It seems clear to me that the universe is amoral.....

[Revoltingest]

Of course, @Revoltingest is exempted

I get judged too.
So far, I'm mostly not guilty.

 

[stvdv]

I get judged too

You make "not judging" hard <-- 212.579+

So far, I'm mostly not guilty.

Yes, I got that, we are no Saints yet

 

[Revoltingest]

You make "not judging" hard <-- 212.579+



Yes, I got that, we are no Saints yet

Sainthood isn't for me.

 

[Colt]

I don't see why diseases or genetic deformities would be a result of our own freewill, especially when children get these things. The point of this thread is that no matter what we choose in life, to be the best we can be or to give up on ourselves and live in nihilism, there's no guarantee we will be happy; therefore we have no freewill.

If Adam and Eve arrived on a previously populated, fallen world as indicated in the Israelites creation story, and had the pair not defaulted themselves then they could have weaned out defective genetic strains and diseases long ago. The races of the world would be much more homogeneous by now.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

How did you reach this conclusion?

Giving up is not an option, but not giving up doesn't mean things will go your way. I see no other option but to not give up and accept that things may not go to plan. But like RestlessSoul said, you could look for the best in any situation and you'll find it - so at least there is that.

 

[PureX]

I see the universe as being surprisingly benevolent, and even-handed.

It seems to have been designed to allow for the maximum degree and variety of existential expression: in that anything that can exist, gets it's chance. And nothing that comes into being, remains extant forever, so that there is always the room and resources available for more forms of existence to come into being and take their place. And no form is being treated as special in that regard. We all come, and we all go.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Any of this can happen. Assume, now, there is a God and the universe is going exactly they way God planned it. This is His design, everything that happens is exactly as it's meant to be.

What do you think the message is here? What do you interpret the meaning of our chaotic universe to be based on everything we know?

This quote from the Baha'i Writings may give some clarity as to the purpose of life.

"All praise to the unity of God, and all honor to Him, the sovereign Lord, the incomparable and all-glorious Ruler of the universe, Who, out of utter nothingness, hath created the reality of all things, Who, from naught, hath brought into being the most refined and subtle elements of His creation, and Who, rescuing His creatures from the abasement of remoteness and the perils of ultimate extinction, hath received them into His kingdom of incorruptible glory. Nothing short of His all-encompassing grace, His all-pervading mercy, could have possibly achieved it. How could it, otherwise, have been possible for sheer nothingness to have acquired by itself the worthiness and capacity to emerge from its state of non-existence into the realm of being?
Having created the world and all that liveth and moveth therein, He, through the direct operation of His unconstrained and sovereign Will, chose to confer upon man the unique distinction and capacity to know Him and to love Him—a capacity that must needs be regarded as the generating impulse and the primary purpose underlying the whole of creation…. Upon the inmost reality of each and every created thing He hath shed the light of one of His names, and made it a recipient of the glory of one of His attributes. Upon the reality of man, however, He hath focused the radiance of all of His names and attributes, and made it a mirror of His own Self. Alone of all created things man hath been singled out for so great a favor, so enduring a bounty.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 64-69

That capacity must be brought out of our material reality, we need to embrace the Spirit that is our reality.

This purpose embraces all creation and all other creatures on all other planets.

"Verily I say, the creation of God embraceth worlds besides this world, and creatures apart from these creatures. In each of these worlds He hath ordained things which none can search except Himself, the All-Searching, the All-Wise."

Bahá’u’lláh, Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh p. 187-188

Regards Tony

 

[Koldo]

Giving up is not an option, but not giving up doesn't mean things will go your way. I see no other option but to not give up and accept that things may not go to plan. But like RestlessSoul said, you could look for the best in any situation and you'll find it - so at least there is that.

But what does this have to do with God though?
I was asking you how you have reached the conclusion that God was telling you something.

 

[stvdv]

Sainthood isn't for me.

That is indeed another way to phrase it

 

[Koldo]

I see the universe as being surprisingly benevolent, and even-handed.

How did you reach this conclusion?
If we are going to consider the universe a moral agent it is mostly uncaring. I have no idea how that could be framed as benevolent.

It seems to have been designed to allow for the maximum degree and variety of existential expression: in that anything that can exist, gets it's chance.

How did you reach this conclusion?

And nothing that comes into being, remains extant forever, so that there is always the room and resources available for more forms of existence to come into being and take their place. And no form is being treated as special in that regard. We all come, and we all go.

A world with unlimited resources would also solve that problem, and in a fairly more elegant way.

 

[Revoltingest]

That is indeed another way to phrase it

Another....
Not for me sainthood is.

 

[stvdv]

Another....
Not for me sainthood is.

It's What I said
We are not Saints
Only Saints can follow Sainthood

 

[lewisnotmiller]

The universe will get its rent
when it mows me lawns.

Humf...the Universe begrudgingly concedes you have a point.

 

[soulsurvivor]

Children being born with diseases, or disfigurements.

Good people dying, bad people getting far in life.

You could be on your way to beating depression, becoming religious, and trusting God, and then one day before you achieve all your goals, you're out hiking and you're attacked by a bear. Killed.

You could have gone to school, became a great genius, but never getting into a career long enough to make a breakthrough.
....

The Universe is not Amoral. It is super fair and just. Everything that happens to anyone is caused by his past actions (usually in a previous life). And any failures you have in this life will eventually result in success later, probably in the next life.

And death (or being killed) is not the worst thing to happen. You get to spend a time interval of rest and relaxation before being born again with a fresh start.

Not a bad scheme at all.

Here is some info on Karma: Individual Karma and Group Karma

 

[Viker]

I think a lot of folk equivocate amoral with immoral too often. That seems to be a product of our black/white thinking for our own convenience. A bear killing a decent man is not an act of immorality or evil. It's a tragedy. A black hole destroying a distant solar system is not immoral. It's just a part of the whole package. Morality is obviously a human trait we possibly need for the survival of our species. But morality would still be something subjective and human (the adjective).
The universe is beyond human and transcendent. It is amoral. Maybe because it doesn't fit our subjective moral standards it's capable of inducing fear, fear of the unknown and unseen. It has no nefarious intentions. And it has no super benevolent proclivities. We're stardust floating waiting and shining under the sun, here for a second and gone before infinite.

 

[PureX]

How did you reach this conclusion?
If we are going to consider the universe a moral agent it is mostly uncaring. I have no idea how that could be framed as benevolent.

Since it is better to exist than not to exist, a design that provides that opportunity in as many ways and varieties as is possible strikes me as a benevolent design.

A world with unlimited resources would also solve that problem, and in a fairly more elegant way.

I presume that such a world could only exist by 'magic'. Meaning that it's not really possible.

 

[Koldo]

The Universe is not Amoral. It is super fair and just. Everything that happens to anyone is caused by his past actions (usually in a previous life). And any failures you have in this life will eventually result in success later, probably in the next life.

And death (or being killed) is not the worst thing to happen. You get to spend a time interval of rest and relaxation before being born again with a fresh start.

Not a bad scheme at all.

Here is some info on Karma: Individual Karma and Group Karma

Prove it.

 

[Koldo]

Since it is better to exist than not to exist, a design that provides that opportunity in as many ways and varieties as is possible strikes me as a benevolent design.

But what about all the other things?
If I had a child and let it starve to death, would I be benevolent?

I presume that such a world could only exist by 'magic'. Meaning that it's not really possible.

Why not?

 

[Ella S.]

I wouldn't say the universe is amoral, per se. The universe is orderly and it seems to follow its own set of rules without error. If we were personifying the universe, I would say that the laws of nature constrict its behavior in a way that we could call an ethos.

Whether we consider that ethos righteous or not is a bit more subjective, but they are the rules which keep all of existence in tact and we don't know if these rules could have been formulated any better.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Children being born with diseases, or disfigurements.
Good people dying, bad people getting far in life.
You could be on your way to beating depression, becoming religious, and trusting God, and then one day before you achieve all your goals, you're out hiking and you're attacked by a bear. Killed.
You could have gone to school, became a great genius, but never getting into a career long enough to make a breakthrough.
Any of this can happen. Assume, now, there is a God and the universe is going exactly they way God planned it. This is His design, everything that happens is exactly as it's meant to be.
What do you think the message is here? What do you interpret the meaning of our chaotic universe to be based on everything we know?..................................
I feel like what God is telling me is to follow through with my duties, goals, my individual meanings of life even when there's no light at the end of the tunnel. To not fully give up on myself to fall victim of hedonism or nihilism, but to aim for my goals while being happy doing so.
Kind of like optimism, but accepting that things won't necessarily turn out as you expect them to, so therefore instead of hope for the future it's more like acceptance of the future while also trying to mold it. The two are not contradictory.

To me the 'meaning' of our chaotic universe is based on the teachings of everything known by Christ Jesus.
Jesus taught his goal is as found at Luke 4:43, and for us to follow through - Matthew 24:14.
Jesus' goal was to tell others about the 'good news of God's Kingdom' (thy kingdom come....) - Daniel 2:44-45.
Do this because there IS light at the end of the tunnel, which is the BRIGHT light of Jesus' coming Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth for a thousand years in righteousness.
We are all invited to pray the invitation to God of Rev. 22:20 for Jesus to come !
Come and bring 'healing ' to earth's nations - Revelation 22:2.
Healing to the point that No one will say, " I am sick......" - Isaiah 33:24.
Earth and its people will be happy and healthy as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.
Even ' enemy death ' will be No more on Earth - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8.
'No more death' equals: everlasting life on Earth. Eternal life as originally offered to Adam before his downfall.
To Enjoy Life Forever on Earth under beautiful paradisical conditions as the Garden of Eden was a sample.
Enjoy Life forever is the bright 'hope' the Bible holds out for righteous mankind.
Only some to have heavenly life (Rev, 20:6;2:10; 5:9-10) but the majority of mankind to be here on Earth forever.
Or, as Jesus promised that humble meek people will inherit the Earth - Matthew 5:5; Psalms 37:9-11.