Islam vs western values

[Pro Gamer]

the thread got spammed with replies and obviously i am not going to reply to all the 30+ pings

 

[danieldemol]

the thread got spammed with replies and obviously i am not going to reply to all the 30+ pings

You couldn't make a well reasoned response if you wanted to in my opinion so perhaps it's just as well that you have decided to thrust your fingers into your ears figuratively by not giving consideration to them.

 

[1213]

It's written! In the Quran. So it's likely to last as long as fundamentalism persists. Abrahamic religions are hierarchical, and religion in general functions to keep 'the people' in line, the status quo in effect, and the power and privilege of those benefiting from the status quo secure.

I don't think Christianity, if it means the teachings of Jesus, is hierarchical, or useful for people in power, because Jesus says:

For they bind heavy and hard to bear burdens, and lay them on the shoulders of men, but they do not desire to move them with their finger. And they do all their works to be seen by men. And they make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their robes. And they love the first couch in the suppers, and the first seats in the synagogues, and the greetings in the markets, and to be called by men, Rabbi, Rabbi. But do not you be called Rabbi, for One is your Leader, the Christ, and you are all brothers. And call no one your father on earth, for One is your Father, the One in Heaven. Nor be called leaders, for One is your Leader, the Christ. But the greater of you shall be your servant. And whoever will exalt himself shall be humbled, and whoever will humble himself shall be exalted.
Matt. 23:4-12

 

[Valjean]

I don't think Christianity, if it means the teachings of Jesus, is hierarchical, or useful for people in power, because Jesus says:

For they bind heavy and hard to bear burdens, and lay them on the shoulders of men, but they do not desire to move them with their finger. And they do all their works to be seen by men. And they make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their robes. And they love the first couch in the suppers, and the first seats in the synagogues, and the greetings in the markets, and to be called by men, Rabbi, Rabbi. But do not you be called Rabbi, for One is your Leader, the Christ, and you are all brothers. And call no one your father on earth, for One is your Father, the One in Heaven. Nor be called leaders, for One is your Leader, the Christ. But the greater of you shall be your servant. And whoever will exalt himself shall be humbled, and whoever will humble himself shall be exalted.
Matt. 23:4-12

But the Bible condones slavery, and killing mothers and fathers and taking virgin girls as sex slaves. You could beat your slave as long as you didn't injure his eyes or teeth, and if he died a couple days later, that was perfectly OK.
This doesn't sound very egalitarian to me.

In fact, morality, as depicted in the Bible, is atrocious
Was the slaughter of the Midianites moral or justified? How about slaughtering the Amalachites or the prophets of Baal?

Wasn't Abraham was perfectly willing to kill his son? Should someone who breaks the Sabbath be put to death? Yes, according to the Bible.

How about someone who takes the lord's name in vain, blasphemes or criticizes the religion? Again, death, by stoning..
What if you fail to kill a blasphemous friend? Then you must be put to death -- along with your friend.
Adultry? Death!
What of a woman who's not a virgin on her wedding day? She must be stoned to death on her father's doorstep.

This is Biblical morality. I think we could do better if we just forgot the whole book and relied on compassion and common sense.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

different schools of thoughts have never negated basic islamic laws and common folks aren't even aware of schools of thoughts

The claim was made that Islam has evolved since its inception. Those different schools of thought are evidence for that, and the fact that fundamentalism still survives does not rebut it.

being a slave of a muslim is better than living free in the west. we would rather die following islam than bowing to western values that are forced upon us

How are Western values forced on you? You can be who you are now in the West. We've got one zealous Muslim fellow here on RF who lives in the UK, and explained how he ran his household. Not our values, and dozens disapproved - he actually advocated for spousal rape - but nobody doubts that that was how his home was until his wife left him. Western values cost him a submissive, obedient wife, who might not had the social support to do the same thing in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, or Iran. But those values weren't forced on her. She preferred them, the consequences of which were forced on him. Is that what you meant by bowing to Western values? Being exposed to them?

i have already said many times that gays being bad is a morality of most of human history which is a reason on its own

Does that mean that you think that homophobia is innate in humanity, - that all cultures past and present disapprove of homosexuality as an instinct or intuition? If so, I strongly disagree. "You’ve Got to Be Carefully Taught (To Hate)" Homophobia in the Christian and Muslim worlds is due chiefly or entirely to the homophobic doctrine of Abrahamic religion. My social circle is irreligious, and none are homophobes. Nor have I met any homophobic humanists. Nobody is calling it sin to us every weekend, and lacking any innate antipathy for LGBTQ+, I have no reason to call them immoral or object to their lives. Humanism is tolerant and encourages empathy and equal opportunity, so homophobia doesn't grow there.

Who is the real “free thinker”?

The atheist, who:

1) Lives in a secular world,

2) Goes to schools with secular curricula based on secular philosophies that constantly question and critique faith on the basis of “critical thinking,”

3) Is embedded in an elitist secular culture that neither recognizes God or religion,

4) Is everyday exposed to media, movies, and music that ignore or question the existence of God,

5) Resides in an overall secular intellectual milieu where being “religious” is tantamount to naivety and being skeptical of religion is tantamount to enlightenment,

and then, after all that, arrogantly proclaims as if, against all odds, he has made the discovery of the century, “Eureka! There is no God!”?

…………………Or the Muslim, who:

1) Lives in a secular world,

2) Goes to schools with secular curricula based on secular philosophies that constantly question and critique faith on the basis of “critical thinking,”

3) Is embedded in an elitist secular culture that considers Islam retrograde and terroristic,

4) Is everyday exposed to media, movies, and music that ignore or question the existence of God and attack Islam in particular,

5) Resides in an overall secular intellectual milieu where being “religious” is tantamount to naivety, being skeptical of religion is tantamount to enlightenment, and being Muslim is tantamount to simple-mindedness at best, medieval barbarity, at worst,

and then, after all that, maintains conviction and confidence in his Islamic beliefs and holds firm despite the all consuming pressure, like clutching a burning ember?

Who has really gone against the tide and sought after the truth in the face of overwhelming adversity?
who has more indoctrination?

Interesting summary. To me, a freethinker is anybody who challenges orthodoxy religious or otherwise. He's the guy who thinks outside of the box.

Yes, I am acculturated to Western values, specifically, humanism, which in a nutshell is the rejection of claims not adequately supported by academic (scientific, legal) standards for interpreting evidence, and a rejection of received "wisdom" including moral instruction. This results in greater tolerance, in democracy, in the enabling of people through education including teaching critical thinking, and societies structured to allow maximal individual freedom and social and economic opportunity.

I would say that little to none of that describes you, your values, your worldview, or your agenda for man. You are the product of a different worldview. You ask which of us is the freethinker because you are a zealous theist in a world that is increasingly irreligious and finds religion increasingly irrelevant to their lives, and I'm a secularist in a secular world? I am. None of my worldview is received. It's all generated de novo from two basic intuitions - that morality arises from the consciences of constructive people seeking the best lives for the greatest number, and that empiricism, not faith, is the (only) path to truth about reality. Start with that, which doesn't come from a book or any other source than experience and mindfulness, and all of the rest follows.

the thread got spammed with replies and obviously i am not going to reply to all the 30+ pings

You've already provided enough input for me. RF is a chance to see a large spectrum of believers in a large spectrum of denominations, which, if one uses the atheistic humanists as a control, gives one a good sense of the effect these assorted religions have on their adherents. I've only seen about four Muslims write here at any length, so the data set is small, but there are trends I see that seem more prevalent in this religion. You've summarized yourself for me pretty well here. I'd be glad to share that with if you are interested. They'll be opinions based in humanistic values, which I doubt you respect, but if you're like me, you'll be interested in what others think even when you don't expect to find much wisdom there because you're a student of human nature.

 

[Pro Gamer]

a jihad against the west might be enough to change the "centre of the world"

 

[exchemist]

a jihad against the west might be enough to change the "centre of the world"

I thought that had been tried.

P.S. You owe me a reply on whether you advocate public execution by beheading, as is done still, I rather think, in Saudi Arabia.

 

[Pro Gamer]

I thought that had been tried.

P.S. You owe me a reply on whether you advocate public execution by beheading, as is done still, I rather think, in Saudi Arabia.

i don't know about doing it public but execution exist everywhere. aren't american criminals given death sentences?

 

[ChristineM]

a jihad against the west might be enough to change the "centre of the world"

That threat has already failed several times

 

[exchemist]

i don't know about doing it public but execution exist everywhere. aren't american criminals given death sentences?

Does that mean you think that would be progress to reintroduce the death penalty by beheading, then, if perhaps not in public?

(The USA is about the last country with nominally "western" values to retain the death penalty. There's a useful map here:Capital punishment by country - Wikipedia )

 

[Pro Gamer]

Does that mean you think that would be progress to reintroduce the death penalty by beheading, then, if perhaps not in public?

(The USA is about the last country with nominally "western" values to retain the death penalty. There's a useful map here:Capital punishment by country - Wikipedia )

yes beheading of criminals or perhaps hanging them. people get death sentences all the time around the world and usa also gives death sentences

 

[Alien826]

How are Western values forced on you? You can be who you are now in the West. We've got one zealous Muslim fellow here on RF who lives in the UK, and explained how he ran his household. Not our values, and dozens disapproved - he actually advocated for spousal rape - but nobody doubts that that was how his home was until his wife left him. Western values cost him a submissive, obedient wife, who might not had the social support to do the same thing in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, or Iran. But those values weren't forced on her. She preferred them, the consequences of which were forced on him. Is that what you meant by bowing to Western values? Being exposed to them?

I see a pattern with most fundamentalist religious groups. They go to great lengths to shield their children, and even adults, from any beliefs but their own. We see it here with (some*) Evangelical Christians that use home schooling to exclude any contact with modern scientific knowledge that contradicts a literal interpretation of the Bible. So yes, being exposed to them is what they fear. One might ask, if their beliefs are so compelling, what is there to fear? Surely the ridiculous science will be immediately rejected in the pure light of revealed truth?

To be fair, they observe that given a chance their kids will embrace "Western" culture, but they see it as evil temptation rather than the victory of a superior world view.

* I'm trying to not use too broad a brush.

 

[exchemist]

yes beheading of criminals or perhaps hanging them. people get death sentences all the time around the world and usa also gives death sentences

As you will have seen from the map, most developed countries no longer put criminals to death. It is thought barbaric, risks irreversible miscarriages of justice and is not particularly effective as a deterrent.

You are not making a very persuasive case for the intrinsic superiority of your idea of islamic values. Are you actually here to persuade us? Or do you just want to make a series of assertions and then disappear before anyone can challenge you to justify them? I've spent time in the Middle East and I'm very willing to admit that there are some attractive aspects to islam, in the gentle, thoughtful form in which it was represented by many muslims - of both sexes - I met. But you seem to come from a different, harsh and unappealing tradition.

 

[Valjean]

When one's facts" and ideas will not stand up to scrutiny, reason and debate, I see several common responses:

Bury one's head in the sand and not acknowledge contrarian points.
Bury the opposition in a Gish gallop of disinformation and questions.
Conceal or censor any contrary facts or information that might lead to questions or unorthodox ideas among the faithful.
Make dissent and unorthodox ideas, ie: blasphemy, illegal.
Use violence against heretics and disbelievers.
Defame the opposition so they'll be ignored.

 

[MikeDwight]

When one's facts" and ideas will not stand up to scrutiny, reason and debate, I see several common responses:

Bury one's head in the sand and not acknowledge contrarian points.
Bury the opposition in a Gish gallop of disinformation and questions.
Conceal or censor any contrary facts or information that might lead to questions or unorthodox ideas among the faithful.
Make dissent and unorthodox ideas, ie: blasphemy, illegal.
Use violence against heretics and disbelievers.
Defame the opposition so they'll be ignored.

At the height of Christianity, it was not a monopoly, it was a subscription group and order, a check and a balance, a garden and a retreat.
At Islam's restored power is a Power of a new Mohammad called Caliph , called Sultan, only disrupted by the West. Moral police are replacement police. Iran's president is superceded by a Dictator of Morality and Culture and History.

In fact if we ever gave a one to one or a grouping or group all the religious nuts , what good is that?

 

[exchemist]

At the height of Christianity, it was not a monopoly, it was a subscription group and order, a check and a balance, a garden and a retreat.
At Islam's restored power is a Power of a new Mohammad called Caliph , called Sultan, only disrupted by the West. Moral police are replacement police. Iran's president is superceded by a Dictator of Morality and Culture and History.

In fact if we ever gave a one to one or a grouping or group all the religious nuts , what good is that?

??

 

[MikeDwight]

??

Beheadings would be a fraction of the issue. Western Values and Immanuel Kant? Well he's a religious pietist, a family conerned with literal bible interpretation in the mid 1700's. All the same, well if you are talking Islam vs Western Values as a group without Christianity, thats fine, but all the same, the liberal playground has extended to the enslavement of women with Christian sanction like "The Handmaid's Tale" or they blow up the Constitution or Christians destroy and terrorists at abortion Clinics, the Christian Right, or Christians are in depression cults, self harm cults, Jones Town.

The Christian Peace of World War 1 is Southern Presbyterian Woodrow Wilson, its based on the 10 commandments, soldiers were given a Bible with Wilson's Covenant. The Church is a Sanctuary in its center and Peace to people a humanist Peace to all people. Now I Just said above that, you can't compare the effect of McDonalds on a Society with the Blackwater Mercenary Company on every corner. If Christianity is McDonalds you'd let it flounder peacably I would have thought.

 

[exchemist]

Beheadings would be a fraction of the issue. Western Values and Immanuel Kant? Well he's a religious pietist, a family conerned with literal bible interpretation in the mid 1700's. All the same, well if you are talking Islam vs Western Values as a group without Christianity, thats fine, but all the same, the liberal playground has extended to the enslavement of women with Christian sanction like "The Handmaid's Tale" or they blow up the Constitution or Christians destroy and terrorists at abortion Clinics, the Christian Right, or Christians are in depression cults, self harm cults, Jones Town.

The Christian Peace of World War 1 is Southern Presbyterian Woodrow Wilson, its based on the 10 commandments, soldiers were given a Bible with Wilson's Covenant. The Church is a Sanctuary in its center and Peace to people a humanist Peace to all people. Now I Just said above that, you can't compare the effect of McDonalds on a Society with the Blackwater Mercenary Company on every corner. If Christianity is McDonalds you'd let it flounder peacably I would have thought.

Er, right.......looks to me as if your hovercraft is full of eels, old chap.

 

[MikeDwight]

Er, right.......looks to me as if your hovercraft is full of eels, old chap.

The UN heard from hello Kitty that Hello Kitty is from a suburb in London and she's not actually a cat.

 

[Pro Gamer]

As you will have seen from the map, most developed countries no longer put criminals to death. It is thought barbaric, risks irreversible miscarriages of justice and is not particularly effective as a deterrent.

You are not making a very persuasive case for the intrinsic superiority of your idea of islamic values. Are you actually here to persuade us? Or do you just want to make a series of assertions and then disappear before anyone can challenge you to justify them? I've spent time in the Middle East and I'm very willing to admit that there are some attractive aspects to islam, in the gentle, thoughtful form in which it was represented by many muslims - of both sexes - I met. But you seem to come from a different, harsh and unappealing tradition.

developed countries still have death sentences and what's barbaric about hanging a murderer? do you want him to walk free after 20 years or so? you have spent time in the middle east so you might have seen that their life in terms of happiness is better than those westerns so how do you think they live a better life without "essential western moralities" such as liberalism,feminism etc? aren't you guys supposed to be the happiest and most moral people on earth? why doesn't your ideas work practically? people will behave soft towards you in real life regardless of what laws they believe should be applied in the country