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Featured Isaiah 53 Suffering Servant

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by sooda, Apr 9, 2019.

  1. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    It looks like you're playing both sides of the fence. When you want it to refer to jesus, you have no problem explaining that the verse refers to a specific incident. But when you want to explain how it can't be Israel, the verse must be speaking generally.
     
  2. MJFlores

    MJFlores John 15:19

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    You said: Alternatively, if you prefer I can fabricate a book about a semi-historical figure and then compare events in that book to these verses here to see if that book I wrote was telling the truth. This chapter is a description of the last 2,000 years of Jewish history. Well after the Tanach was sealed. Your question should have been asking me to compare these verses with Jewish history, which I can do.

    But it might be moot and academic since my post above
    #179 MJFlores, 30 minutes ago

    Joshua 8:24 New International Version (NIV)
    When Israel had finished killing all the men of Ai in the fields and in the wilderness where they had chased them, and when every one of them had been put to the sword, all the Israelites returned to Ai and killed those who were in it.

    So Israel has done violence, because it had to in obedience to God's commands.
    And as such Isaiah 53:7 disqualifies Israel from being identified as the object of Isa 53
     
  3. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    Using your logic here jesus is also disqualified because it says "and he didn't open his mouth". Meanwhile the NT portrays Jesus eating which implies he did open his mouth.
     
  4. MJFlores

    MJFlores John 15:19

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    As a member of the Church of Christ, I have to know the Old Testament [Genesis to Malachi] as well as the New Testament [Matthew to Revelations] - they are not in conflict with each other. Even Jesus Christ is born under the Law of Moses and did not do away with the law. So I could say, that pertains to Israel but that does not pertain to Jesus and vice versa.

    Did Jesus complain when he was being tortured, spit, slapped by the Pharisees and the Jews? No.
    Therefore it pertains to my Lord Jesus on "Yet He did not open His mouth [to complain or defend Himself];"

     
  5. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Well, if you want to take "mouth" literally, then you should take "didn't open his mouth literally."
    Oh, wait -- you "amplify it" through interpretation when it suits you. Got it.
     
  6. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    Is your argument "I know what I'm talking about, take my word for!"???
    ...I hope not...

    Skipping the ramblings...

    Hey! You're adding words here. All it says in the text is that "He did not open his mouth". Did Jesus ever open his mouth? Yes? Then sorry, can't be him.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  7. MJFlores

    MJFlores John 15:19

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    Don't forget he also yawned.
    He spoke using telepathy to his disciples.
    Really?

    [​IMG]
     
  8. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Over turning the money tables, and quoting scripture isn't violent; using the Sanhedrin's made up Gospel of John to make a case is maliciously misleading people.
    Isaiah 53:7 says he was lead up to slaughter silently (Matthew 27:11-14, Mark 15:1-5, Luke 23:1-14); it doesn't say his slaughter was silent, instead it says through his knowledge he leads many people to righteousness, so the words uttered at the cross are scripture.

    The idea you'd stand against king David through ignorance is understandable; yet to have it explained for you, and to still choose to stand against it is naive.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  9. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Sure...whatever you say.
    https://baptistnews.com/article/jesus-the-man-of-violence/#.XLClePlKgdA
    Based in your deluded opinion. That's fine.
    Actually, Is. 53:7 never mentions Jesus. It mentions that other nations commented about Israel that it didn't open its mouth.
     
  10. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    Yeah, really. Isa. 53:7 is talking about times in history (since as it's been pointed out to you multiple times, the perspective is that of the non-Jewish leaders during the Messianic Era exclaiming at their treatment of the Jewish people over history) where the Jewish people were oppressed. In case that wasn't clear, again, when verse 9 says, "they made his grave with the wicked...on his not having done violence" means that the nations deemed Israel wicked - but not due to any violence on the part of Israel. You continuously quote verses throughout Tanach about violence that Israel did, but that's clearly not the topic of the this chapter in general of this verse in particular.

    So why do you find it odd that I return to you this same treatment?
     
  11. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Since the article precedes to use the false Gospel of John to make a case, with Yeshua not doing anything violent himself; then your case is fraudulent.
    There is overwhelming evidence to show clearly the Gospel of John has to be written by the Pharisees within the Sanhedrin.

    Do you understand this isn't an argument to win, as if you win, mankind dies. :oops:
    Isaiah 52:10-15 is about David with the spirit of salvation within him, coming as the holy vessel of the Lord with the name Yehoshua/Yeshua...

    The idea to reject the Tanakh, use a false name that is rude (Jeh-Sus - Lord of the Beast), and then to deny the Curse of Moses (Deuteronomy 28-32) by changing the afflictions of Israel into some form of atonement, is condemnable.

    Isaiah 53:1 says 'who would have believed the rumor'; it is something so far fetched, how could any righteous Jew accept something so evil, when compared to the Law?

    Plus the word 'Rumor' links the Bed of Adultery in Isaiah 28:9-21; which clearly is not referencing Israel as the Chief Corner Stone (Isaiah 28:16, Psalms 118:22)...

    Ezekiel 7:26 understood Isaiah's prophecy, and refers to Israel's destruction because of it.

    The idea of removing David as the Messiah, when it is clearly stated (Psalms 89:19-21 & Isaiah 52:13-14) , and then replacing Messianic prophecy with Israel, is why the Tribulation happens soon (WW3), where then God removes everyone who is ungodly in a single day.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  12. MJFlores

    MJFlores John 15:19

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    [​IMG]


    Isaiah 53:6-8 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
    We had all wandered away like sheep. We had gone our own way. And yet the Lord put all our guilt on him.

    He was treated badly, but he never protested. He said nothing, like a lamb being led away to be killed. He was like a sheep that makes no sound as its wool is being cut off. He never opened his mouth to defend himself. He was taken away by force and judged unfairly. The people of his time did not even notice that he was killed. But he was put to death for the sins of his people.

    Isaiah 53:6-8 Contemporary English Version (CEV)
    All of us were like sheep
    that had wandered off.
    We had each gone our own way,
    but the Lord gave him
    the punishment we deserved.

    He was painfully abused,
    but he did not complain.
    He was silent like a lamb
    being led to the butcher,
    as quiet as a sheep
    having its wool cut off.

    He was condemned to death
    without a fair trial.
    Who could have imagined
    what would happen to him?
    His life was taken away
    because of the sinful things
    my people had done.

    Isaiah 53:6-8 Good News Translation (GNT)
    All of us were like sheep that were lost,
    each of us going his own way.
    But the Lord made the punishment fall on him,
    the punishment all of us deserved.

    “He was treated harshly, but endured it humbly;
    he never said a word.
    Like a lamb about to be slaughtered,
    like a sheep about to be sheared,
    he never said a word.
    He was arrested and sentenced and led off to die,
    and no one cared about his fate.
    He was put to death for the sins of our people.

    Isaiah 53:6-8 Living Bible (TLB)
    We—every one of us—have strayed away like sheep! We, who left God’s paths to follow our own. Yet God laid on him the guilt and sins of every one of us!

    He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he never said a word. He was brought as a lamb to the slaughter; and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he stood silent before the ones condemning him. From prison and trial they led him away to his death. But who among the people of that day realized it was their sins that he was dying for—that he was suffering their punishment?

    [​IMG]
     
  13. MJFlores

    MJFlores John 15:19

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    The history of Israel was violent because its neighbors are violent.
    The Israelites are the holy nation of God, God's chosen people in those days.
    And their application of violence was ordered by God and when they sinned those violence were not sanctioned.
    Was ancient Israel violent? Without a doubt as I have listed the many battles and the biblical references.

    [​IMG]

    And having said that ancient Israel did violence as a fact
    Then it is not the servant mentioned in Isa 53
    Because of its involvement in violence, not once but many times.
    If ancient Israel isn't the servant, maybe the present State of Israel qualifies as


    Isaiah 53:9 New International Version (NIV)
    He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
    though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.



    I guess not.
     
  14. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Just going from the bible. Not going outside "of that book". The context of the the verses in Chap 53 1-12 are speaking about the redemption ( possibly a future redemption of the nation of Israel )

    Most kindly review the data below. I think you will find that there is good solid evidence below that the book of Isaiah is speaking about the nation of Israel.

    My question to you is:

    Why does there have to be 1 meaning to these verses? Why does it have to be either Israel **or** your Jesus Christ?

    If Isaiah's audience is Jewish people that lived at the time when these words were spoken, then it makes sense that Isaiah is speaking about the nation of Israel.

    If Isaiah's audience is future Christians, and Isaiah is speaking prophetically, then almost anything is possible. And I can imagine many messianic belief systems will find support in the book of Isaiah.

    Why does it have to so black and white? Why can't the verses mean different things to different people?

    (Note: if you want to continue the discussion of the verses which you presented that you claim disqualify Israel as the subject of these verses, please let me know.)

    agreed.

    the "outstretched arm" is a very common phrase used among Jewish people when speaking about the redemption from Egypt. I have attached the biblical sources to show that the word used in Isaiah matches the word used in Exodus and Deuteronomy.

    If Isaiah's audience is Jewish people; then the "arm" anthropomorphism is likely a throw-back to the verses in Exodus and Deuteronomy. Isaiah is reminding the Jewish people how they became a nation. They became a nation from the Exodus. They were slaves; G-d redeemed them; They can be redeemed again.

    If Isaiah's audience are future Christians and Isaiah's words have double meaning ( an idea which has merit, IMHO ) then anything's possible. There's a lot that can be inferred, especially after the fact, by what Isaiah is saying.

    Exodus 6:6

    Selection_074.png

    Deuteronomy 26:8

    Selection_077.png

    Isaiah 52:10

    Selection_075.png
    Isaiah 53:1

    Selection_076.png
    Selection_078.png

    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    The above shows that the same word for "arm" used in Isaiah is used in Exodus and Deuteronomy referring to the redemption of the nation of Israel.

    This is further supported by the previous chapter, 52, which is much more prophetic, IMHO, because the verses are written speaking about the future. See below:

    Isaiah 52:1

    "Awake, awake, O Zion! Clothe yourself in splendor; Put on your robes of majesty, Jerusalem, holy city! For the uncircumcised and the unclean Shall never enter you again.

    Arise, shake off the dust, Sit [on your throne], Jerusalem! Loose the bonds from your neck, O captive one, Fair Zion!

    For thus said the LORD: You were sold for no price, And shall be redeemed without money.

    For thus said the Lord GOD: Of old, My people went down To Egypt to sojourn there; But Assyria has robbed them, Giving nothing in return.

    What therefore do I gain here? —declares the LORD— For My people has been carried off for nothing, Their mockers howl —declares the LORD— And constantly, unceasingly, My name is reviled.

    Assuredly, My people shall learn My name, Assuredly [they shall learn] on that day That I, the One who promised, Am now at hand.

    How welcome on the mountain Are the footsteps of the herald Announcing happiness, Heralding good fortune, Announcing victory, Telling Zion, “Your God is King!”

    Hark! Your watchmen raise their voices, As one they shout for joy; For every eye shall behold The LORD’s return to Zion.

    Raise a shout together, O ruins of Jerusalem! For the LORD will comfort His people, Will redeem Jerusalem.

    The LORD will bare His holy arm In the sight of all the nations, And the very ends of earth shall see The victory of our God.

    Turn, turn away, touch naught unclean As you depart from there; Keep pure, as you go forth from there, You who bear the vessels of the LORD!

    For you will not depart in haste, Nor will you leave in flight; For the LORD is marching before you, The God of Israel is your rear guard.

    Indeed, My servant shall prosper, Be exalted and raised to great heights.

    Just as the many were appalled at him— So marred was his appearance, unlike that of man, form, beyond human semblance—

    Just so he shall startle many nations. Kings shall be silenced because of him, For they shall see what has not been told them, Shall behold what they never have heard.”

    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    What is Isaiah speaking about?

    Jerusalem.
    Zion.
    Past Redemption ( in haste, in flight ) from Egypt
    A Future Redemption of the Jewish People

    The context of 53 seems clear to me. Please correct me if I am wrong. Isaiah Chapter 53 is speaking about the nation of Israel.

    It is hard for me to believe that Jesus Christ is a perfect fit for these verses. The Nation of Israel is a much better fit considering the verses immediately preceding it.

    ( note to @rosends, thank you for pointing out that the chapter breaks were added after. This lends even more support that the verses I am speaking about labeled Chap 52 lead directly into the verses labeled Chap 53. )

    Edit: the green box on the Deut 26:8 reference is not correct... the green box is surrounding the word "chazakah" in error... sorry...
     
    #194 dybmh, Apr 12, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
  15. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    @MJFlores

    Please note. The **HIM** that Isaiah is speaking about:

    BEYOND HUMAN FORM.

    That's straight up from the bible.
     
  16. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    @MJFlores ,

    I respect you. I respect your beliefs and your opinions. And I hope you believe me when I say. I am not contradicting your belief in Jesus Christ.

    We are speaking about 1 book. And really, this thread is focused on 1 chapter of that 1 book.

    But if you want to go with the "it's a perfect fit" argument, I'm sorry, that argument is false.

    Based on Chap 52: verse 14, Isaiah was talking about something without human form, not resembling a man.

    Brother: that means all those pictures of bloody hands and Jesus on the cross... Dude, those are 100% irrelevant.

    Maybe "The Passion of the Christ" is a true story. But, Isaiah is not supporting evidence for that.

    You are barking up the wrong tree.
     
  17. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    The article also cites other gospels. Baby, meet bathwater.
    Yeah...that's not the delusion.
    Yes, in your "opinion." Not in fact.
     
  18. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Thankfully it is our guestlist for the Messianic Age, like Isaiah 53:12 states or Revelation 21:27, which we get Jews do not take as fact, which is why Heaven doesn't take fakes as fact.

    Currently Rabbinic Judaism stands against the Curse of Moses, literally there is only one option available - learn or be removed by the Holy Fire soon (Deuteronomy 29:19-26, Zechariah 13:9).

    Clearly you're unaware that our conversation is prophesied, maybe that is why you're assuming God isn't aware of everything.

    Revelation 3:9-12 Behold, I give some of the synagogue of Satan, of those who say they are Jews, and they are not, but lie. Behold, I will make them to come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. (10) Because you kept my command to endure, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, which is to come on the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. (11) I am coming quickly! Hold firmly that which you have, so that no one takes your crown. (12) He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar (Sandalphon) in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God (Zion - Psalms 146:10, Psalms 147:12, Isaiah 52:7), the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name (Sananda).

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  19. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    @wizanda ,

    I've just reviewed all your posts in this thread. There is a lot there.

    I see where you referenced Psalm 89... I need to process that a little more. I don't know what to make of it.

    And It's clear that I am walking into an ongoing debate on this matter of David's branch and the Messianic era.

    I have 3 questions for now:

    1) The idea that the "arm" in Isaiah is the Messiah. Can you help with that? Up to this point all the evidence is leading me to the contrary. So far, as you have read, it seems that on its surface, the arm is a reference to G-d acting as a redeemer in the Exodus story. It seems like Isaiah is using the analogy to help the audience recall the Exodus. Is there anything else you can add to support the claim that the "arm" is the Messiah?

    2) I'm trying to understand how the alternate transaltion of the word "Mashach" to "anointed" fits into the context Isaiah 52:14? When someone was anointed in oil, it never changed their form to something unrecognizable. Am I remembering wrong? Are there any other examples in the bible where the word "anointed" involved a dramatic change in something / someone's external appearance?

    3) I am having trouble comparing your perspective with MJFlores' perspective on what Isaiah is speaking about in Chap 53. What do you think? Is Isaiah speaking about the Jesus Christ that is portrayed in the movie "Passion of the Christ"?
     
  20. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    The New Testament as written by Saul of Tarsus (aka Paul) educated by Rabbi Gameliel
    would probably look at it as:

    the Messiah, the church in Messiah and Spiritual Israel

    In Romans there is physical and spiritual Israel (with some overlap) and physical circumsision and spiritual circumscisioni (with some overlap)

    Isaiah 49:6 is applied to the Church in Christ in the book of Acts and is a key missionary verse in the book
     
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