• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

It seems clear to me that the universe is amoral.....

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Children being born with diseases, or disfigurements.

Good people dying, bad people getting far in life.

You could be on your way to beating depression, becoming religious, and trusting God, and then one day before you achieve all your goals, you're out hiking and you're attacked by a bear. Killed.

You could have gone to school, became a great genius, but never getting into a career long enough to make a breakthrough.


Any of this can happen. Assume, now, there is a God and the universe is going exactly they way God planned it. This is His design, everything that happens is exactly as it's meant to be.

What do you think the message is here? What do you interpret the meaning of our chaotic universe to be based on everything we know?

If you were to ask me, I sometimes feel like life is much like Albert Camus's view on Sisyphus. From this wikipedia article:

Camus is interested in Sisyphus's thoughts when marching down the mountain, to start anew. After the stone falls back down the mountain Camus states that "It is during that return, that pause, that Sisyphus interests me. A face that toils so close to stones is already stone itself! I see that man going back down with a heavy yet measured step toward the torment of which he will never know the end." This is the truly tragic moment when the hero becomes conscious of his wretched condition. He does not have hope, but "there is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn." Acknowledging the truth will conquer it; Sisyphus, just like the absurd man, continues pushing. Camus claims that when Sisyphus acknowledges the futility of his task and the certainty of his fate, he is freed to realize the absurdity of his situation and to reach a state of contented acceptance. With a nod to the similarly cursed Greek hero Oedipus, Camus concludes that "all is well," indeed, that "one must imagine Sisyphus happy."

I feel like what God is telling me is to follow through with my duties, goals, my individual meanings of life even when there's no light at the end of the tunnel. To not fully give up on myself to fall victim of hedonism or nihilism, but to aim for my goals while being happy doing so.

Kind of like optimism, but accepting that things won't necessarily turn out as you expect them to, so therefore instead of hope for the future it's more like acceptance of the future while also trying to mold it. The two are not contradictory.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
This might be interesting to you even if just academically. What is Optimistic Nihilism? - Louis Laves-Webb

I don't believe in an amoral universe because I believe living beings create morality, moral theory, moral precepts, and enact social ethics based on them.
So, to me, morality exists in this universe. I just don't believe morality is handed down by god(s). Nor would I accept arguments from authority as substitution for personal moral judgement even if I believed in god(s).

I'm a 'create your own purpose' kind of gal.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Yes, amoral, what you call amoral is simply the nature of our physical existence as it is, nothing less and nothing more. Morality is a very human set of behavior standards that are part of the universal basis of society.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Consciousness human is exact. Human biology dominion of everything says our mind.

So you do a review named... why.

As humans equal in life tell stories first. Natural position everyone.

Notice in that position no science machine of any type exists. You don't own calculus maths.

Just humans. Exact natural mutual equal position

Like every human knows. We then ask why now don't I own that holy position.

So you say thinker. Do you realise Rock's volcanic gas left earths mass ejected into empty space?

That just around earth the thin plane that is space filled back in.

So in your mind the universal divide was overcome by our heavens.

Yet none of the mass is in our heavens.

Your human mind aware reality.

Says a human owns the whole universe exactly where they are.

And it is a pertinent human egotists teaching.

Don't lie to yourself in self awareness. It's dangerous.

What humans who are mind grounded teach you. I practiced grounding myself in meditations so I wouldn't lie to my being human only.

By thinking causes.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
This might be interesting to you even if just academically. What is Optimistic Nihilism? - Louis Laves-Webb

I don't believe in an amoral universe because I believe living beings create morality, moral theory, moral precepts, and enact social ethics based on them.
So, to me, morality exists in this universe. I just don't believe morality is handed down by god(s). Nor would I accept arguments from authority as substitution for personal moral judgement even if I believed in god(s).

I'm a 'create your own purpose' kind of gal.

Never labelled it before, but this broadly fits my approach to life. People always find it amusing when I describe myself as an optimist, since I'm pretty low-key, but I definitely am.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Children being born with diseases, or disfigurements.

Good people dying, bad people getting far in life.

It seems clear to me that the universe is amoral.....

What do you think the message is here? What do you interpret the meaning of our chaotic universe to be based on everything we know?
The Universe lacks "judgment"
(as in "good" vs "bad")

Neither "moral" nor "amoral"

Hence the advice "Thou shall not judge"

@stvdvRF
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Children being born with diseases, or disfigurements.

Good people dying, bad people getting far in life.

You could be on your way to beating depression, becoming religious, and trusting God, and then one day before you achieve all your goals, you're out hiking and you're attacked by a bear. Killed.

You could have gone to school, became a great genius, but never getting into a career long enough to make a breakthrough.


Any of this can happen. Assume, now, there is a God and the universe is going exactly they way God planned it. This is His design, everything that happens is exactly as it's meant to be.

What do you think the message is here? What do you interpret the meaning of our chaotic universe to be based on everything we know?

If you were to ask me, I sometimes feel like life is much like Albert Camus's view on Sisyphus. From this wikipedia article:

Camus is interested in Sisyphus's thoughts when marching down the mountain, to start anew. After the stone falls back down the mountain Camus states that "It is during that return, that pause, that Sisyphus interests me. A face that toils so close to stones is already stone itself! I see that man going back down with a heavy yet measured step toward the torment of which he will never know the end." This is the truly tragic moment when the hero becomes conscious of his wretched condition. He does not have hope, but "there is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn." Acknowledging the truth will conquer it; Sisyphus, just like the absurd man, continues pushing. Camus claims that when Sisyphus acknowledges the futility of his task and the certainty of his fate, he is freed to realize the absurdity of his situation and to reach a state of contented acceptance. With a nod to the similarly cursed Greek hero Oedipus, Camus concludes that "all is well," indeed, that "one must imagine Sisyphus happy."

I feel like what God is telling me is to follow through with my duties, goals, my individual meanings of life even when there's no light at the end of the tunnel. To not fully give up on myself to fall victim of hedonism or nihilism, but to aim for my goals while being happy doing so.

Kind of like optimism, but accepting that things won't necessarily turn out as you expect them to, so therefore instead of hope for the future it's more like acceptance of the future while also trying to mold it. The two are not contradictory.
As a Hindu, I believe in rebirth. The universe works through a mixture of chaos and order, and both affects our lives. But the stochastic aspect averages out (good runs with bad runs) over multiple lifetimes and the signal from our actions and decisions (i.e. karma) shapes the long term trajectory and growth of our character. A theist Hindu would claim that is how God balances the need for creativism and autonomy (that requires novelty that comes from chaos) with the need for fairness, justice etc. (that comes from order).
 

Hermit Philosopher

Selflessly here for you
Dear the Sum of Awe,

I’d say that Man, where he is allowed to practise the free will that he is bestowed with, has a tendency to grows up under the illusion that he has control, not only over himself, but over outcomes.

Yet, to have control over outcomes, Man would have to have control over circumstances, nature and most importantly; over his fellow beings. Man does not - thank goodness - have this.

For, to have free will is to have control over one’s actions and that is different to having control over their outcome.

As Man grown up, his illusion of control is often shattered by life. That, I’d say, is a good thing, for he who does not have his illusion of control shattered, becomes a danger to himself and to the world.

That said; all shattered illusions lead to a phase of despair and crisis, as what Man thought he knew, dissolves and he once again must find a different perspective from which to approach himself and life in general.

On the subject of God’s role, however:
Assume, now, there is a God and the universe is going exactly they way God planned it.

To this, I’d ask: are all outcomes of all sorts of creation always planned, or is it possible to create something that “takes a life of its own” and which’s outcome is not quite planned at all? If so, is that a “mistake”? What if the purpose of the “creation” itself is to understand where it leads…?

What if we instead thought of God’s creation as that of an “algorithm” or, as an “equation”, which’s outcome is the answer to what is in question? Then, to stop the unfolding of events caused, would be to stop oneself from acquiring an answer.


Humbly
Hermit
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
The value of human existence is acknowledging that it is not perfect.
And happiness resides in being content with the outcomes, of course doing anything to reduce the risk of being disappointed/unhappy.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Children being born with diseases, or disfigurements.

Good people dying, bad people getting far in life.

You could be on your way to beating depression, becoming religious, and trusting God, and then one day before you achieve all your goals, you're out hiking and you're attacked by a bear. Killed.

You could have gone to school, became a great genius, but never getting into a career long enough to make a breakthrough.


Any of this can happen. Assume, now, there is a God and the universe is going exactly they way God planned it. This is His design, everything that happens is exactly as it's meant to be.

What do you think the message is here? What do you interpret the meaning of our chaotic universe to be based on everything we know?

If you were to ask me, I sometimes feel like life is much like Albert Camus's view on Sisyphus. From this wikipedia article:

Camus is interested in Sisyphus's thoughts when marching down the mountain, to start anew. After the stone falls back down the mountain Camus states that "It is during that return, that pause, that Sisyphus interests me. A face that toils so close to stones is already stone itself! I see that man going back down with a heavy yet measured step toward the torment of which he will never know the end." This is the truly tragic moment when the hero becomes conscious of his wretched condition. He does not have hope, but "there is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn." Acknowledging the truth will conquer it; Sisyphus, just like the absurd man, continues pushing. Camus claims that when Sisyphus acknowledges the futility of his task and the certainty of his fate, he is freed to realize the absurdity of his situation and to reach a state of contented acceptance. With a nod to the similarly cursed Greek hero Oedipus, Camus concludes that "all is well," indeed, that "one must imagine Sisyphus happy."

I feel like what God is telling me is to follow through with my duties, goals, my individual meanings of life even when there's no light at the end of the tunnel. To not fully give up on myself to fall victim of hedonism or nihilism, but to aim for my goals while being happy doing so.

Kind of like optimism, but accepting that things won't necessarily turn out as you expect them to, so therefore instead of hope for the future it's more like acceptance of the future while also trying to mold it. The two are not contradictory.
Wise words and also universal. You can leave out god from this and it still makes sense (I think it makes even more sense but I'm not dogmatic on that one).
Seeing the world as it is, is not pessimism, it's realism.
Going on in a world without purpose is not optimism, it is pragmatism.
Whoever realises this, is on the way to enlightenment, believer or atheist.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
It seems clear to me that the universe is amoral.....


The Universe lacks "judgment"
(as in "good" vs "bad")

Neither "moral" nor "amoral"

Hence the advice "Thou shall not judge"

@stvdvRF
I was under the impression that amoral meant the lack of moral. I suspect we are in agreement?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
The Universe lacks "judgment"
(as in "good" vs "bad")

Neither "moral" nor "amoral"

Hence the advice "Thou shall not judge"

@stvdvRF
I'm not the universe, so I get to judge.
Of course, I'll use my personal standards.
So behave yourself.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Wise words and also universal. You can leave out god from this and it still makes sense (I think it makes even more sense but I'm not dogmatic on that one).
Seeing the world as it is, is not pessimism, it's realism.
Going on in a world without purpose is not optimism, it is pragmatism.
Whoever realises this, is on the way to enlightenment, believer or atheist.
You're right, it's a healthy philosophy to live by. But, for me, I feel there is a purpose of some sort. Not only does existence exist when the "path of least resistance" logically would've been for it to not exist (apparently that logic is wrong, as it does exist and that therefore must be the path of least resistance), but it seems poetic.

To call existence poetic may seem to contradict my original post which claimed the world seemed chaotic. But there is order, we call it natural order. The reason why I say it's poetic is because from nonliving organisms comes life, and from life comes meaning for continued existence, and from meaning comes intelligent life, and from intelligent life comes intricate language and exploration of the universe and the desire to understand more about the world around us. It appears to me that, through life, the universe is trying to understand itself. But again, this is just my opinion why it seems there is a God (or that the universe itself is God)
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Children being born with diseases, or disfigurements.

Good people dying, bad people getting far in life.

You could be on your way to beating depression, becoming religious, and trusting God, and then one day before you achieve all your goals, you're out hiking and you're attacked by a bear. Killed.

You could have gone to school, became a great genius, but never getting into a career long enough to make a breakthrough.


Any of this can happen. Assume, now, there is a God and the universe is going exactly they way God planned it. This is His design, everything that happens is exactly as it's meant to be.

What do you think the message is here? What do you interpret the meaning of our chaotic universe to be based on everything we know?

If you were to ask me, I sometimes feel like life is much like Albert Camus's view on Sisyphus. From this wikipedia article:

Camus is interested in Sisyphus's thoughts when marching down the mountain, to start anew. After the stone falls back down the mountain Camus states that "It is during that return, that pause, that Sisyphus interests me. A face that toils so close to stones is already stone itself! I see that man going back down with a heavy yet measured step toward the torment of which he will never know the end." This is the truly tragic moment when the hero becomes conscious of his wretched condition. He does not have hope, but "there is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn." Acknowledging the truth will conquer it; Sisyphus, just like the absurd man, continues pushing. Camus claims that when Sisyphus acknowledges the futility of his task and the certainty of his fate, he is freed to realize the absurdity of his situation and to reach a state of contented acceptance. With a nod to the similarly cursed Greek hero Oedipus, Camus concludes that "all is well," indeed, that "one must imagine Sisyphus happy."

I feel like what God is telling me is to follow through with my duties, goals, my individual meanings of life even when there's no light at the end of the tunnel. To not fully give up on myself to fall victim of hedonism or nihilism, but to aim for my goals while being happy doing so.

Kind of like optimism, but accepting that things won't necessarily turn out as you expect them to, so therefore instead of hope for the future it's more like acceptance of the future while also trying to mold it. The two are not contradictory.



There's always light at the end of the tunnel. You may not see it, but it's there, waiting to shine on you.

"Hold your face up to the light even though, for the moment, you do not see."
- Bill W.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
There's always light at the end of the tunnel. You may not see it, but it's there, waiting to shine on you.

"Hold your face up to the light even though, for the moment, you do not see."
- Bill W.
While I think Pessimism is a guaranteed self-fulfilling prophecy, I don't believe Optimism guarantees good things to come.
 
Top