, not one single verse.
     
  3. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Strange that a Baha'i would take something from the NT as literal. When Jesus was working with his Dad and he completed a project, he could say "it is finished". Yes, that project. Jesus didn't complete everything the Messiah was supposed to do. If he doesn't come back and restore Israel and sit on the throne of David and rule from Jerusalem, then was he the Messiah?

    If he wasn't the Messiah, then what was he? A person who Baha'is say was virgin born but did not rise from the dead. What was so special about his life and what he taught that his followers let themselves be killed over it? His parables? The Sermon on the Mount? Or, the legend of a God/man that conquered death and Satan? It might not be something you and I believe, but I do believe that his followers believed those things. And some of his followers still do. And, if by the remotest chance that those things really are true, then a true believer in Jesus is very special. They have the Holy Spirit inside them. They have their sins forgiven. And they are holding fast on to the teachings of Jesus until he comes back for them, like they believe he promised.

    And yet again, a Baha'i tearing into the beliefs of a person from another religion. Sure, that's what most of them do to the Baha'is. But is it what Baha'is are supposed to do back at them? Do we know what he believes and why? Or, are we assuming? Or, worse... pre-judging? Of course we are? We don't know a thing about most all the other people here and their religions, yet we judge them as being blind and lost.
     
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  4. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I would hardly call responding to a post posted to me "tearing into the beliefs of a person."

    Moreover, all I was doing was pointing out what is in the NT, and what isn't, regarding the return of Christ.
    Yes, I know what he believes because all I was responding to what he believes.

    Muffled said: I don't believe I ever said it would be obvious but those verses are not about a new religion but about the return of Jesus.
     
  5. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    IT, the Baha'i, says the authors of the NT "always" meant it metaphorically. But, God "inspired" them to write it to sound as if the event really happened. Then, 2000 years later, God had Baha'u'llah make it clear that Jesus never really came back from the dead. He stayed dead and rotted away. The resurrection was only symbolic.

    Muffled, the Christian, doesn't believe the "metaphorical" Baha'i view.

    My question is... How did God get four different Gospel writers to write a slightly different resurrection story and make it sound as if it really happened, but it was symbolic.

    IT says that Baha'is believe the Bible to be the inspired Word of God. So God inspired the disciples to write what they wrote? Which means what? Each writer got an idea in their heads to write a symbolic story of Jesus coming back to life?

    Then TB chimes in with questioning whether the disciples, meaning the Apostles, actually wrote it. IT says that he did mean the Apostles, but it could very well have been someone else?

    So God may have inspired, let's say "Joe Blow" to write a gospel and put someone else's name on it. In the story he tells of the crucifixion and burial of Jesus, but then... God inspires him to write a fictional, symbolic story about an empty tomb. And that Jesus had risen from the grave, and talked and ate with his disciples. They even touched him, but... that part of the Gospel story didn't really happen. Although, it sounds like the writer was continuing with the story of what happened to Jesus after he had died and was buried. It might have sounded historical, but Baha'is say at that point the story becomes symbolic.

    After saying why I don't think it was symbolic, IT asks "Why? I don't think it is possible for God to have inspired the writers to include a fictional, symbolic resurrection story? He thinks we need to use "logic"? He has good, and I assume "logical" reasons to believe that the resurrection was symbolic, but that I have given no logical reasons? What? Seriously? How about the Baha'i symbolic explanation is the stupidest thing I've ever heard?" But no, let me give IT a good reason. Now the problem is he then says that why I don't think that God could have inspired something, anything, in the whole Bible to have been symbolic? Now all you readers are up to date. So now to answer IT, aka Investigate Truth.

    No, IT we are talking about the resurrection story, not the whole Bible. My view is that if it didn't happen as written, then, I think there is a good chance that the Gospel writers made it up. Is that logical enough for you?
     
  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Only God has the answer to that question.
    Also, only God knows why He allowed them to write those stories.

    You can keep asking these questions until the day you die, but you will never get the answers. Meanwhile, the clock is ticking away and you are not a young man.
     
  7. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Yes you were responding to him saying that the Holy Spirit would let him know. And you say...

    The insinuation is that the Holy Spirit won't let him know, because he is not special. And again you cherry pick the "It is finished" verse" to show that Jesus can't be coming back.. his mission is over and done. And again I ask, if he didn't finish the work the Messiah is supposed to do, what did he do to qualify himself as the Messiah to the Jews? The Jews are not expecting four "Messiahs." Three so so messiahs, and then the grand finale of a Messiah in Baha'u'llah. And still, the Messianic prophecies are only partially fulfilled. But how do Baha'is get around that the Messiah was to sit on the throne of David? Or, is that another one of those "symbolic" prophecies and has been fulfilled on a "spiritual" level?
     
  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    That is true, but so what? Besides, the NT says that Christ will come like a thief in the night who sneaks in and out, so He won't be letting anyone know ahead of time. Jesus even said nobody knows when the Son of Man will come, not even the Son, only the Father. Why should the Father clue anyone in?
    Jesus did not qualify Himself as the Messiah to the Jews because the Messiah they were/are expecting was not Jesus. Jesus was a Messiah, but not the Messiah of the latter days.
    The Jews interpret their scriptures to suit themselves so they can be the chosen ones who the Messiah is coming to and so he will restore the Torah, or so they believe. There is no actual throne where David will sit, a throne is symbolic of one who has power and will rule.

    “THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David. Thus hath My Pen spoken that which the histories of bygone ages have related. At this time, however, David crieth aloud and saith: ‘O my loving Lord! Do Thou number me with such as have stood steadfast in Thy Cause, O Thou through Whom the faces have been illumined, and the footsteps have slipped!’” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 89-90

    I had been posting to a Orthodox Jew on another forum but he de-compartmentalized and starting insulting me and Baha'ullah so that conversation is over.

    This is what he said:

    BTW, gleanings are scraps of information and your gleanings are fake scraps of Baha’u’llah crap.

    Isaiah 2:--- for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge between the nations and reprove many peoples, and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift the sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore. (Isaiah 2:3-4, Micah 4:2-4)

    And this is what I said in response:

    Isaiah 2 King James Version (KJV)

    3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

    4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

    Hmmmmm… There is nothing about the Torah in these verses or in any other English translation of the Bible. You interpret to suit.

    for out of Zion shall go forth the law of Baha'u'llah.

    Then he said: If you knew Hebrew you would see that the word you translate in vs. 2:3 as "law" is actually "Torah."

    But I could not find any translation that reads that way.

    ***********************
    The point is that the Jews believe that the Torah is the only legitimate scripture (Law of God) that ever existed or that ever will exist, and they believe that the Torah will be restored and validated when the Messiah comes.
     
  9. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe that qualifies as gobbledy gook.
     
  10. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe from the day I started looking at other religions the Holy Spirit has taken a special interest in guiding me in understanding them. So I figure He has a purpose in that. John 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

    I believe I used to think I was not special until I started talking to people who do not have as close a relationship to Jesus as I have. However it was not always so with me.

    I don't suppose you are going to count this one: Mat. 24:26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man
     
  11. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I believe that John 16:13 refers to Baha'u'llah who was the Spirit if truth that Jesus promised to send.

    John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

    I believe that lots of Christians say that.
    I do count it, but I believe it refers to Baha'u'llah, who was the return of the Son of Man who came in the clouds.
    I believe that....

    The title ‘Son of man’ is symbolic of the perfect humanity that Jesus represented, but it does not apply exclusively to Jesus. It ultimately comes from the Book of Daniel, where it refers to the Messiah. It is a Baha’i teaching that the title applies to both Jesus and Baha’u’llah.

    Baha'u'llah fulfills this prophecy because He came like lightening and He came from the east and he shone as far as the west.

    1. The king from the sunrise

    Bahá’u’lláh came from Persia, which is to the East of Israel, but to the west of India. His ministry from the time of its beginning until his last days on earth was forty years. The prophets of Syria and Palestine foretold the coming of the promised Messiah from the East. The prophets and seers from India and the Far East, said that he would appear in the West. Persia, the birthplace of Bahá’u’lláh lies in between these two, and fulfils the requirements of each.

    In the book of Enoch, it is prophesied that the Messiah of the last days shall come from the East of Israel, and that He shall come from the land now known as Persia. Enoch foretells:“And in those days the angels will assemble, and turn their heads towards the East, toward the people of Parthia and Medea, in order to excite the kings, and that a spirit of disturbance came over them, and disturbed them from off their thrones.” (Enoch 56:5). Parthia and Medea make up what is now the land of Persia, the birthplace of Bahá’u’lláh. The Jewish oracles, the Sibylline books, also mention the coming of the Messiah from the East, saying:

    “And then from the sunrise God shall send a king who shall give every land relief from the bane of war … nor shall he do these things by his own counsel, but in obedience to the good ordinances of the Mighty God.” (cited in The Messianic idea in Israel, p. 376).

    Joseph Klausner, in The Messianic idea in Israel, writes: “The ‘king from the sunrise’ is, without any doubt, the King-Messiah.”

    The prophet Ezekiel also foretold that the Messiah would come to the Holy Land, Israel, from the East. He even gave the title by which He would be known in that day: The Glory of God [or the Glory of the Lord]. Ezekiel recorded his vision of the last days, saying:“And behold, the Glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east…” (Ezekiel 43:2).

    In another place, Ezekiel says: “And the Glory of the Lord came into the house by way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.”(Ezekiel 43:4).

    I had already learned that the name Bahá’u’lláh was Persian, and when translated into English means, The Glory of God or The Glory of the Lord. His herald was called the Báb. This is also Persian, and translated into English means, The Gate.

    The Báb was the Gate by which Bahá’u’lláh, the Glory of God, entered into the hearts of men. Bahá’u’lláh had come to Israel in exile from Persia which is to the East. I was more than satisfied by my findings. I learned that Bahá’u’lláh had completed the prophesies of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Micah, Zoroaster, Buddha, Muhammad, and many secular prophesies as well—all of which pointed to the time and the place from which the Shepherd of the day of the ‘one fold’ would come.

    I marked the first proof: Fulfilled.

    William Sears, Thief in the Night, pp. 109-111
     
  12. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    Common sense says, science owns science formulas and claims beginning and end to force.

    They also say the CH gases evolved in the atmosphere, I will name them Christ in science quotes and the Immaculate form of.

    I also quote ANTI Christ, yet I did not anti Christ....hence own a science confession that stated I tried to ANTI the Christ gases.

    Ask a male did science on Earth exist before giant life....the dinosaurs?

    Obviously science would claim from archaeology, yes....and only due to ICE cooling the atmospheric gases did our life reincarnate/return to owning Nature first origin life DNA bodies.

    Reasoning.....a self owned body beginning and end is each creature. If it did not exist you cannot give a point to identify where it began, for what about the whole and complete life form?

    You can take a cell off a body, claim that it owns information to reform its own cell...but the information is not the whole body you took it from.

    That sort of human mentality is what gets us all destroyed.
     
  13. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe the context does not support that view. I will however allow you to try to justify your statement because that will be fun.
     
  14. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe that is a total misinterpretation. The B man did not come in the clouds but was born on earth. Also the shining from east to west is the sign not some metaphoric thing you espouse.
     
  15. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    What about the context does not support my view?
    I cannot proceed to justify anything unless and until I know what "you believe" requires justification.
     
  16. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    According to my beliefs, coming in the clouds does not mean coming in the physical clouds that are in the sky.

    The title ‘Son of man’ is symbolic of the perfect humanity that Jesus represented, but it does not apply exclusively to Jesus. It ultimately comes from the Book of Daniel, where it refers to the Messiah. It is a Baha’i teaching that the title applies to both Jesus and Baha’u’llah.


    To explain in brief, I believe that ‘Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven’ means that the return of the Christ Spirit promised in the Bible will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God, and will appear in the form of a human being. The term “heaven” means loftiness and exaltation. Although Jesus was delivered from the womb of His mother, in reality He descended from the heaven of the will of God. Though dwelling on this earth, His true habitation was the realms above. While walking among mortals on earth, Jesus soared in the heaven of the divine presence.

    Baha’u’llah explained the meaning of clouds in The Kitáb-i-Íqán. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that cloud our judgment and prevent us from seeing what is really there. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, the desires of men hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ.

    To further explain the teaming of clouds, Baha’is believe that the term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. They signify, in one sense, the annulment of laws, the abrogation of former Dispensations, the repeal of rituals and customs current among men. In another sense, they mean the appearance of a Manifestation of God in the image of mortal man, with such human limitations as eating and drinking, poverty and riches, sleeping and waking, and such other things as cast doubt in the minds of men, and cause them to turn away. These “veils” to recognition of a Manifestation of God are symbolically referred to as “clouds.” Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, these things hinder the souls of men from recognizing the light of the Manifestation of God.

    Thus the meaning of clouds is symbolic, not literal. Their judgment was clouded. Christians were looking for the same man Jesus in the same body that resurrected and ascended to appear in the actual physical clouds in the sky with power and great glory, trumpets and angels, but when that did not happen that way they rejected Baha’u’llah. However, if one looks at what happened before, during and after Baha’u’llah appeared there is not one prophecy that cannot be applied to Him.

    Much of this is explained in Thief in the Night by William Sears, who researched the Bible prophecies for seven years and explained exactly how they were fulfilled by the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

    Thus when Jesus said “ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven” we believe that means that His Return, the next Manifestation of God, would reside in the loftiness and exaltation of the divine presence (heaven), and would come down to earth by the will of God in the clouds (veiled from the sight of most people), like a thief in the night.

    The reason Christians missed recognizing Baha’u’llah in the mid-19th century (and still do not recognize Him) is because they are waiting for the “literal fulfillment” of those Son of man in the clouds of heaven prophecies. They expect the same physical body of Jesus to come floating down on a physical cloud from heaven, but I am sure you already know this since it is a basic Christian belief.
    I did not espouse anything metaphorical, as Baha'u'llah literally came from the east and flashed from east to west, just as Jesus predicted.

    Matthew 24:27 or as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    Please note the prophecy does not say:
    Matthew 24:27 or as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall I come as the Son of man. None of the Son of man verses about the return of Christ are in the first person, they are all in the third person, because they are referring to another man, who would be the return of the Son of man.
     
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  17. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 1:7 7"Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him." So shall it be! Amen.​

    Prophecies, prophecies, Baha'is use them and abuse them. Someone is coming in the clouds. Are the "clouds" things that obscure our sight so we don't see who that person is? Sure, maybe. But... this person is pierced and is seen by everyone? That tips the scales back to Jesus. As if that mattered. Everyone sees what they want to see. The "Return of Christ" has come and gone and the world is still suffering from trials and tribulations. Why? Because a few people, I guess the leaders of the world at the time, rejected Baha'u'llah. Did every eye see him? No. And still, a large percentage of people on the Earth have never heard of him. Was he pierced? I'm sure Baha'is can find a symbolic meaning and explanation.

    But what, again, is the Baha'i explanation why the tomb of Jesus was empty? If it was because Jesus rose from the dead, that's bad news for the Baha'is. Jesus is alive and well and coming back. If his followers stole and hid the body of Jesus, then Christianity is a hoax. And, I do believe some Baha'is have said that his body was taken and hidden away. Yet, they keep saying that Christianity is a true religion of God? How? How would a religion based on the false story of Jesus being raised from the dead be a true religion?

    I can almost agree with the Baha'is. A physical resurrection sounds impossible. But, not if God is as great as Baha'is and Christians say he is. But, there is nothing I can agree with the Baha'is how they explain away the physical resurrection. If it didn't happen... Christianity is a false religion based on nothing but myths and legends.
     
  18. Rise

    Rise Well-Known Member

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    There is no contradiction in what you quoted.

    Neither Luke nor John said there was only one angel present.

    Mark, in that verse, is focusing on one of those angels.
     
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