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Is there a single shred of evidence against naturalism?

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You and I must have very different definitions of the word metaphor.
In which case, you may wish to consider why I'm saying what I am. Metaphors are "as if" statements, but people mistake the finger pointing at the moon as the moon itself. When a metaphor becomes a descriptor of reality, it becomes a "dead metaphor". When you understand that all of language is a pointer, a pattern we superimpose on something in order to attempt to understand it, you see that all of language itself is metaphor, not just certain phrases here and there. And that is the point in the "bigger picture" I'm getting at here.

If you care to understand a little more of why I'm saying what I am, you may take some time exploring that understanding in this discussion:

Basically I am saying that observable reality might be real and might not but whether it is or not it is best to act as if it is real.
This assume that how we talk about reality can be understood by the human mind "as is", bypassing all the linguistic structures we use. At best, all of reality is still a "mediated reality" through these things. If you imagine we can actually figure it out with the mind and know it as is, then you'd have to explain how that is possible given the facts of the nature of language. When you say "This is the way it is", you now are pointing at your own mind and not the world.

I see no reason or need to do so for anything else.
The reason to do so is to be open to what lays beyond the current constraints of your adopted models of reality as reality itself. The reason is exploring reality beyond just your current conventions, like looking at the same diamond in a multitude of different light angles striking it. I prefer that over yet just another belief system we think represents reality as it is. That's a mistake of the mind to approach it with that goal that it can, and ends up missing what reality can be. That's why.
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
I got a question about naturalism and here is where it could answer the OP's question and that it produces a too skeptical a view (if the answer is no). If I can state that my cognitive or belief-producing faculties — memory, perception, logical insight, etc. are reliable and can be trusted, then am I still a naturalist? Many other people share the same view that I can trust myself based on the evidence that others support something existing, as well, so that is why I ask.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Is there any reason other than faith to believe in the soul, god, gods, pretty much any spiritual concept?

I used @1137 's thing to make my own thing. It's like hijacking a thread but instead of actually hijacking it we built a very similar thread right next door.
Naturalism doesn't hold that the soul or gods necessarily don't exist; naturalism holds that if these things exist, they should be considered "natural".
 

Lorgar-Aurelian

Active Member
My first post was "I understand this, and solipsism is the default position." How is this a problem?



Says the guy who won't even open scientific studies I send him, whose too petrified to debate my position personally even if I lay it out from him, and who refuses to support his position in any way, shape, or form other than claim making!
Can I have scientific studies?
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Funny how I said I wanted to leave the conversation on the other thread, before you posted such nonsense.

Either
A) You know you are being illogical in which case I cannot help you.

or B) You do not care that you are being illogical in which case I cannot help you.

I do know that you like to throw around insults, use logical fallacies, and try to deceive people and I doubt I am the only one.

So go have fun but when I decide to back out of a conversation because I have had enough of YOU I don't want you claiming it was because of some piece of "evidence" you had or because you "won" a debate.

If you want to actually have a one on one Skype debate where I know you are not doing anything for publicity and you cannot hide behind a computer screen when you insult me then we can do that.

Baring that I am not going to talk to you anymore on this topic except correcting you when you try to deceive others like you did before because you are unrewarding to talk to about this topic, your attitude when debating about this is toxic, and this causes me large amounts of stress with no intellectual stimulation that I enjoy from talking to most other members about these things. Given that I am in the middle of finals week I really do not need even more stress right now.

So in short, can we just end this conversation now or move it to Skype?

A simple solution is a private message debate, which I will happily agree too. Unfortunately my religion does not allow me to show my face or name for precaution, even if a bit paranoid. But a PM is private and so would not be for publicity. Plus my laptops camera is broken :(
 

CogentPhilosopher

Philosophy Student
A simple solution is a private message debate, which I will happily agree too. Unfortunately my religion does not allow me to show my face or name for precaution, even if a bit paranoid. But a PM is private and so would not be for publicity. Plus my laptops camera is broken :(

Okay. I will do a PM debate.

On one condition.

We both give our word to not use personal insults in the debate, it is getting us nowhere good.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Okay. I will do a PM debate.

On one condition.

We both give our word to not use personal insults in the debate, it is getting us nowhere good.

I agree, but real life is garbage right now. If I break the rule just call me out.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
I want to publicly apologize to @CogentPhilosopher for my aggression these past 24 hours. As some know I have trouble regulating life stress with forum interaction, but am working on it. Anyways, I look forward to speaking with him one on one, and recognize him as an obviously intelligent individual.
 

CogentPhilosopher

Philosophy Student
I want to publicly apologize to @CogentPhilosopher for my aggression these past 24 hours. As some know I have trouble regulating life stress with forum interaction, but am working on it. Anyways, I look forward to speaking with him one on one, and recognize him as an obviously intelligent individual.

Yeah, I was not a pillar of self-control either.

I let my frustration get the better of me and it is entirely my fault.

Also @1137 has shown that he is in fact willing to debate in a logical fashion so I was wrong about his motives, to be honest it was not very skeptical of me to assume those and I apologize for that.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Is there any reason other than faith to believe in the soul, god, gods, pretty much any spiritual concept?
All beliefs are based upon faith. In fundamental physics (i.e., the standard model of particle physics and cosmology), certain conservation laws that used to be based upon empirical evidence were elevated to "axioms" of faith, and we attribute to faith the idea that the would-be vacuum is the source of all matter and energy (which our theories generally tell us our infinitely wrong, but because subtracting infinities and other renormalization methods yield apparently accurate results, we declare to be astoundingly accurate). We use faith in the notion of symmetry and mathematical elegance and faith in the notion that there exists an objective reality we can discover without the need of any designer that is so finely-tuned we sometimes posit there exists uncountably infinitely-many universes in order to account for the apparently designed nature of the universe in which we find ourselves.
We profess an unholy, illogical faith in the p-values of null hypothesis significance testing despite no real formal nor empirical basis. We profess a faith in scientific research as distinguished from the "research" of pseudoscience based upon a faith in a mythical scientific method and a false conceptualization as to how we actual scientists work compared with the methods used in various pseudosciences.
And, for the non-specialist, virtually the entirety of all knowledge is mostly wrong and to the extent it would be or is correct it is based upon the faith of specialists possessing the knowledge and the ability to accurately report specialist knowledge to the layperson.
I haven't, in general, found that most people are capable of defending the position that the Earth circles the moon (actually, it doesn't in any meaningful way, but nevermind) or that the Earth is even round (at least based upon any arguments which don't rely upon appeals to authority).
I think the starting point on any attempt to move beyond faith must be grounded in the acceptance of the mind as somehow singular, causally efficacious, and able to interact in some sense with an external reality.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No it's not an assumption, it can be objectively demonstrated.
It point of fact, it cannot be. This is not merely because of the problems of the nature of objectivity at a fundamental physical level. It is because of the state of neuroscience in relation to cognition and consciousness research. Currently, we can't demonstrate that there exists a temporal vs. rate neural code, and consciousness research in neuroscience usually implicitly assumes dualism in e.g., Libet's famous experiments. Standard methods in neuroscience have shown statistically significant neuronal reactions to semantic stimuli by a dead fish.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I believe both "soul" and "god" are easily understood within the theory of forms, which itself seems rather sound so far as I can tell. [

Sorry, but Aristotelianism hasn't been credible for centuries.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
What are natural laws? If our understanding of what's natural is incomplete, and gods somehow fit into that natural law, would you still be a naturalist? Do you think everything is made of "physical" things, aka able to be studied by physical science or explained solely by physical processes?

Natural laws are simply consistent, testable patterns. If deities are described by such laws, then they are natural. And yes, I think that all things can be understood via such laws and are thereby 'physical'.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Sorry, but Aristotelianism hasn't been credible for centuries.

Another great refutation.

Natural laws are simply consistent, testable patterns. If deities are described by such laws, then they are natural. And yes, I think that all things can be understood via such laws and are thereby 'physical'.

So it's a preconceived notion of yours that natural = physical?

The fact that I can be surprised shows that solipsism is wrong.

Uh.... wut? You don't actually believe that do you?
 
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