Not true.
that's some scholars claim.
You need to read Muhammad(pbuh) credibal story NOT lies.
They stone him and insult him ,he forgave them.
and in opening of Mecca he forgave the disbelievers .
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Islam fights free speech
- Thread starter icehorse
- Start date
that's some scholars claim.
You need to read Muhammad(pbuh) credibal story NOT lies.
They stone him and insult him ,he forgave them.
and in opening of Mecca he forgave the disbelievers .
Well in the DIR forums I would not be allowed to reject bad arguments.
This OP is specifically about one major concern I have about Islam. It is the only major religion for which critics should justifiably fear for their physical safety. The article I linked to specified many instances of this problem.
To the apologists: You guys play this shell game over and over again. We've been debating Islam with each other for a long time now and you know that I'm not racist and that I understand the difference between Islam and Muslims. Those arguments are simply lazy on your part.
Now, it IS true that not all Muslims will commit acts of violence when their faith is criticized. Of course, that goes without saying. In fact, as I've said many times, I'm happy to acknowledge that statistically, very few Muslims would do so. But the few that would, are mounting a consequential attack on human rights. And those who would do violence come from many different regions and cultures. The one thing they seem to have in common is Islam.
There is many non-Muslim countries don't have free speech .
in France if you deny Holocaust you will pay taxes.
I do believe freedom of speech is limited in West too. there is rising against Muslims freedom , like mosques or burkini, or Islamic dress ...etc.
@icehorse ,@YmirGF
@LuisDantas I dare you to walk with a shirt , written on it VIVA AL-QEADA or VIVA BIN LADEN in USA. or
VIVA HITLER, VIVA DAESH in Europe, or VIVA ARABS in Israel ...etc
I do believe freedom of speech is used to please , unpleased once may judged or consider as provocation.
@LuisDantas I dare you to walk with a shirt , written on it VIVA AL-QEADA or VIVA BIN LADEN in USA. or
VIVA HITLER, VIVA DAESH in Europe, or VIVA ARABS in Israel ...etc
I do believe freedom of speech is used to please , unpleased once may judged or consider as provocation.
I think you just confirmed what I said without meaning to.
Those are actually lies some people, specially some Christians, and Christianity in all its denominations has so much in its history too, loved to use against Islam.
I'm interested, do you know those claimed poems to say they are criticism?
Yes I affirm freedom of speech is decrease in West especially toward Muslims,and it's used to please , unpleasant one not welcome,and not shown in media ,and may judged.
No, Sahih Bukhari says so. It's also in Sahih Muslim.
And I can't be bothered to give references because it'll somehow be a 'weak hadith' even though it's sahih. There'll be some excuse.
whatever.
I personaly don't take every sahih in credible range. I just take which match with Quran and with my beliefs.
Bukhari and Muslim were not prophets, and their books don't equal to Quran.
The problem is that Islam has no central authority. Christians are told "Muslims believe in the Qur'an and the Sunnah and the Hadith." So we argue with you based on what we read in what we are told you believe in. And then when you say you don't believe this or that hadith it seems to us like cherry picking. To us it's like, either you accept it all in full or you don't accept any. We can't argue with every single Muslim on an individual basis, that would be ridiculous. If each Muslim defines what part of Hadith and Sunnah he does and doesn't believe, then there must be 1.4 billion different versions of Islam, which is absurd. Within Christianity the Bible is a product of the Church, not the other way around, so the Church tells you what is and isn't divinely inspired scripture. If you don't believe so-and-so, you're a heretic. Simple.
In other words, arguing with Muslims is impossible because they are allowed to cherry pick like this and so no-one has a goddamn clue what any of you actually believes.
You are missing the point entirely, intentionally or otherwise, and I fear that hurts your credibility while attaining nothing.
Explain,where you disagree ?
Augustus
…
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
This argument is a bit childish, imo ..
If I ridicule some ignorant person on the street (I wouldn't), they would probably threaten me with violence.
Some Muslims are ignorant too.
However, if you're proud that society finds it amusing to blaspheme against holy prophets, I can only assume that the society is becoming degraded, and I don't see any value in this kind of free speech whatsoever!
Personally, I keep myself to myself .. ignorant behaviour is on the increase from all sections of society, perhaps apart from the educated few
If I ridicule some ignorant person on the street (I wouldn't), they would probably threaten me with violence.
Some Muslims are ignorant too.
However, if you're proud that society finds it amusing to blaspheme against holy prophets, I can only assume that the society is becoming degraded, and I don't see any value in this kind of free speech whatsoever!
Personally, I keep myself to myself .. ignorant behaviour is on the increase from all sections of society, perhaps apart from the educated few
In the past people probably had other methods like today's memes on social media (for example) that people read and choose to believe on the fly. Also beside what you said, let's first consider it is really there in the books. Anyone can say anything on the internet and end it with "narrated by someone". Unless it is read directly from the books in a credible library, it's nothing. That's why I keep asking people to think rationally and take things neutrally in delicate matters like these.
I wish this message was for @icehorse .
There is one commun understanding , not 1.4 billion different version of Islam. we agree one major things.
some not effective details we are not agree on.
for exemple you would not find a Muslim said God is 2 or 3 or Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is God or Messaih...etc
You would not find a Muslim doubt about companssion of prophet Muhammad(pbuh) toward non-Muslims.
but we disagreement about what you mention above.
My farvorite scholar Dr Adnan Ibrahim revealed some extrem Hadiths are not credible,he proved by historic source and evidence, and aslo he revealed that Aisha (pbuh) never married prophet Muhammad (pbuh) by source and historic evidence he bring.
So I do think Hadith books should filtered by back to the its credibility sources.
ANY popular and/or powerful set of ideas MUST be subject to criticism. To characterize this as "amusing" is to miss the point. And yes, I'm quite proud of a society that allows free expression. Let me ask you this: who do you know that you would trust to censor news for you? Who would you trust to decide for you what you should be able to read and what you should not?
Some percentage of Muslims - from all over the world - choose to be violent when Islam is criticized.
McBell
mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Yes, there are Muslims who are so weak in their faith they feel they must threaten those who "insult" it.
Yes, there seems to be a severe lacking of Muslims disagreeing with those who threaten critics.
I know not of any "denomination" of Islam that openly defines itself as a supporter of modern human rights and liberties.
that said...
I know a large number of Muslims personally.
And if any of them harbor the animosity towards those who "insult" Islam the likes we see in the media, they have not revealed it.
Don't get me wrong, they disagree with some of the crap said about Islam, Mohammed, etc. and do in fact find a lot if not most or even all of it insulting.
However, I have not heard heard directly nor indirectly of any of them threatening death or wish of death upon the insulters.
I cannot help but wonder how long this thread will have to get before all the bull **** distractions are put aside and the two main points of the OP are actually addressed:
- Some Muslims do in fact threaten those who "insult" Islam.
- Muslims seem reluctant to make it known they disagree with said threats