1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Jesus did not preach a salvation theology

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by dfnj, Nov 8, 2019.

  1. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2017
    Messages:
    2,431
    Ratings:
    +1,082
    Religion:
    My Own
    Paulism or Paulanity is not the only Gospel teaching of Jesus.

    Gospel of Thomas is very much different than the other Gospels. It is composed of 114 unvarnished sayings of Jesus. There are no narratives, no stories, no second party commentary, no Romans, no Pharisees. Rather than being presented through the the eyes of others, the reader encounters a more direct unfiltered experience of Jesus.

    The idea is for each reader to deeply ponder each saying so that each reader discovers their own insights and revelations. The goal is to internalize the words so as to be transformed by them.

    The Gospel of Thomas found in 1945 has been dated to have been a copy written between 130 and 250 AD. It could have been written earlier and but this is the earliest known copy.

    This short video titled, "Jesus did not preach salvation theology -- Gnosis vs Salvation" is a nice quick introduction:



    "The Gospel of Thomas (also known as the Coptic Gospel of Thomas) is a non-canonical sayings gospel. It was discovered near Nag Hammadi, Egypt, in December 1945 among a group of books known as the Nag Hammadi library. Scholars speculate that the works were buried in response to a letter from Bishop Athanasius declaring a strict canon of Christian scripture.[1][2]

    The Coptic-language text, the second of seven contained in what modern-day scholars have designated as Codex II, is composed of 114 sayings attributed to Jesus.[3] Almost half of these sayings resemble those found in the canonical gospels, while it is speculated that the other sayings were added from Gnostic tradition.[4] Its place of origin may have been Syria, where Thomasine traditions were strong.[5]"

    Gospel of Thomas - Wikipedia

    Here's a more detail video with commentary on different sayings:



    And the greatness of the internet allows you to read it all for free in PDF format:

    Gospel of Thomas (PDF)

    What is a belief in God if it is not a belief under all the hatred is love. And underneath the individual is a oneness with everyone else and all of existence. And so one must strongly conclude that what we do to one another we do to ourselves. Here is Jesus saying #70:

    #70 "If you bring forth what is within you, what you have will save you. If you do not have that within you, what you do not have within you will destroy you."

    In other words, we will be destroyed by our own hatreds from within if we do not cultivate a sense of love from within.
     
    #1 dfnj, Nov 8, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  2. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    12,095
    Ratings:
    +1,669
    What I find is that the apostle John completed the Bible by his writings.
    Thus, the Scriptures were completed by the end of the first century. Whereas Thomas comes later.
    I find Matthew 24:13 ( endure to the end ) is about Jesus teaching salvation / deliverance / rescue.
    I also find there is 'salvation/deliverance/rescue ' for the figurative humble 'sheep ' at the soon coming ' time of separation ' to take place on Earth as found at Matthew 25:31-33, 37,40.
    Plus, the ' great crowd of people ' alive on Earth at the time of Revelation 7:14,9 are ' saved/ delivered/ rescued ' alive through the coming great tribulation.
    Those people are ' saved/delivered/ rescued ' to be alive and living on Earth at calendar Day One of Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth when Jesus' millennium-long day will govern over Earth.
    Only the wicked will perish ( be destroyed ) - Psalms 92:7; 37:9-11; Proverbs 2:21-22; Matthew 5:5; 2 Peter 3:9
     
    • Like Like x 2
  3. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson ζει

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2019
    Messages:
    1,589
    Ratings:
    +1,118
    Religion:
    Creedalist Xian
    Proselytizing?

    Screenshot_2019-11-08 About.png
     
  4. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2019
    Messages:
    2,575
    Ratings:
    +550
    Religion:
    Gnostic Christian
    Gnostic Paul taught Christ inside to spiritual nature and Demiurge (Creation of Sophia) to soul natures.
     
  5. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2017
    Messages:
    2,431
    Ratings:
    +1,082
    Religion:
    My Own
    I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion the Gospel of Thomas came later. You can't even say it in a sentence.

    the Gospel of Thomas
    the Gospel of Thomas
    the Gospel of Thomas
    the Gospel of Thomas

    All joking aside. The dating of the scrolls found in 1945 was between 130 and 250 AD. This doesn't mean the date it was written. It could have been a copy of an early written parchment.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  6. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,058
    Ratings:
    +5,431
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    There is absolutely nothing dated to the first century that would indicate that the gospels in any written form existed not much less existed in their complete form. If you fell this the case please present your evidence, and let's begin there.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  7. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    26,132
    Ratings:
    +8,393
    Religion:
    Liberal Christian
    "Paulanity?" "Paulism?" These are not very useful coined terms. Its better to refer to the specific church group such as Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, etc.
     
  8. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2017
    Messages:
    2,431
    Ratings:
    +1,082
    Religion:
    My Own
    You might find this video interesting on the nature of the soul and its relationship to the Demiurge:

     
  9. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2017
    Messages:
    2,431
    Ratings:
    +1,082
    Religion:
    My Own
    These are not terms invented by me:

    Pauline Christianity - Wikipedia
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  10. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2017
    Messages:
    2,431
    Ratings:
    +1,082
    Religion:
    My Own
    Proselytizing! Hell no. I can only show you the door.

    It's kind of funny having a church devoted to a theology claiming you don't need to go to church for finding or achieving your own salvation.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  11. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,058
    Ratings:
    +5,431
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    Hypothetical dating of the Gospel of Thomas before ~120 AD is as weak as trying to date the gospels before ~100 AD. All the writings are likely evolved writings and one cannot be clearly document one older than the other. Many of the sayings of the traditional Gospels and the Gospel of Thomas are older than Jesus.

    The foundation of Christianity still is Judaism, and in Judaism there is the tradition of Salvation in the Torah and Kankh, Though it may be argued that the Salvation taught by Jesus Christ may not be what evolved through Paul and the Roman Church, but the teaching of Salvation exists in the words of Jesus in the Gospels.The concept of salvation in different ways exists in most religions.
     
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    10,193
    Ratings:
    +5,412
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    It has been said that "a great chasm exists between the teachings of the Gnostic gospels and the Bible Gospels. This gap is especially noted when you compare Gnostic and Bible teachings regarding God, the resurrection, and salvation. Yet, a similarity can be seen between Gnosticism and ancient Greek philosophy, Buddhism, and Hinduism.

    From the Bible’s opening chapter to its concluding one, God’s purpose for the earth and its inhabitants is clearly unfolded. The account begins with God’s blessing two people living in a regional paradise and ends with his blessing untold millions living in a global paradise. And the 1,187 chapters in between progressively reveal how God will bless mankind and how we can fit into the divine purpose. The Bible does this without leaving a single gap of vital information that needs to be plugged by other documents."
    The Bible—Do We Have All of It? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

    We believe that the Bible canon was closed well before these "gospels" made their way into the Church. The apocryphal writings find no place in the canon. Their content makes it clear that they do not belong.

    Understanding that God is the author of his word and that each of the writers was inspired by him, it stands to reason that he would be the one to determine what belongs in it, and what does not. If he has preserved his word down through thousands of years despite many attempts to destroy it, then we can be sure that what is accepted as the Bible today contains all that we need to know. Whom he used to establish the canon is irrelevant. It is God's word not men's.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2019
    Messages:
    2,575
    Ratings:
    +550
    Religion:
    Gnostic Christian
    Jesus preached how to connect with spiritual world.
     
  14. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2011
    Messages:
    2,268
    Ratings:
    +1,481
    Religion:
    Baha'i inspired liberal
  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    10,193
    Ratings:
    +5,412
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Those other "documents" are not from God or other prophets, as if we need to add more scripture. The Bible was completed at the end of the first century.

    If you check, God used men to help others learn about scripture.....Jesus and the apostles taught from scripture.....that is what the WT Library does. It helps people to understand scripture....Maybe you should check it out ...you might learn something. :D
     
  16. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2011
    Messages:
    2,268
    Ratings:
    +1,481
    Religion:
    Baha'i inspired liberal
    Lol, i’ve read from it many times. It is a bunch of brainwash
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  17. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2004
    Messages:
    7,477
    Ratings:
    +1,767
    Religion:
    Øneness
    Though John, Paul, and Simon did teach a belief in 'jesus' to be saved mentality, who's name originally meant 'salvation' (Yeshua); the wisdom to understand why this is morally wrong according to the Bible is a teaching tool.

    The Gospel of Thomas has the Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen, yet the penalties that will happen taken out.

    The Bible is a book of Dark Parables, and people see it as a good book, so they miss the wisdom to see the darkness.

    The Bible is like understanding blackberry picking; missing the contexts (thorns), and we go head first into the thorns looking for reward.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  18. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson ζει

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2019
    Messages:
    1,589
    Ratings:
    +1,118
    Religion:
    Creedalist Xian
    I knew Matthew, Mark, and Luke left something out of that parable. Thanks for shedding darkness on the matter. Now I see it clearly and understand perfectly.
     
  19. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    15,741
    Ratings:
    +966
    Religion:
    Christian
    I don't believe the so called writings of Thomas has any validity.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    15,741
    Ratings:
    +966
    Religion:
    Christian
    I do not believe He was that general. He spoke of spirituality in terms of the Kingdom of God and the Paraclete.
     
Loading...