Israel and Palestine | The Solutions Thread

[kai]

I agree it's not a perfect analogy (though to call the Green/Orange battles secular seems iffy to me). However, it may provide some useful tactics in dealing with Hamas. Nothing Israel has tried so far has worked.

The Palestinian people need to be given a good reason (not a bullying reason) to discard Hamas.

wa:do

Its the goals of the IRA which were secular, Orange and green sectarianism was and is political as well as a religious devide. Nothing the IRA tried worked until they rejected violence and put down thier weapons. The analogy can lead to simplistic rational though , the middle east peace process is far far more complicated The religious beliefs of IRA members did not block the way to a political compromise.


Discarding Hamas if thats possible ,will not change their ideology or goals, they have been operating since 1987and no doubt will still operate if they were voted out.

 

[painted wolf]

Discarding Hamas will cut them off from their popular support. The Palestinian people need to want Hamas to go away. Unless the Palestinian people want to stop them, then nothing outside forces do will stop them.

wa:do

 

[kai]

Discarding Hamas will cut them off from their popular support. The Palestinian people need to want Hamas to go away. Unless the Palestinian people want to stop them, then nothing outside forces do will stop them.

wa:do

I totally agree, Hamas is an obsticle to Peace ,a lasting Peace,unfortunately "dicarding" such an entity as Hamas now its in power, would be difficult indeed.

 

[painted wolf]

The only options are to reform them or to make them irrelevant in the eyes of the Palestinian people.

My opinion is that the Palestinian people need to be given true economic and political hope. Strong arm tactics only entrench Hamas further and give them fuel to keep the fires going.

wa:do

 

[Poisonshady313]

The only options are to reform them or to make them irrelevant in the eyes of the Palestinian people.

My opinion is that the Palestinian people need to be given true economic and political hope. Strong arm tactics only entrench Hamas further and give them fuel to keep the fires going.

wa:do

When the Palestinian people are both abused and lied to by Hamas, they'll never just realize that Hamas is bad for them... because Hamas deprives its people of humanitarian aid, and blames it on Israel... which means the Palestinian people will always be in bad shape, it will always be Hamas' fault, and they will always blame it on Israel. Their only solution is to terrorize Israel into bending over backward to feed Palestinians while releasing thousands of known terrorists and having their own soldiers kidnapped during a time of relative peace and to justify thousands of rockets being fired at civilians as "resistance', while generations of Israelis grow up in constant fear.

Israel can't put the needs of other people ahead of its own. I won't kill myself to feed someone else who hates me.

While Hamas is bad for the Palestinians, the Palestinians need to know it. Believe it or not, the strong arm tactics work. After Operation Cast Lead, I've heard several news stories of Palestinians complaining that it is because of Hamas that so many Gazans died. That's the truth, and that's the first time I've heard it come from a Palestinian.

The colonies that became America didn't do so because of economic hope. They revolted against the british crown because it was so intolerable living under the rule of King George.

Palestinians need to revolt against their King George (Hamas). If it weren't for Hamas, there would be no blockade around Gaza. If it weren't for Hamas, 1000 Gazans wouldn't have died last month. If it weren't for Hamas, there would probably already be an independent state of Palestine by now. I bet Israel would be helping to build roads, hospitals, commerical ports, etc... to jumpstart a peaceful palestinian state.

But that can't and should not happen UNTIL there is no longer a desire to annihilate and obliterate Israel.

Israel is a state. Palestine is not... never has been. If there could ever hope to be a two state solution, the people need to recognize Israel, and accept that if Palestine ever becomes a state, Israel will be its neighbor, and that they can have a perfectly peaceful coexistence.

 

[painted wolf]

Israel can't put the needs of other people ahead of its own. I won't kill myself to feed someone else who hates me.

Then they will continue to hate you as they starve. You will be well fed but, at what price?

While Hamas is bad for the Palestinians, the Palestinians need to know it. Believe it or not, the strong arm tactics work. After Operation Cast Lead, I've heard several news stories of Palestinians complaining that it is because of Hamas that so many Gazans died. That's the truth, and that's the first time I've heard it come from a Palestinian.

How well do think those few will stand against Hamas? Not to mention the fact that news in these times are full of shades of truth. Everyone clinging to their chosen news sources as absolute truth.

The colonies that became America didn't do so because of economic hope. They revolted against the british crown because it was so intolerable living under the rule of King George.

"No taxation without representation." It was absolutely economic. The colonies wanted an economic future.

But that can't and should not happen UNTIL there is no longer a desire to annihilate and obliterate Israel.

And you think peace will ever come at the end of a gun? That people living in squalor of endless fighting will simply change their minds and love the enemy?
Has that ever worked before?

wa:do

 

[challupa]

Then they will continue to hate you as they starve. You will be well fed but, at what price?
It's possibly being called "dead right". I don't think it's worth it but then I don't live in Israel

And you think peace will ever come at the end of a gun? That people living in squalor of endless fighting will simply change their minds and love the enemy?
Has that ever worked before?

wa:do

Well we still don't have peace, so I would say that it has not worked before.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Then they will continue to hate you as they starve. You will be well fed but, at what price?

I'm not talking about feeding Israelis... I'm talking about feeding Gazans at the cost of dead Israelis from suicide bombers and kassam rockets.

How well do think those few will stand against Hamas?

They increase in number with others who suffered terribly at the hands of Hamas. It doesn't only have to be a few. After all, a tiny Israel stood against 7 aggressive and hostile Arab nations... It's not impossible for the little guy to stand against the big guy. If they spent the same energy trying to overthrow Hamas as they spend on terrorizing Israel, it wouldn't be a hard task at all.

"No taxation without representation." It was absolutely economic. The colonies wanted an economic future.

They weren't given any hope... the crippling taxes are like the blockade. When their economic sitiuation became intolerable, they revolted.

Don't think for a minute that the American revolution happened peacefully and without the death of innocent people.

And you think peace will ever come at the end of a gun?

Yes. When you crush the enemy's desire to fight, they'll stop. The fight that doesn't happen is the one that's not worth having.

That people living in squalor of endless fighting will simply change their minds and love the enemy?
Has that ever worked before?

Didn't the A-bomb on Hiroshima end world war II? One has to realize that it's not worth it to keep up the terrorism, because they suffer themselves. The fact that they embrace martyrdom makes it harder to push them over the edge, but eventually they'll reach a point where they realize they're killing themselves for nothing, and that their children are dying because of Hamas.

When Palestinians love their children more than they hate Israel, there can be peace.

I think you (or someone on this forum) previously objected to the notion that they hate their children. The fact that they're proud to give birth to martyrs supports my position. Their children are cannon fodder and improvised explosion devices.

When they feel pain at the death of their child, instead of celebrating martyrdom, they'll know that it is better to desire peace instead of destruction.

 

[painted wolf]

I'm not talking about feeding Israelis... I'm talking about feeding Gazans at the cost of dead Israelis from suicide bombers and kassam rockets.

I know. And they (the average people) will hate you as they starve.

They increase in number with others who suffered terribly at the hands of Hamas. It doesn't only have to be a few. After all, a tiny Israel stood against 7 aggressive and hostile Arab nations... It's not impossible for the little guy to stand against the big guy. If they spent the same energy trying to overthrow Hamas as they spend on terrorizing Israel, it wouldn't be a hard task at all.

Israel had the best military technology that money and connections with the USA could buy. That made all the difference.
The average Palestinian doesn't have such an advantage over Hamas. Quite the opposite.

They weren't given any hope... the crippling taxes are like the blockade. When their economic sitiuation became intolerable, they revolted.

Exactly. I think my point has been made.

Don't think for a minute that the American revolution happened peacefully and without the death of innocent people.

I've never said otherwise. It was brutal and vile affair. Somehow you seem to think I have some bias when it comes to killing and war.

Yes. When you crush the enemy's desire to fight, they'll stop. The fight that doesn't happen is the one that's not worth having.

This is the sort of mentality that keeps the brutality going.
Has it ever worked before?

Didn't the A-bomb on Hiroshima end world war II?

The surrender was signed before the bomb fell. Hiroshima was an evil and unjustifiable event.

All war is.

No amount of equivocating will make the actors seem more adult or human in my eyes.
So long as both sides refuse to accept their part in this, there will be no peace. My heart is sick for those innocents who will continue to suffer and die for the ego's of the blind.

wa:do

 

[Elessar]

Israel had the best military technology that money and connections with the USA could buy. That made all the difference.
The average Palestinian doesn't have such an advantage over Hamas. Quite the opposite.

The United States did not aid Israel during the War for Independence (1948-49) at all; there was a limited support with World War II surplus from the Soviet Union, but the United States refused to intervene in that war; individual Jewish-Americans did put money together to buy US Army surplus and send it to Israel, but the American government even tried to stop this.

Israel did not become a major receiver of U.S. military aid until the Nixon Administration during and after the Yom Kippur War, and this was only due to clear and blatant aid of the Arab states by the Soviet Union in the run-up to that war.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Poisonshady the version of reality you keep describing defies belief. There are about 7 billion people in the world and you seem to think Palestinians, unique among our species, "hates" another group more than they love their own children. This is nonsense, but even if we accept it, how do we explain this "hatred"? For example, why don't the Egyptians, or the Chinese, or the Dutch "hate" Israel more than they love their children? You seem to suggest that the "hatred" is somehow inherent to Palestinians, as if it was some sort of spontaneous genetic mutation. The "hate" may have been directed at just about anyone, though it just happened to be Israel, by your account. But I can think of at least one environmental factor which distinguishes Palestinians from all other people in the world, one which might contribute to "hatred", specifically hatred for Israel: the brutal military rule Israel has imposed on Palestine for three decades. An occupation which creates far more terror, civilian deaths, and childhood psychological trauma in one year than the Qassam rockets have in ten years.

Let's just consider one very typical incident, the kind of thing that happens on a continuing basis in Palestine, whether or not a terrorist attacked Israel:

Middle East: Palestinian boy, 10, dies as Israeli troops fire on demonstration | World news | The Guardian

Middle East: Palestinian boy, 10, dies as Israeli troops fire on demonstration

· Victim shot through the forehead, claim medics
· Army commanders pledge 'thorough investigation'


The Israeli military said it would mount an investigation into the shooting of Ahmed Moussa, which comes just three weeks after an Israeli soldier was captured on video firing at close range a baton round at a Palestinian man who was blindfolded and cuffed.


The incidents occurred in the village of Ni'ilin, near Ramallah, where Palestinian and international protesters regularly rally to demonstrate against the barrier - which cuts the community off from its farmland and protects the Jewish settlements built illegally, according to international law, inside the West Bank.
...
At a hospital in the nearby town of Ramallah, the boy's family waited at the morgue. A paramedic who had driven the body sat on stairs and wept.


"We told him not to go down [to the protests], but he wouldn't listen," the boy's aunt Khadija Moussa, told the Associated Press.

Now, certainly we can all agree that all this violence can be avoided. You think it could have been avoided if the boy's family didn't "hate Israel" so much, and loved their child more. Presumably the other dozens of protesters injured would have been spared if they weren't so "hateful", of if they loved their children more. Perhaps.

But there is another way this could have been avoided. Israel could not eject people from their homes, bulldoze their houses, build illegal settlements, and then build walls to protect those settlements which cut Palestinians off from their farmland and livelihood.

These are actions which one might reasonably interpret as stemming from a "hatred" of Palestine, and a desire to "obliterate and destroy" it. But I suppose as long as official Israeli state rhetoric is peaceful, we can accept that at face value, ignore its actions, and then wonder why Palestinians are so "hateful".

Why would unarmed civilians display so much hate for the innocent walls and bulldozers destroying their livelihood, when Israeli state propaganda says it wants "peace"? Clearly, these hateful unarmed Palestinian civilians oppose the unique form of "peace" Israel generously offers them; therefore, they must be beaten and shot.

 

[linwood]

The surrender was signed before the bomb fell. Hiroshima was an evil and unjustifiable event.

PW can you send me a link for this?

Off Topic..sorry.

Thanks

 

[painted wolf]

woops... I should have said the surrender was clear... it had yet to be accepted by the US or Russia. Japan had been trying to surrender for at least a month prior to the bombings.

MY bad.... but the point remains that the dropping of the H-bombs was unnecessary. (note: I'm not saying that dropping them was a conspiracy either, just a horribly tragic, evil moment)
Was Hiroshima Necessary?
Surrender of Japan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now back on target.

wa:do

 

[Poisonshady313]

Poisonshady the version of reality you keep describing defies belief. There are about 7 billion people in the world and you seem to think Palestinians, unique among our species, "hates" another group more than they love their own children. This is nonsense, but even if we accept it, how do we explain this "hatred"?

How many other people in this world raise their children to aspire to martyrdom for the purpose of destroying another people? What other children are strapped to explosives and wield machine guns as toddlers? I've seen people on this forum praise this behavior, calling it being raised in dignity.

When they raise their children to have a real future, instead of raising them to be cannon fodder, then you can be incredulous when I claim that they hate another group more than they love their own children.

For example, why don't the Egyptians, or the Chinese, or the Dutch "hate" Israel more than they love their children? You seem to suggest that the "hatred" is somehow inherent to Palestinians, as if it was some sort of spontaneous genetic mutation. The "hate" may have been directed at just about anyone, though it just happened to be Israel, by your account. But I can think of at least one environmental factor which distinguishes Palestinians from all other people in the world, one which might contribute to "hatred", specifically hatred for Israel: the brutal military rule Israel has imposed on Palestine for three decades. An occupation which creates far more terror, civilian deaths, and childhood psychological trauma in one year than the Qassam rockets have in ten years.

There is no such nation called "Palestine"... there never has been. There are quotes from Palestinian officials which basically said at one point "Palestine" was simply a region of Syria. When Israel moved into undeveloped, uninhabited land, and bought more virtually useless land for outrageous prices from absentee landlords, and then won the war waged against it in 1948, it became clear that Israel wasn't occupying anything. If anything, the so called Palestinians are the occupiers. They have a home. In Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon... they have a homeland... and they're occupying Israeli territory, claiming it as their own, and committing terrorism against Israel from within Israel. These people have earned whatever blockades and fences that have been put up against them. None of their terrorism is justified. They suffer because they refuse to recognize Israel.

It seems that your position is that Israeli security is responsible for Palestinian terror. It is my position that Palestinian terror is responsible for Israeli security.

Let's just consider one very typical incident, the kind of thing that happens on a continuing basis in Palestine, whether or not a terrorist attacked Israel:

Middle East: Palestinian boy, 10, dies as Israeli troops fire on demonstration | World news | The Guardian
Now, certainly we can all agree that all this violence can be avoided. You think it could have been avoided if the boy's family didn't "hate Israel" so much, and loved their child more. Presumably the other dozens of protesters injured would have been spared if they weren't so "hateful", of if they loved their children more. Perhaps.

But there is another way this could have been avoided. Israel could not eject people from their homes, bulldoze their houses, build illegal settlements, and then build walls to protect those settlements which cut Palestinians off from their farmland and livelihood.

These are actions which one might reasonably interpret as stemming from a "hatred" of Palestine, and a desire to "obliterate and destroy" it. But I suppose as long as official Israeli state rhetoric is peaceful, we can accept that at face value, ignore its actions, and then wonder why Palestinians are so "hateful".

Why would unarmed civilians display so much hate for the innocent walls and bulldozers destroying their livelihood, when Israeli state propaganda says it wants "peace"? Clearly, these hateful unarmed Palestinian civilians oppose the unique form of "peace" Israel generously offers them; therefore, they must be beaten and shot.

I don't blame bulldozers for destroying the home built over a weapons smuggling tunnel, especially when those weapons are regularly fired at or detonated near Israeli civilians.

The fact that the checkpoints and walls have actually reduced the number of suicide bombings says more about Palestinians than it does about Israelis and their walls.

How about a woman who is successfully treated at an Israeli hospital.... is on her way back to that hospital strapped to explosives, to kill hundreds of innocent people in the very hospital that took care of her. What legitimate axe did she have to grind? Would it have been ok for her to blow up inside a hospital, killing hundreds, because Israelis put up checkpoints to prevent such catastrophes from happening?


Check out this video.

LiveLeak.com - Israeli doctors - this is what they get

 

[Poisonshady313]

Here's another reason for the walls and checkpoints:

LiveLeak.com - Terror Against Israel

 

[kai]

anyone who takes more than a glance at the way Hamas and others operate in Palestinian areas will be aware of the child indoctrination in martyrdom the "angels of Allah" ,Its been going on for decades

IMRA - Thursday, January 9, 2003 Report: "Palestinian Media Watch": Pressures Exerted on Palestinian Children to seek Shahada - Death for Allah

Well-documented examples of extensive Palestinian indoctrination to promote child involvement in terrorism, including television programs, are mentioned only in passing. (In the "recruitment" section, the report attributes the majority of attacks carried out by children to “self-motivation” due to a family member’s death or “desperation”. There is no source for this claim, which minimizes the role of indoctrination.) The report also omits specific examples such as the programming in which a four-year-old girl vows to be suicide terrorist, as shown in the publications of Palestinian Media Watch. Similarly, MEMRI has published a detailed report on the use of children’s cartoons to promote child involvement in Palestinian terrorism.11 And in a number of detailed publications, the role of Palestinian parents in promoting childhood terrorism is documented in detail. In one example, Abu Hussein, a leader of the Qassam Brigades in Gaza, is quoted as stating that: “…. so long as [my son] dies as a martyr, and on the condition that he takes Jews with him when he dies. I will be happy if he dies this way… We're happy to sacrifice our families to win this battle."12

http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/...contradictory_evidence_and_unverifiable_claim



On this subject, Mufti Sheikh Ikrimeh Sabri stated his thoughts on child martyrs, as well as the joy of their mothers: "I feel the martyr is lucky because the angels usher him to his wedding in heaven. I feel the earth moves under the occupiers' feet… There is no doubt that a child [martyr] suggests that the new generation will carry on the mission with determination. The younger the martyr - the greater and the more I respect him… They [mothers of martyrs] willingly sacrifice their offspring for the sake of freedom. It is a great display of the power of belief. The mother is participating in the great reward of the Jihad to liberate Al-Aqsa… I talked to a young man… [who] said: '… I want to marry the black-eyed [beautiful] women of heaven.' The next day he became a martyr. I am sure his mother was filled with joy about his heavenly marriage. Such a son must have such a mother.

MEMRI: Special Report - No. 24

 

[Poisonshady313]

In one example, Abu Hussein, a leader of the Qassam Brigades in Gaza, is quoted as stating that: “…. so long as [my son] dies as a martyr, and on the condition that he takes Jews with him when he dies. I will be happy if he dies this way… We're happy to sacrifice our families to win this battle."12
http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/...contradictory_evidence_and_unverifiable_claim

I guess we're about to hear a lecture about why it's Israel's fault that Mr. Hussein feels that way.

 

[Caladan]

If anything, the so called Palestinians are the occupiers. They have a home. In Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon... they have a homeland... and they're occupying Israeli territory, claiming it as their own, and committing terrorism against Israel from within Israel

I wont comment on the indoctrination of Palestinian children, as this is a problem that perhaps needs to be addressed in another thread, and a problem that should be recognized and understood.

but this remark takes away some of weight of your overall post. there is a valid argument about how much the land was inhabited, and the movement of the people through it, the demographics etc.
however, we cannot ignore the Arabs who have lived and still live in the Gaza strip and the WB, regardless of the lack of Palestinian nationality these people ever had other than being subjects of the British mandate of Palestine, we cant shrug off their presence. Egypt and Jordan have decided not to take back the Gaza strip and the WB, and Israel as the controlling force needs to keep recognizing the Palestinians as a party to dialogue with in the peace process.
when you say occupying Israeli territory I have to wonder, what relevance do you mean to say that the Gaza strip and the WB have as Israeli territory?

I think its interesting to keep in mind (especially now, with the trend in recent elections) that right wing governments in Israel executed concessions in land for peace treaties, and Sharon put to action the disengagement plan.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I wont comment on the indoctrination of Palestinian children, as this is a problem that perhaps needs to be addressed in another thread, and a problem that should be recognized and understood.

but this remark takes away some of weight of your overall post. there is a valid argument about how much the land was inhabited, and the movement of the people through it, the demographics etc.
however, we cannot ignore the Arabs who have lived and still live in the Gaza strip and the WB, regardless of the lack of Palestinian nationality these people ever had other than being subjects of the British mandate of Palestine, we cant shrug off their presence. Egypt and Jordan have decided not to take back the Gaza strip and the WB, and Israel as the controlling force needs to keep recognizing the Palestinians as a party to dialogue with in the peace process.
when you say occupying Israeli territory I have to wonder, what relevance do you mean to say that the Gaza strip and the WB have as Israeli territory?

I mean to say that the Gaza strip is as much Israel as is the Negev and the Golan. The Bedouins are Muslims that live peacefully in Israel... why can't Palestinians? If they don't recognize Israel, there's a problem. Israel isn't going away any time soon. So they can either recognize Israel, or keep fighting and losing.

I think its interesting to keep in mind (especially now, with the trend in recent elections) that right wing governments in Israel executed concessions in land for peace treaties, and Sharon put to action the disengagement plan.

And we saw how well that worked. [/sarcasm]

Land for peace is always land and never peace. I'm not against the idea of establishing a Palestinian state in the west bank... but there must be peace first.



Peace for land.

A peaceful coexistence cannot be "what can we do to prevent them from sending suicide bombers and qassams".

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I think its interesting to keep in mind (especially now, with the trend in recent elections) that right wing governments in Israel executed concessions in land for peace treaties, ...

... which is clearly not the same as land for peace. Every experience suggests that Israel's essential task is one of prophylaxis.