It is Logical

[A Vestigial Mote]

The source also offered that Material senses are an unreliable source to use to search for truth and only sound reasoning used with logic can find the answers. This reasoning is outside the senses.

Just about every theist intent on convincing anyone else of their wild claims will eventually land here, with a claim like this. That "material senses" are unreliable for discovering "truth." I admit they aren't perfect, and probably can't be, but every single item of knowledge that you have likely has its "ancestral" roots in an item of data you gained via your material senses. Please enlighten me if you think you've found an exception. As an example of even an abstract that can be boiled down to material interaction and sensory input: let's take "love". Sure, "love" at its most abstract has only tangential relation to material senses, but let's take you back to being a baby, freshly born. In what ways would you have experience "love?" Your mother's touch, perhaps? Providence of your needs? As you would grow and could understand more, you would experience that some people are cold, unforgiving and uninviting. These ideas about them would come from their visible aspect, body language, or audible aspect through tones of voice. The absence of their touching you would also be an indicator, again a material sense allowing you to understand that it is lacking. And then others would show you different attentions - hugs, kisses, pats on the back, long looks into your eyes, or they would make food for you, make sure you have shelter, sacrifice things for you. All material-world interaction! And all of that is exactly how you would discover or experience "love." That's how you would come to understand that abstract idea.

And to prove this - I want you to think of what a human brain in a vat, with no sensory input whatsoever could ever discern about "love." Can you think of anything? I certainly cannot.

You give the "material world" far too little credit, you theists. It displays a grand and sweeping lack of understanding, and leads you to come to all sorts of conclusions that simply are not representative of anything that actually occurs in reality. It is quite unfortunate.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

“God is the first truth and the last fact; therefore does all truth take origin in him, while all facts exist relative to him.” UB 1955

Thanks for the reply, good to see you, not sure if we have had a chat before.

I personally see It is our understanding of God that forms the foundation of our e
reasoning and logic.

Without God man uses other means based in a world of material senses to form their reasoning and logic, sometimes in the scientific method, sometimes based purely in a worldly self.

With God man uses the spiritual realities to form their reasoning and logic, again sometimes based in God's purpose, but a lot of the time, it is mixed with a worldly self.

Both require education and understanding, one needs material education, the other needs submission unto God.

Nature and nurture a strong influence on our reasoning and logic.

Such is the quandary of this matrix, the purpose of our being.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Maybe you can consider watching this.

Surviving death Netflix season 1 episode 1.

Regards Tony

I admit they aren't perfect, and probably can't be, but every single item of knowledge that you have likely has its "ancestral" roots in an item of data you gained via your material senses. Please enlighten me if you think you've found an exception.

First and foremost I am not here to convince you or anyone. I just put forth ideas from the source of my reasoning and logic.

My source of reasoning and logic is from a Man that said he was a Messenger of God, to which, after my investigation of that claim, indicated to me that He spoke the Truth.

I have offered two links to consider so far in this OP as to how inspiration is external from the body.

One was how some great inventions came from dreams or visions, the other is quoted above, which is NDE experiences.

Both these topics require us to use reason and Logic to sort out what may be real and what may be vain imaginings.

What this OP has shown me is very eye opening. It has shown me no matter how plausible spiritual reasoning and logic is, that anyone who does not want use it, they will choose to see it is not plausible reasoning and logic.

There is now, because of medial science, many many people surviving death and many were die hard scientists with atheist beliefs. I recommend Surviving death Netflix season 1 episode 1, it shows the swing in science on this subject.

Regards Tony

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

First and foremost I am not here to convince you or anyone.

Well this is a relief. Thanks for the attempts at information share then, but I am doing just fine.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well this is a relief. Thanks for the attempts at information share then, but I am doing just fine.

That's great, I wish you well and happy in life and love.

If at sometime you have more questions or comments you wish to make, then we may have reason for another chat.

Regards Tony

 

[rational experiences]

The theorist quotes where did God come from.

As all humans know first.

Self human exists.
Self is not history God explanations.

O one stone planet.
O one stone planet that released gas spirits into space. A womb theme.

God O mother of God.

No human is that history or story.

We live inside the spirit protection God history. A human taught story.

No man is God
No man is the heavens. God owns that story.

We are all humans depending on heavenly safety.

Holy water generation ox.....generation oxygen spirits within us.

We are not God sciences.

Science never existed.

Artificial human manipulation of God products caused spatial conditions to change

Life attacked changed
Stories are then taught

No man is God relativity.

Life conscious human advice.

I depend on God. Science taught me that relevance.

I get changed if a God product is changed.

No state in creation is new.

States are changed by spatial changed.

If I remove mass presence I introduce new spaces. I was attacked for claiming mother...of God spatial reasoning.

I told my own man son baby self. My father changed God. God sacrificed my life.

Reasoning.

O ovary. All babies man or woman born from.

Ovary is a woman's cell.

My father man a non sexual baby conception relativity taught I was wrong by thesis

Father was not from sexual ovary.

Why I unnaturally bled.

Ebola modern day sacrifice that proof also.

 

[rational experiences]

God theist is not a God theist.

Humans conscious first.

We argue against a man brother choice to remove God presence.

We argue because his conscious thesis discluded God from owning presence.

Spiritual aware we own a huge human experienced answer about holiness of God for relative life self continuance.

We infer human history.
To reason experience.

Experience is quoted to be the highest rationale as compared to theist..designer machine no reaction. Who reacted machine and changed earth God nature.

The story.

Healthy highest life our origins.

Science attacked it. Sacrificed it. Life was saved but lived a saved sacrificed life.

Flooding our evidence.

A heated gas illumination cause burning. Increases evaporation rate. Flooding the evidence.

Relative to O God planet scientific relativity.

If you consciously quote nothing. You know the word meaning. The thinking self first proves by word use their intent. As everyone is conscious first of one word meaning.

The teaching. Human only.

God exists our argument in science. O stone one the planet.

The thesis quoted when God never existed the intent.

We argue for human life continuance about God existing. It is a science argument.

Philosopher. Must own pure mind and heart to tell any truth. No one else were allowed to argue.

You cannot claim God O does not exist when it exists O planet before thesis.

The thesis about God never existed.
Science never existed by thesis God.

Science is wrong.
Natural human says God does exist. Our planet.

Science thinking about the planet never once existed expressed.

You are wrong in science yourselves.

 

[MikeF]

Happy Gregorian New Year and good afternoon MikeF.

My new year is March 21st.

I'll try and remember that a wish you Happy New Year then.

You are 100% correct, the intelligence does not need us, it is entirely 100% for our benefit, this advice has been given.

The entity does not need humanity, but is it also indifferent to humanity? Does it get actively involved in individual lives, or not actually interact with human beings in any personal way. In essence, was the whole process started and it is running its course without any management from the entity?

What we are given is a chance to find our potential.

This idea is in keeping with a non-theistic world view as well. I would phrase it a little different, as for me, it is less about finding and more about fulfilling or fully utilizing. Additionally, it is not an obligation, but an option, which ties in to choice as you mentioned.

Human life on this planet is very ancient, well before any records we have yet discovered.

Curious as to what qualifies as a record? Just written or archaeological as well? How far back to you estimate human life has existed on earth?

It is only for our benefit Mike, yes there is no gender for the source of intelligence.

So if there is no gender, then is the use of gender a reflection of the gender bias or male chauvinism of the messengers? If so, it seems like the messengers are putting their thumb on the scale, so to speak. It makes me wonder what else in the message has be colored.

All we can know of that source is via the method that intelligence has chosen to speak with us and that to date has been Messengers. This all that we can know is given by that Message.

And this is what really bothers me. How is one to verify the accuracy of the message? Why would an intelligent entity communicate in such an unreliable way? And since there are different messengers with differing messages, there is obviously something amiss. I would be curious as to how you decide who is a true messenger and what is a true message.

There is just some things above our pay grade Mike.

This is also based in logic. Think about us as a species and our ability to bring things from the unknown to the known.

No matter how hard we try, we can not create life, the formula is not ours to know.

Can the craft know the craftsman, can the painting know the painter?

Logically we have to realise we are not all knowing.

I am fully on board with humanity not being all knowing. I am also on board with appreciating our species ability to bring things from the unknown to the known.

As to a craft or painting knowing the craftsman or painter, I think the analogy may not fit in this case. We human beings are not inanimate objects. We are sentient beings, and as such, have the capacity to know things, including how we came to be.

As to what our species can or cannot accomplish in the future, I don't think we can really say.

I'd say we are in agreement that we human beings know things about the world, have the capacity to continue to discover new things that are not currently know, and that we as individuals and a species have a potential that is not always fully realized.

I'm still not on board with the messengers though, nor the logic behind why an intelligent creator entity would employ such a method to disseminate information to mankind.

 

[rational experiences]

We are all humans.

One human looks at the other human.

For what reason do you give your self permission to do a running commentary on my life?

You know brother life's reality without group lying coercive history.

One human self asking another human self.

How one self in a group hurt one other human self.

Via a lying ability to coerce and lie.

Truth is basic.

You either claim equality hence science does not exist or you lie in status.

Common sense is basic.

No machines any condition you claim removed.
No science its reality for design.

And only natural exists.

The lying self shown for his inability to use truth. Hence endangers us all.

Basic.

Baby. Ovary plus sperm. Does not go back to. Father. It is sperm.

Sperm not a baby everyone today Born a baby.
Ovary not a baby either.

You own a brain hence should use it.

Any wonder that life's victims tire of your egotism?

Just stop lying if that is possible brother.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So if there is no gender, then is the use of gender a reflection of the gender bias or male chauvinism of the messengers? If so, it seems like the messengers are putting their thumb on the scale, so to speak. It makes me wonder what else in the message has be colored.

The message, I see does give all colours and then tells us what is important to focus on in the age we live. In this age working on gender equality is part of what we have been given to achieve. It will be no easy path.

I personally see it is part of an evolution. An evolution of a species which is still in its early days. Humanity has still a lot to learn, especially about gender eqality. When we find true equality of gender, I also think it will become more clear as to why the male felt like they had to dominate the female, I have always found that attitude disturbing.

This topic is one of many that has become very unclear, as man has moved away from the guidance given. I see that Reason and Logic on this topic needs a focus, that being focus being God's Laws.

The entity does not need humanity, but is it also indifferent to humanity? Does it get actively involved in individual lives, or not actually interact with human beings in any personal way. In essence, was the whole process started and it is running its course without any management from the entity?

I see God is involved and knows all our choices, knowing of our choices is how God's plan always unfolds. We are bound in time, God is not and knows our beginning and knows our end. As such I see creation already includes our choices.

We at all times have the choices, they are never taken away, but God knows what choices we will make.

Free Will is complicated, mainly because we are so unaware of our spiritual reality. We are embryos in a matrix yet to be born, our choices are our development inside the matrix.

It is up to us how we connect to our creator, how personal we make it, God only wants our hearts and gives us the choice of what we want to be. When we know of that possibility, I see the journey gets more difficult, as it involves constant self reflection in becoming a better person and that requires submission.

This idea is in keeping with a non-theistic world view as well. I would phrase it a little different, as for me, it is less about finding and more about fulfilling or fully utilizing. Additionally, it is not an obligation, but an option, which ties in to choice as you mentioned.

Yes choices, the quandary of life. The key I see is recognition of why those choices are important and that to me is founded in oneness.

Curious as to what qualifies as a record? Just written or archaeological as well? How far back to you estimate human life has existed on earth?

To not give any false ideas, I chose this link which gives ideas on that question.

https://www.bahaiblog.net/2016/08/perspectives-on-evolution/#identifier_4_22887

Sorry running out of time, work is calling.

And this is what really bothers me. How is one to verify the accuracy of the message? Why would an intelligent entity communicate in such an unreliable way? And since there are different messengers with differing messages, there is obviously something amiss. I would be curious as to how you decide who is a true messenger and what is a true message.

It appears God chose this method as it best achieves the purpose for why we have been created.

As to a true or false Messenger, that is what Faith is all about, that is a Journey we can choose to take. If one comes from a Christain background the scripture contain all we need on that journey.

It is a great question, I ran out of time to give it the attention deserved.

I am fully on board with humanity not being all knowing. I am also on board with appreciating our species ability to bring things from the unknown to the known.

As to a craft or painting knowing the craftsman or painter, I think the analogy may not fit in this case. We human beings are not inanimate objects. We are sentient beings, and as such, have the capacity to know things, including how we came to be.

As to what our species can or cannot accomplish in the future, I don't think we can really say.

I'd say we are in agreement that we human beings know things about the world, have the capacity to continue to discover new things that are not currently know, and that we as individuals and a species have a potential that is not always fully realized.

I'm still not on board with the messengers though, nor the logic behind why an intelligent creator entity would employ such a method to disseminate information to mankind.

The journey will always be better when we decide to find our full potential as a united humanity.

I see that is why the Mesengers have come, to show us how to becone a united humanity.

Thank you for the response. It contains many questions that can be answered in many ways. Time has run out this morning.

Regards Tony

 

[rational experiences]

The atmospheric gases said to be owner of the coat of many colours.

To allow the baby man life continuance

Seeing his father man invented nuclear science burnt out gases in UFO condition.

God releasing fusion under our feet. From core heart radiation mass.

Opens into sink holes. Removal of the origin sin. Body O was burning once releasing hot gases.

Was not sun sin.

The false story sun worshippers.

Father our father is the lived life. Living life recorded voice memory scientist inventor creator cause life sacrifice.

He is the unconditional memory as our parents as spirits came out eternal converted into humans.

Reason support where did the ape father come from?

Recorded his human life. Died became a living human father memory.

Who we hear. Who we reference about info of stone philosophy sciences.

Stone never talked. Father is not God. No man is God the teaching.

 

[MikeF]

The message, I see does give all colours and then tells us what is important to focus on in the age we live. In this age working on gender equality is part of what we have been given to achieve. It will be no easy path.

I personally see it is part of an evolution. An evolution of a species which is still in its early days. Humanity has still a lot to learn, especially about gender eqality. When we find true equality of gender, I also think it will become more clear as to why the male felt like they had to dominate the female, I have always found that attitude disturbing.

This topic is one of many that has become very unclear, as man has moved away from the guidance given. I see that Reason and Logic on this topic needs a focus, that being focus being God's Laws.



I see God is involved and knows all our choices, knowing of our choices is how God's plan always unfolds. We are bound in time, God is not and knows our beginning and knows our end. As such I see creation already includes our choices.

We at all times have the choices, they are never taken away, but God knows what choices we will make.

Free Will is complicated, mainly because we are so unaware of our spiritual reality. We are embryos in a matrix yet to be born, our choices are our development inside the matrix.

It is up to us how we connect to our creator, how personal we make it, God only wants our hearts and gives us the choice of what we want to be. When we know of that possibility, I see the journey gets more difficult, as it involves constant self reflection in becoming a better person and that requires submission.



Yes choices, the quandary of life. The key I see is recognition of why those choices are important and that to me is founded in oneness.



To not give any false ideas, I chose this link which gives ideas on that question.

https://www.bahaiblog.net/2016/08/perspectives-on-evolution/#identifier_4_22887

Sorry running out of time, work is calling.



It appears God chose this method as it best achieves the purpose for why we have been created.

As to a true or false Messenger, that is what Faith is all about, that is a Journey we can choose to take. If one comes from a Christain background the scripture contain all we need on that journey.

It is a great question, I ran out of time to give it the attention deserved.



The journey will always be better when we decide to find our full potential as a united humanity.

I see that is why the Mesengers have come, to show us how to becone a united humanity.

Thank you for the response. It contains many questions that can be answered in many ways. Time has run out this morning.

Regards Tony

Thanks Tony. Enjoyed the conversation.