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Featured Isaiah 53 Suffering Servant

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by sooda, Apr 9, 2019.

  1. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    It is my position that on Isa 53, it is about Jesus Christ because on every line - he has already accomplished.

    Also it couldn't be the ancient Israel or the modern Israel because the circumstances prevailing then and now is not suitable and does not allow that Isa 53 points to Israel. Israel had done violence, and it had to while the object in Isa 53 says he had done no violence. That alone removes Israel from the picture.

    Isaiah's audience is the Jewish people? God's words are for all people. Isaiah's readers are from his time to the ends of the world, from Israel in 8th century BCE to the present time with the islands of the sea.

    Isaiah 42:10 New International Version (NIV)
    Sing to the Lord a new song,
    his praise from
    the ends of the earth,
    you who go down to the sea, and all that is in it,
    you islands, and all who live in them.

    and we are at the ends of the earth [time]
    and I am in living in the islands
    and I am joining in singing to the Lord a new song.
    ---- again Isaiah's prophecy fulfilled, when God told him to write that

    There are prophecies in Isaiah there that speaks of not only Christ Jesus but other people, God will send.

    Isaiah 40:3 New International Version (NIV)
    A voice of one calling:
    “In the wilderness prepare
    the way for the Lord;
    make straight in the desert
    a highway for our God.

    After 700 or so years....
    [​IMG]

    John 1:22-23 New International Version (NIV)

    Finally they said, “Who are you? Give us an answer to take back to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?”

    John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, “I am the voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way for the Lord.’”

    If the words and the description fits, then we have a winner.

    I have to acknowledge that Isaiah 52:1-12 speaks of Zion and the daughter of Zion
    It speaks of a future time and now we have Isa 52:13-15

    Isaiah 52:13-15 New International Version (NIV)

    See, my servant will act wisely;
    he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
    Just as there were many who were appalled at him—
    his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being
    and his form marred beyond human likeness—
    so he will sprinkle many nations,
    and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
    For what they were not told, they will see,
    and what they have not heard, they will understand.

    We would examine if I am barking up the wrong tree or I'm doing something else.

    upload_2019-4-13_8-45-39.jpeg

    Joke
    As you could see, I have colored the words -my servant will act wisely
    If servant Israel will act wisely, then the servant mentioned in Isa 52:13-15 is Israel, hence not human despite of the fact of succeeding underlined words like his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being

    Let us see if my servant, Israel, will act wisely - was Isaiah and the Lord God points to the nation?
    Isaiah lived in the 8th century BCE fast forward to Daniel who lived in the 6th century BCE - that is 200 years or so later. He wrote:

    Daniel 9:11-20 New International Version (NIV)
    All Israel has transgressed your law and turned away, refusing to obey you.

    “Therefore the curses and sworn judgments written in the Law of Moses, the servant of God, have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against you. You have fulfilled the words spoken against us and against our rulers by bringing on us great disaster. Under the whole heaven nothing has ever been done like what has been done to Jerusalem. Just as it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come on us, yet we have not sought the favor of the Lord our God by turning from our sins and giving attention to your truth. The Lord did not hesitate to bring the disaster on us, for the Lord our God is righteous in everything he does; yet we have not obeyed him.

    “Now, Lord our God, who brought your people out of Egypt with a mighty hand and who made for yourself a name that endures to this day, we have sinned, we have done wrong. Lord, in keeping with all your righteous acts, turn away your anger and your wrath from Jerusalem, your city, your holy hill. Our sins and the iniquities of our ancestors have made Jerusalem and your people an object of scorn to all those around us.

    “Now, our God, hear the prayers and petitions of your servant. For your sake, Lord, look with favor on your desolate sanctuary. Give ear, our God, and hear; open your eyes and see the desolation of the city that bears your Name. We do not make requests of you because we are righteous, but because of your great mercy. Lord, listen! Lord, forgive! Lord, hear and act! For your sake, my God, do not delay, because your city and your people bear your Name.”

    While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the Lord my God for his holy hill—

    --------

    Did servant Israel acted wisely? According to Daniel, Israel has transgressed your law and turned away, refusing to obey you


    This brings us to the life of the Lord Jesus Christ...

    Acts 3:12-14 New International Version (NIV)
    When Peter saw this, he said to them: “Fellow Israelites, why does this surprise you? Why do you stare at us as if by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk? The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you.


    1 Peter 2:21-23 New International Version (NIV)
    To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.


    “He committed no sin,
    and no deceit was found in his mouth.”


    When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly.

    I believe Jesus Christ acted wisely.
     
  2. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    @MJFlores,

    Thank you for this. I wish u were here reading your post over my shoulder.

    There i was, reading your very mature scholarly reply on my phone. Scrolling.... Scrolling ....

    Then..

    Bam.

    Little Amos tending the sycamore .. Good boy, Amos. :D

    HAH!

    That was awesome. Thanks buddy...
     
  3. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Every thing....
    upload_2019-4-13_9-25-18.jpeg
    Good day to you.
     
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  4. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    One of the reasons I would not take it as Israel would be the historical Psalms 78 and Psalm 106 which are very frank and put Israel is a pretty unflattering light, falling away from God and not being faithful. I think the plain view is that those Psalms portray Israel's history as needy and in need of redemption from sin.... but we all are.

    In contrast a figure emerges in Psalm 78, The figure has parables. Jesus has parables and his life is a parable. Jesus taught in parables but even his life recapitulated the history of Israel but getting it right being sinless

    And so in a sense I would agree the servant songs at times can be Jesus, the church in Christ and the Israel of God (believing Israel, which has overlap with physical Israel) But Isaiah 53 most strongly represents Jesus.
     
    #204 whirlingmerc, Apr 12, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
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  5. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    Clearly the gospel writers believed Jesus fulfilled Isaiah 53
    the four gospels, Luke, Peter and Paul all were convinced of that


    Matthew 8:17 Carried our diseases (Isaiah 53:4)

    Mark 15:28 Numbered with transgressors (Isaiah 53:12)

    John 12:38 Who has believed our report? (Isaiah 53:1)

    Luke 22:37 Numbered with transgressors (Isaiah 53:12)

    Acts 8:32 A lamb to the slaughter (Isaiah 53:7)

    Romans 10:16 Who has believed our report? (Isaiah 53:1)

    1Peter 2:22 He committed no sin (Isaiah 53:9)

    1Peter 2:24 By his stripes you were healed (Isaiah 53:5)


    How exactly do you believe Israel 'carried' our diseases?

    In Luke 7:22, Luke 17:25 Mark 8:31 Matt 17:21 Jesus says he will be rejected, suffer, die and overcome death which is an outline of Isaiah 53 so it appears Jesus viewed himself as going to be a fulfillment of Is 53
     
    #205 whirlingmerc, Apr 12, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
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  6. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    The Arm of the Lord, like the Salvation of the Lord is God interacting with mankind; the Messiah by definition is God's interaction with mankind.

    Psalms 89:20-21 I have found David, my servant. I have anointed him with my holy oil, (21) with whom my hand shall be established. My arm will also strengthen him.

    Isaiah 40:10-11 Behold, the Lord Yahweh will come as a mighty one, and his arm will rule for him. Behold, his reward is with him, and his recompense before him. (11) He will feed his flock like a shepherd. He will gather the lambs in his arm, and carry them in his bosom. He will gently lead those who have their young.


    Isaiah 51:5 My righteousness is near. My salvation has gone out, and my arms will judge the peoples. The islands will wait for me, and they will trust my arm.
    The word shouldn't be blemished in Isaiah 52:14, it is anointed; with the additional yod in the Dead Sea Scrolls it is even clearer, it is mistranslated.
    It is to catch out the hypocrites who like 'the Passion of Christ'; so Isaiah 53:1 Rumor interlinks the Arm of the Lord revealed in Isaiah 28:9-21, Rumor to Rumor in the Bed of Adultery.

    A Christian accepts John, Paul, and Simon who tell them to interpret Isaiah 53, like it is a free gift, and it isn't, as it has tons of additional contexts most overlook.

    Basically the whole thing is to make a Snare (Isaiah 8) to catch out 'those who are quick to the spoils, and who hasten to the prey'; it shall remove all the Ravenous beings in a single day.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
    #206 wizanda, Apr 13, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
  7. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 53 and the afflicted Hezekiah – A Historical ...
    April 20, 2017 – A Historical Commentary on the Book of Judithisaiah-53-and-the...
    Apr 20, 2017 · Isaiah 53 and the afflicted Hezekiah ... Hezekiah seems to fit Isaiah 53 ... If this series is correct in its view that Isaiah 53 refers to King Hezekiah of Judah, though, then “Deutero-Isaiah” is in a lot of trouble, now being quite anomalous.
     
  8. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    53:7 When his sickness was at its worst, [Hezekiah] acknowledged the justice of the LORD’s judgment upon him, but like a dumb man who did not open his mouth, he expected from hour to hour the moment of his death, as he declares himself in his writing (Isaiah 38:9): I said in the cutting off of my days, let me go through the gates of death, etc, and accepted his afflictions as sent upon him in love, without murmuring, or complaining of the shortness of his days. ….
     
  9. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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  10. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    The word 'marred' is mistranslated, it should be 'anointed'... Which then paraphrased David in Psalms 89:19-21.

    Isaiah 52:14 Just as many were astonished by him, for I anointed him more than others appearance, and his form more than a son of man.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
    #210 wizanda, Apr 13, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
  11. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Who Is Hezekiah? - Mesu Andrews
    Who is Abijah? - Mesu Andrewshezekiah
    His son, Ahaz, and grandson, Hezekiah, would surely have noticed. Hezekiah’s father, Ahaz, became king when he was twenty years old and only reigned sixteen years. His wickedness and idolatry is legendary. He was the first Judean king to sacrifice his son in a pagan altar fire, and he destroyed nearly everything Jotham and Uzziah had built.
     
  12. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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  13. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Isn't he talking about the king whose visage was marred by Leprosy?


    1. UZZIAH - From Royalty To Leprosy - Christian Library
      www.christianlibrary.org/.../John_L_Kachelman_Jr/kings-ot/uzziah.html
      UZZIAH – From Royalty To Leprosy 2 Chronicles 26. 1. Our lesson focuses on one of the most successful Kings of the Southern Kingdom. His name literally means “Jehovah is strength” and his life illustrates the meaning of his name.

    2. THE KING WHO BECAME A LEPER | Apostolic Faith, West ...
      apostolicfaithweca.org/content/king-who-became-leper
      the king who became a leper [ 2 Chronicles:26:1-23 [1] Then all the people of Judah took Uzziah, who was sixteen years old, and made him king in the room of his father Amaziah. [2] He built Eloth, and restored it to Judah, after that the king slept with his fathers.
     
  14. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    It does not say marred, it doesn't say disfigured, it says anointed.
    Like literally it is talking about the Messiah David, as it paraphrases Psalms 98:19-21; this is like some sick joke where the builders have rejected the Messiah, and inevitably will cause global destruction, with people just repeating the same fallacies.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  15. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Do you read Hebrew? I don't.
     
  16. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah is talking about the Jewish King Uzzaiah who was disfigured by leprosy.
     
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  17. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    The Suffering Servant was Israel.

    The passage equates Israel with a former contemporary of Isaiah, King Uzziah, who was disfigured, suffered and died of leprosy.

    From there he believed Israel would one day redeem itself and become a leader among nations. It was a failed prophecy.

    Isaiah lived about 700 years before Christ but scholars are sure that chapters forty and after were written by an unnamed author after the Babylonian exile 586 BCE.

    Even at the later date, who thinks 400 years into the future? The author was addressing the times in which he lived. He didn't have to name Uzziah because it was understood by his contemporaries. That explains why most of the passage was written in past tense. Some historical background is necessary.

    The life of Uzziah is covered in 2 Chronicles 26, and in 2 Kings 15:1-6 under the name of Azariah. He was king of Judah living in Jerusalem. According to Chronicles, he reigned for 52 years from the age of sixteen. The early part of his life is described as successful in terms of personal prosperity, piety and war. Eventually, his pride led to his destruction when he entered the temple to burn incense.

    Burning incense in the temple is reserved for consecrated priests. To understand the perceived severity of this violation, Leviticus 10:1-2 tells of when two of Aaron's sons made an unholy fire Yahweh struck them dead with what sounds like lightening.
     
  18. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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  19. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Are any of your translatorson RF Hebrew scholars ?

    The use of the term "Israel" has a double meaning: Israel and Judah.

    According to The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, this passage was written after the Babylonian exile 586 BCE, when Judah was defeated and the top echelon deported to Babylon. Because the exile occurred well after the time of Isaiah, the author is unknown.

    It looks like the writer is pretending to be the real Isaiah; so he writes as if he is living in Isaiah's time. When he uses "Israel," he means Judah-Uzziah was a Judaic king. In the verse below, Israel is defined as Yahweh's servant; so I'll stay with "Israel."

    3And he said to me, "You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified." (Isa. 49:3)
     
  20. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Jesus was never described as ugly and he was not despised of men.

    Isaiah's Suffering Servant

    He grew up like a young plant without comeliness and beauty. -Past tense. Jesus was not recorded as being ugly; but a man with leprosy would fit that description.

    2For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or comeliness that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him.(Isa. 53:2)

    He was despised and rejected, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief, without being esteemed. -Past tense. Strong's Dictionary interprets "grief" as the Hebrew choliy for disease. Uzziah was quarantined as an outcast.

    3He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.(Isa. 53:3)

    He has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows, yet we esteemed his affliction from God. -Past tense. Leviticus describes leprosy as an affliction.

    4Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.(Isa. 53:4)

    9"When a man is afflicted with leprosy, he shall be brought to the priest; (Lev. 13:9)

    He was wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our iniquities. -Past tense.

    5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed.(Isa. 53:5)

    We have gone astray like sheep, and Yahweh made him pay for our iniquity. -Present tense.
     
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