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Featured Isaiah 53 Suffering Servant

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by sooda, Apr 9, 2019.

  1. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Arm of the Lord is in Isaiah 52:10, and states Yeshuat Eloheinu (H3444 + H430) the Salvation of our God...

    The Arm is also in Isaiah 53:1, so this is a header, with everything inside being contextual...

    Isaiah 52:10-15 paraphrases Psalms 89:19-21; which shows the Messiah is King David as Yehoshua.

    Isaiah 53:1 doesn't start with a Vav.

    Isaiah 53 interlinks with Zechariah 11 where the 'leaders abhor' the Messiah; Isaiah 53:1 connects to Isaiah 28:9-21 on the 'Rumor to Rumor' 'Bed of Adultery', which then connects to Ezekiel 7:26 which references it...

    Isaiah 8 sets the 'Snare' in Isaiah 28, which then means the 'Large Scroll' in Zechariah 5 is contextual, and thus Habakkuk 2 is the same description of the 'city of wickedness'...

    We could go into loads more detail...
    As the person with the new name of the Messiah, explained it already; it just takes reading all the additional contexts, like whole chapters, and not just odd verses.

    Would advise Bible software like Esword, as to see the intertextuality needed to understand the Tanakh, we have to see all the interconnecting small print...

    The only way to do this is to search by Strongs reference numbers, as searching by Hebrew doesn't provide all results.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
    #161 wizanda, Apr 12, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
  2. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Isaiah 8:2 prophesied by name Zechariah son of Berechiah; in Hebrew if you add a yod at the start of something, it means 'it shall be'...

    The prophecies of Isaiah 8 continue in Zechariah 5 with the 'Large Scroll' being referenced.

    Yeshua (H3444) Salvation is found 18 times in Isaiah, and most are contextual to the spirit of salvation put into the Messiah.

    Exodus 15:2 Yah is my strength and song. He has become my salvation (H3444). This is my God, and I will praise him; my father’s God, and I will exalt him.

    Psalms 118:14 Yah is my strength and song. He has become my salvation (H3444).

    Psalms 118:21-22 I will give thanks to you, for you have answered me, and have become my salvation (H3444). (22) The stone which the builders rejected has become the cornerstone.


    Thus the Corner Stone is the Lord becoming Salvation to our people.

    Isaiah 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation. I will trust, and will not be afraid; for Yah, Yahweh, is my strength and song; and he has become my salvation. (H3444)”


    Moses called the spirit of salvation from YHVH, Yeshua (H3444); so the idea the Jews reject their Lord is written here in the Curse of Moses.

    Deuteronomy 32:15 But Jeshurun grew fat, and kicked. You have grown fat. You have grown thick. You have become sleek. Then he abandoned God who made him, and rejected the Rock of his salvation (H3444).

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  3. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    @MJFlores ,

    At this point I'm not sure that having a mature academic discussion with you is possible. I think we simply approach the text in 2 very different ways.

    You're welcome to read what ever you want into it if it makes you happy and if it makes you feel strong in your beliefs. But the "duck test" as you are calling it, to me, is flat earth thinking. To me you are saying, the earth is flat because it looks flat. The sun orbits the earth because it appears that way. Isaiah is speaking about Jesus because that's how it appears on the surface. The pictures from a Hollywood movie look real, therefore the events are real.

    Your entire thesis is based on a superficial immature non-academic approach.

    I tried to explain how the Bus-metaphor is a little offensive because you did not include your own flaws in the metaphor, and you implied that I don't have a sense of humor.

    Again, your approach is immature and one-sided.

    If you want to discuss the matter with me further; if you want to look at the text in a mature academic manner; then I am happy to proceed.

    My first request is to stop posting pictures from a movie and trying to use those as evidence. They are not supporting your claim. I think they bring you pleasure and that's why you are posting them. But, for me, they represent adolescent self-gratification.
     
    #163 dybmh, Apr 12, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
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  4. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    @wizanda , @whirlingmerc ,

    I will review the information you provided and try to reply soon. I am learning this information in real-time; i appreciate your patience.

    Thank you,
     
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  5. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    I hope the pictures and videos do not give you nightmares or something.
    I love to feel being adolescent, it is a feeling I truly missed - ah the youth wasted....

    I am superficial immature non-academic.
    I love to use audio-visual presentation
    To support written testimonies with such presentation
    People can lie, put conjectures and garnishing on these lies but when presented a picture which shows a thousand words, their words are overwhelmed.
    I love humor because I doze off easily. Humor brings out life in a dull moment.
    I am a bible person, if it is outside of that book - I couldn't comment.
    That is my style, very unorthodox and unconventional - you can even call it WILD.

    Been looking at a verse in Isa 53 and I'm trying hard to fit it into Israel.
    but I could easily refer New Testament verses on each line of Isa 53:8

    Isaiah 53:8 New International Version (NIV)
    By oppression and judgment he was taken away. John 19:16
    Yet who of his generation protested? Luke 23:21
    For he was cut off from the land of the living; Mark 15:39
    for the transgression of my people he was punished. 1 Peter 3:18

    Since when did Israel - by oppression and "judgement" he was taken away.
    Since when? The Babylonian exile? No. It says there is "judgement" And when there is judgement, there is a verdict.

    Since when did Israel have a generation? Israel has plenty of generations - from the patriarch, the prophets and the Christian era. But this verse speaks of - Yet who of his generation protested?

    Since when did Israel die? The Diaspora of 70 AD? And this death speaks of SINS of my people as punishment.

    I believe this is not ISRAEL
    This is a person condemned as judgement was passed against him
    This is a person whose generation shouted "Crucify him! Crucify him!"
    This is a person who was hanged on a tree and died
    This is a person who claimed the punishment for the sins of many.

    I can't fit ISRAEL on this.
    It's like fitting the glass shoe on Cinderella's step sister.

    upload_2019-4-12_17-1-36.jpeg

    But Isa 53:8 fits exactly right on Jesus Christ.
     
  6. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    It doesn't say 'marred', it says 'anointed', and with an additional yod found in the Dead Sea Scrolls (1QIsaa), it becomes clearer it is paraphrasing David in Psalms 89:19-21.
    Exodus 23:20-21 “Behold, I send an angel before you, to keep you by the way, and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. (21) Pay attention to him, and listen to his voice. Don’t provoke him, for he will not pardon your disobedience, for my title is in him.

    The title Lord - Yah put on the person to do this is Yehoshua, as we see first with Yehoshua son of Nun, then Yehoshua son of Yehozadek, and then Yehoshua son of Yoseph.
    As a Rabbinic Jew by definition you've already rejected David in the form of Yehoshua, this was expected...

    Now the question is can you accept the promised return for the Messianic Age or as prophesied, most are removed before it into the Lake of Fire (Deuteronomy 29:19-26, Zechariah 13:8-9), and only those who accept the Marvelous Work of the Lord will be here after?
    Isaiah 40:10 Behold, the Lord Yahweh will come as a mighty one, and his arm will rule for him. Behold, his reward is with him, and his recompense before him.

    The Arm is the Messiah as already shown by fulfilled prophecy.

    Isaiah 62:11 Behold, Yahweh has proclaimed to the end of the earth, “Say to the daughter of Zion, ‘Behold, your salvation comes. Behold, his reward is with him, and his recompense before him.’”

    Symbolically referring to Yeshua being the Salvation of God returning to our people.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  7. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    There is no sin problem. There is sin and there are paths towards repentance and forgiveness. This has nothing to do with "savior". And certainly nothing to do with a messiah.
     
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  8. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    God will lead his people as a shepherd and then will appoint a human leader (from the line of David) as a leader. Sort of like how he led them out of Egypt and eventually gave them a king. Same thing here. What's the question?
     
  9. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Again, you miss that these are the words (and perception) of the OTHER nations. They recognize that there was no cause for their oppression of Israel. As the Ibn Ezra writes, "The heathen nations oppress Israel without cause; he neither deserves such ill-treatment, by any wrong act nor by any ambiguous, deceitful word." We could discuss the violence done by Jesus which would invalidate him from this, but that's for another time.
     
  10. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Discussed elsewhere. Dismissed there as well.

    And so? BTW, not "yah" just the letter Yud. Additionally, the letter Hey is added to names well before that to include God. And the Yud is part of a name to indicate God before that as well.
    You mean in your opinion. And your opinion is wrong. But go with that -- it keeps you amused.
     
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  11. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    Your questions are honestly kind of weird. It's equivalent to saying, "How could Lamentations 1:2 be speaking about a city? Cities don't cry! It's obviously speaking about a woman." Which would be ridiculous, since Lam. 1:1 specifically says that the subject is a city.

    What it comes down to is that you're reading metaphorical prose but taking it's descriptions literally. Cities do not cry, but the city is a metaphor for the downtrodden nation. Likewise, Isa. 53 is referring to Israel as a singular individual as a metaphor while describing it's national history. There are many times when Isa. 53:8 was fulfilled, most recently about 70 years ago.
     
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  12. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    As the person sent from Heaven with the name of the Messiah before the Tribulation, this isn't optional; we put 'in my opinion' to be respectful of forum policy.

    God has told me, after Israel starts WW3, we will soon remove all people who do not get what we're discussing here...

    So we're literally giving everyone on this forum the opportunity to help save many religious people, who are currently facing the wrong way; if not they will be removed in the coming Holy Fire.
    The idea Rabbinic Jews deny David as the Messiah, as they're rewriting the text is not good enough....

    Explain what you do not understand of this, and we can discuss it?
    That is an interesting point that Hosea הושׁע H1954 becomes Yehoshua יהושׁע H3091, and it is only a yod difference... Which would then imply, the Lord 'shall deliver'.

    Which is the same as Exodus 3:14 אהיה H1961 that the Lord states it "shall become what shall become"; so it is an utterance as a memorial the same, that the Lord will deliver his promise through Yehoshua.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  13. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 53:9 New International Version (NIV)
    He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
    though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.

    The nation of Israel have not done no violence
    It promotes peaceful battles and diplomatic talks
    They were a bastion of a nation in harmony with its neighboring tribes and city states
    Who am I kidding???

    [​IMG]

    Deuteronomy 7:1-2 New International Version (NIV)

    When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girga****es, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you— and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.

    Greatest Battles in Ancient Israel and Biblical History Biblical Reference


    Battle of Rephidim Exodus 17 and Deuteronomy 25

    Battle of Hormah Numbers 14

    Battle of Jericho Joshua 5

    Battles of Ai Joshua 7 and 8

    Battle of Gibeon Joshua 10

    Battle of Shechem Joshua 8 and 9

    Battle of Zaphon Joshua 12

    Battle of Gibeah Judges 19-21

    Battle of Aphek 1 Samuel 4

    Battle of Mizpah 1 Samuel 7

    Battle of Jabesh-Gilead 1 Samuel 11

    Battle of Micmash 1 Samuel 13 and 14

    Battle of Amalek 1 Samuel 15

    Battle of Socoh 1 Samuel 17

    Battle of Keilah 1 Samuel 23

    Battle of Mount Gilboa 1 Samuel 28 and 1 Chronicles 10

    Battle of Mahanaim 2 Samuel 4

    Battle of Rabbah 2 Samuel 10 and 1 Chronicles 19 and 20

    Battle of Ramoth-Gilead 1 Kings 22 and 2 Chronicles 18 and 19

    Battle of Samaria 2 Kings 6 and 7

    Battle of Elath 2 Kings 16 and 2 Chronicles 28

    Assyrian Invasion 2 Kings 15 and 17

    Egyptian Invasion 1 Kings 14 and 2 Chronicles 12

    Defeat of the Cu****es (Ethiopians) 2 Chronicles 14

    Battle of Zoar 2 Kings 8 and 2 Chronicles 21

    Battle of the Valley of Salt 2 Kings 12 and 14 and 2 Chronicles 24 and 25

    Rebellion in Gaza 2 Kings 18

    Battle of Lachish 2 Kings 18 and 19, 2 Chronicles 32, and Isaiah 36 and 37

    Battle of Jezreel Valley 2 Kings 23 and 2 Chronicles 35

    Fall of Jerusalem to Babylon 2 Kings 25, 2 Chronicles 36, Jeremiah 52, and Daniel 1

    Battle of Mount Zemaraim 2 Chronicles 13

    Battle of Beth-Shemesh 2 Chronicles 25

    Isn't that great?
    Israel is victorious because God is at their side.
    But of course, there is blood in their hands.
    That is the cost of victory.
    upload_2019-4-12_20-9-55.jpeg

    though he had done no violence?
    Nah. Jesus wasn't that violent.

    He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
    he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.

     
  14. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Sure, I am aware of methaphors - how about Abel's blood crying

    I have compared the verse in Isa 53 with the New Testament bible to justify that this line is comparable with what happen to the Lord Jesus Christ. Now as a Jew could you do the same but matching this Isa 53 verse with the Old Testament bible?

    Isaiah 53:8 New International Version (NIV)
    By oppression and judgment he was taken away. John 19:16
    Yet who of his generation protested? Luke 23:21
    For he was cut off from the land of the living; Mark 15:39
    for the transgression of my people he was punished. 1 Peter 3:18

    If you could not - then I believe Isa 53:8 is really refers for Jesus Christ and no other man and no other thing.

     
  15. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    What you are asking sounds a little ridiculous. I've just explained to you that this chapter is reporting on our national history (from the perspective of the non-Jewish leaders of the world during the Messianic age per the OP). This chapter is a description of the last 2,000 years of Jewish history. Well after the Tanach was sealed. Your question should have been asking me to compare these verses with Jewish history, which I can do.

    Alternatively, if you prefer I can fabricate a book about a semi-historical figure and then compare events in that book to these verses here to see if that book I wrote was telling the truth.
     
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  16. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    If your choice is going to be to ignore what I wrote and just stamp your feet and swamp the thread with long winded rants then there is nothing I can do for you. As I stated, you misunderstand the verses and Jesus committed violent acts. He also cried out on the cross so, so much for "he didn't open his mouth."
     
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  17. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Great battles are part of the national narrative, but Israel couldn't field any large armies. Jericho was felled repeatedly by earthquakes over a period of 10,000 years.

    Look at Joshua's battles as skirmishes.. Israel didn't kill all the Canaanites.. In the very next chapter (Judges) they are still living alongside the Canaanites.
     
  18. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Please do continue...
     
  19. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Israel has a mouth?
    Jesus Christ has a mouth.
    What does "he didn't open his mouth" mean?



    Sure the Lord Jesus Christ did cry out in a loud voice on the cross. But what does the bible mean by "he did not open his mouth" while being oppressed, afflicted like a lamb to the slaughter??? Let another English version of the Bible explain it:

    upload_2019-4-12_21-36-9.jpeg

    Isaiah 53:7 Amplified Bible (AMP)

    He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
    Yet He did not open His mouth [to complain or defend Himself];
    Like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
    And like a sheep that is silent before her shearers,
    So He did not open His mouth.


    So there were no violence in these battles?

    Isaiah 53:9 New International Version (NIV)
    He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
    though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.

    [​IMG]

    Joshua 8:24 New International Version (NIV)
    When Israel had finished killing all the men of Ai in the fields and in the wilderness where they had chased them, and when every one of them had been put to the sword, all the Israelites returned to Ai and killed those who were in it.

    So Israel has done violence, because it had to in obedience to God's commands.
    And as such Isaiah 53:7 disqualifies Israel from being identified as the object of Isa 53
     
  20. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    With?
     
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