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Israel and Palestine | The Solutions Thread

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
Ok, this thread is to explore possible solutions to the Israel and Palestine conflict. I'll start with a suggestion from Daniel Pipes the director of the Middle East Forum and Taube distinguished visiting fellow at the Hoover Institution of Stanford University.

Solving the "Palestinian Problem"

by Daniel Pipes
Jerusalem Post
January 7, 2009
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/6110

Israel's war against Hamas brings up the old quandary: What to do about the Palestinians? Western states, including Israel, need to set goals to figure out their policy toward the West Bank and Gaza.


Let's first review what we know does not and cannot work:
  • Israeli control. Neither side wishes to continue the situation that began in 1967, when the Israel Defense Forces took control of a population that is religiously, culturally, economically, and politically different and hostile.
  • A Palestinian state. The 1993 Oslo Accords began this process but a toxic brew of anarchy, ideological extremism, antisemitism, jihadism, and warlordism led to complete Palestinian failure.
  • A binational state: Given the two populations' mutual antipathy, the prospect of a combined Israel-Palestine (what Muammar al-Qaddafi calls "Israstine") is as absurd as it seems.
Excluding these three prospects leaves only one practical approach, that which worked tolerably well in the period 1948-67:
  • Shared Jordanian-Egyptian rule: Amman rules the West Bank and Cairo runs Gaza.
To be sure, this back-to-the-future approach inspires little enthusiasm. Not only was Jordanian-Egyptian rule undistinguished but resurrecting this arrangement will frustrate Palestinian impulses, be they nationalist or Islamist. Further, Cairo never wanted Gaza and has vehemently rejected its return. Accordingly, one academic analyst dismisses this idea "an elusive fantasy that can only obscure real and difficult choices."

It is not. The failures of Yasir Arafat and Mahmoud Abbas, of the Palestinian Authority and the "peace process," have prompted rethinking in Amman and Jerusalem. Indeed, the Christian Science Monitor's Ilene R. Prusher found already in 2007 that the idea of a West Bank-Jordan confederation "seems to be gaining traction on both sides of the Jordan River."

The Jordanian government, which enthusiastically annexed the West Bank in 1950 and abandoned its claims only under duress in 1988, shows signs of wanting to return. Dan Diker and Pinchas Inbari documented for the Middle East Quarterly in 2006 how the PA's "failure to assert control and become a politically viable entity has caused Amman to reconsider whether a hands-off strategy toward the West Bank is in its best interests." Israeli officialdom has also showed itself open to this idea, occasionally calling for Jordanian troops to enter the West Bank.

Despairing of self-rule, some Palestinians welcome the Jordanian option. An unnamed senior PA official told Diker and Inbari that that a form of federation or confederation with Jordan offers "the only reasonable, stable, long-term solution to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict." Hanna Seniora opined that "The current weakened prospects for a two-state solution forces us to revisit the possibility of a confederation with Jordan." The New York Times' Hassan M. Fattah quotes a Palestinian in Jordan: "Everything has been ruined for us -­ we've been fighting for 60 years and nothing is left. It would be better if Jordan ran things in Palestine, if King Abdullah could take control of the West Bank."

Nor is this just talk: Diker and Inbari report that back-channel PA-Jordan negotiations in 2003-04 "resulted in an agreement in principle to send 30,000 Badr Force members," to the West Bank.

And while Egypt's president Hosni Mubarak announced a year ago that "Gaza is not part of Egypt, nor will it ever be," his is hardly the last word. First, Mubarak notwithstanding, Egyptians overwhelmingly want a strong tie to Gaza; Hamas concurs; and Israeli leaders sometimes agree. So the basis for an overhaul in policy exists.

Secondly, Gaza is arguably more a part of Egypt than of "Palestine." During most of the Islamic period, it was either controlled by Cairo or part of Egypt administratively. Gazan colloquial Arabic is identical to what Egyptians living in Sinai speak. Economically, Gaza has most connections to Egypt. Hamas itself derives from the Muslim Brethren, an Egyptian organization. Is it time to think of Gazans as Egyptians?

Thirdly, Jerusalem could out-maneuver Mubarak. Were it to announce a date when it ends the provisioning of all water, electricity, food, medicine, and other trade, plus accept enhanced Egyptian security in Gaza, Cairo would have to take responsibility for Gaza. Among other advantages, this would make it accountable for Gazan security, finally putting an end to the thousands of Hamas rocket and mortar assaults.

The Jordan-Egypt option quickens no pulse, but that may be its value. It offers a uniquely sober way to solve the "Palestinian problem."
 

kai

ragamuffin
yes very interesting, but how would Hamas feel ? I can see it working on the West bank though.
 

EiNsTeiN

Boo-h!
Interesting thread...I'd come back again (busy with my final exams:S)

Anyways, Egypt won't accept ruling Gaza, as well as Hamas and other Palestinian parties..
The solution should ONLY include Israel and Palestine, because many parties will reject other solutions
 

EiNsTeiN

Boo-h!
Well, Egypt holds a responsibility as the leader of all Arabs, which makes her responsible for establishing a Palestinian state. Adding Gaza to Egyptian territories will only cause more Arabian anger, and will be considered as a huge failure.
Thats why Egypt made the peace agreement with Israel in the first place; to ensure an unbiased role in solving the israelian-palestinian conflict, and to facilitate a smooth establishment of a palestinian state over the land..
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
Well, Egypt holds a responsibility as the leader of all Arabs,

Really, I didn't know that. What evidence do you have of this. Understand, I'm not saying your wrong, I really didn't know that Egypt was considered the leader of all Arabs so if they are, I would like more information about that.
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
Really, I didn't know that. What evidence do you have of this. Understand, I'm not saying your wrong, I really didn't know that Egypt was considered the leader of all Arabs so if they are, I would like more information about that.
It could be that Egypt sees itself in that capacity, as opposed to being something agreed upon by "all Arabs." Either way, it answers your question of "Why not?"

My position is that, as outsiders not directly involved in the conflict, the only things that we can do are

  • point to when either side causes undue harm to non-combatants on either side
  • impose sanctions if human rights abuses are continued
  • offer humanitarian assistance
  • offer to help in ways that are invited by those on either side who are seeking peace
I strongly feel that the notion that we know how to solve other people's conflicts has repeatedly made things worse. Just looking at how the U.S. reacted to 9/11, invading two countries and our human rights abuses in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, should indicate that we do not know any more about peace-making than anyone else.
 
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Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
It could be that Egypt sees itself in that capacity, as opposed to being something agreed upon by "all Arabs." Either way, it answers your question of "Why not?"

It's an answer but I don't how solid it is. As Pipes mentioned:

And while Egypt's president Hosni Mubarak announced a year ago that "Gaza is not part of Egypt, nor will it ever be," his is hardly the last word. First, Mubarak notwithstanding, Egyptians overwhelmingly want a strong tie to Gaza; Hamas concurs; and Israeli leaders sometimes agree. So the basis for an overhaul in policy exists.

So while what EiNsTeiN and Kai said is very true, does it really mean there is no possible way that Egypt would consider administrating Gaza. I don't think so. I say anything is possible.

My position is that, as outsiders not directly involved in the conflict, the only things that we can do are

  • point to when either side causes undue harm to non-combatants on either side
  • impose sanctions if human rights abuses are continued
  • offer humanitarian assistance
  • offer to help in ways that are invited by those on either side who are seeking peace

I'm with you up to the invited part. I think there are a few things we can do even if we aren't invited to do them although you may have covered them in the sanctions and aid comment above as these aren't necessarily invited. Also understand that Israel is an ally of the US and that is not only an invitation but a responsiblity we can't ignore.

I strongly feel that the notion that we know how to solve other people's conflicts has repeatedly made things worse.

Agreed. This an the fact that most Americans and their leaders have little understanding of how things work in the Middle East. As a nation we tend to be cultural illiterates.

Just looking at how the U.S. reacted to 9/11, invading two countries and our human rights abuses in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, should indicate that we do not know any more about peace-making than anyone else.

Oooo, let's not go there in this thread...
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
The Middle East is not monolithic. Short of a massive and sustainable political defeat of Hamas, the proposal suggests that Egypt and Jordan integrate into their borders a despised and dangerous Iranian 5th column that both regimes have fought long and hard to expunge. Neither of these two countries wish to become a second Lebanon.
 

EiNsTeiN

Boo-h!
Really, I didn't know that. What evidence do you have of this. Understand, I'm not saying your wrong, I really didn't know that Egypt was considered the leader of all Arabs so if they are, I would like more information about that.
Well, it's not an official position..But for so long time Egypt and Jordan were treated as the leading countries in the region. The Arab Legue Headquarters is in Egypt. The whole Arab/Israeli conflict is basically managed by Egypt, Jordan and sometimes Saudi Arabia. Thats why the current truce proposed is an Egyptian proposal in the first place..Egypt proposes such kind of stuff.

What lilithu said is true. Sometimes when you don't know other nations well, you mess things up when you force your nose in. Not understanding the Iraqi people nature is still causing many troubles there that seem to be uncontrollable even after several years of ending Saddam's ruling has passed.
 

Random

Well-Known Member
Giving Gaza to Egypt and the West Bank to Jordan seems to me to be the most equitable solution.
 

Elessar

Well-Known Member
Egypt has long been the dominant and most powerful Arab nation/people, for over a century, and other parts of the Arab World have tended to follow its lead (it was the closest thing to a sovereign Arab state before the collapse of the Ottoman Empire; granted, it was part of the British Empire, but it was mostly self-ruled, as opposed to the Turkish-ruled Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Arabia, French-ruled Algeria, Tunisia, and Morocco, Spanish-ruled Sahara, Italian-ruled Libya and Somalia, and even British-ruled Somaliland).

As a result, Egypt is, really, the leading Arab nation, though other Arab nations resent it in this role (especially Saudi Arabia, the "origin" of the Arab peoples and the home of the Holy Cities). For the entire Cold War, where Egypt went, so went the Arab World, at least until the Camp David Accords - and even after; since Egypt made peace with Israel, there has never been a conventional war between Israel and another Arab country.
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
As a result, Egypt is, really, the leading Arab nation, though other Arab nations resent it in this role

This makes sense to me. I can see Egypt as a leading Arab nation but I questioned the other Arab nations being comfortable with the idea. In fact, I would say that other Arab nations occasionally do things to undermine Eqyptian authority due to this resentment.
 
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