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Is there a single shred of evidence against naturalism?

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Here is the problem after this, you can never know for certain that the reality you perceive is real. But if it is not real then what else is there to act on? As there is no alternative it is best to act as if it is real. Whether the reality our senses pick up is real or not can not be certain.
This is a key understanding here. What we model reality to be, which we then act upon, is in fact us interacting with our metaphors to describe reality. You said it right there, "It is best to act as if it is real". As-if statements are metaphors. Naturalism, is a metaphor, just as much as theism is.

When you assume that how you think about reality defines what reality is in itself, you are making the same error of thinking as those before you historically who imagined as they looked up at the night sky that gods were up there. They interacted with it "as if" it were real, and it served a true and genuine model of reality for them to operate within. You look up at the night sky at the tent you see, the model of reality you superimpose upon it, is a scientific one. You imagine that the "evidence" we have that supports our models actually defines it's genuine and true nature, just as the ancients saw gods. They had their supports as well.

It's all metaphor. It's all "as if" it were reality. And as such, when they function for those who use that language, they are valid, even if less or more useful depending on the requirements.

Now from this point I can see no evidence to suggest that there is anything else demanding or suggesting for me to believe in it apart from what we can perceive in reality and the things that we know act on our perceivable reality.
What you perceive in reality in fact will be limited by the models of reality you use and engage with. As an example, if you don't know how to see a "ghost" because you've never encountered one, if you saw one your mind would not allow it because there is no mental model of one you could associate it with. What your mind would see might be "an old woman", or something it could try to connect it with. So, to others where that was part of their mental 'vocabulary', they would see it.

In other words, even if you were looking straight at it, you might not see it because your mind disallowed it.

If you have some evidence that we should add belief other than that I would be very happy to see it.
If you have an experience that does not fit your current mental models of truth and reality, that becomes a reason to explore beyond them.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
The fact that we cannot, in any direct, scientific, physical way access the internal experience of a single thing outside ourselves, rather clearly suggests that these things are not physical.
No, it doesn't.

And physicalism has not come close to finding any magical mechanism by which consciousness comes from unconscious material.
Conciousness is unquestionably the result of physical, natural processes. What makes conciousness so particular to you that it cannot be a physical process itself?
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
So you ask for evidence against naturalism and get an unrefuted, basically untouched paragraph in the first hour.
Refuted. Also your paragraph provided no evidence.

You ask for evidence for physicalism and three pages in there's nothing even close to support for it. Fascinating.
It's about three pages of people pointing out the flaws in the OP and your reasoning.

Fascinating indeed.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
Is there any reason other than faith to believe in the soul, god, gods, pretty much any spiritual concept?

I used @1137 's thing to make my own thing. It's like hijacking a thread but instead of actually hijacking it we built a very similar thread right next door.

Define 'faith.'

There is ALWAYS a reason to believe something. Always. It may not be what anybody else thinks is a GOOD one, but there is always a reason.

Suppose I told you that coatylekr really means 'the state of having your peanut butter toast fall upside down in the morning and having your dog steal it and there isn't any more peanut butter."

Now I have a reason to believe that coatylekr means that, because, well....I invented the concept and I can. YOU have a reason to believe it because, well, I told you that's what it means. May not be a good reason, but it's a reason.

Good heavens. We ALL believe rather important things because of silly reasons; shoot, I believe that calculus works for exactly the same silly reason you might believe coatylekr means all that about peanut butter toast. Someone told me. I personally am in absolutely no position to test it out for myself, being insanely mathematically challenged.

In fact, most of what we modern humans understand about the world comes from the word of other people; people we trust. We hope that what they tell us is true, of course, and we go on with our lives as if what we are told is cold hard fact...but the reason we do so is......someone told us so.

So what's the difference between my acceptance of the worth of calculus and someone else's acceptance of 'the soul, god, gods, pretty much any spiritual concept?" The fact that YOU approve of the reason?

Pish tosh.

For one thing, 'faith' isn't belief. It's not the reason for belief. It's the action we take BECAUSE of belief.

Belief itself is simply what we think about something.

What you are really asking is...are the reasons for believing these things good enough? Well, perhaps they are not, to you, but the topic is really about the reasons, not about the belief or what is done about it (faith).

As for me, I'm a theist, a Christian and a Mormon, in that categorical descent, so of course *I* think there are good reasons for believing these things. I'm not in charge of the opinions of anybody else in this matter, though. ;)
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
First you doubt everything even your own thoughts, after all everything that you see or think could be false or deceptions.

But in order to be deceived or have false thoughts, something that means that "you" must exist and be having thoughts. So therefore you are a thinking thing. That you can be 100% for sure of.

Here is the problem after this, you can never know for certain that the reality you perceive is real. But if it is not real then what else is there to act on? As there is no alternative it is best to act as if it is real. Whether the reality our senses pick up is real or not can not be certain.

Now from this point I can see no evidence to suggest that there is anything else demanding or suggesting for me to believe in it apart from what we can perceive in reality and the things that we know act on our perceivable reality.

If you have some evidence that we should add belief other than that I would be very happy to see it.

Just ask his opinion on Descartes...
 
So you ask for evidence against naturalism and get an unrefuted, basically untouched paragraph in the first hour. You ask for evidence for physicalism and three pages in there's nothing even close to support for it. Fascinating.

Ok, for the gallery, and the masochists -

First, solipsism isn't the default position, it's a ludicrously outlandish position, and here is why;
We understand how senses work. The mechanisms are understood to us, and they report exactly as we would expect if there was a physical, external world. Each individual serves as a running experiment to test that theory, and the results are overwhelmingly conclusive. Literally billions of redundant, independent tests.

That the world is 'out there' is proven conclusively, mathematically, as well as being a theory that has been open to falsification since man first began to think.

From another angle, one asserting solipsism must account for all of this data in some other manner, to which 'it all in your mind' becomes less and less tenable as data is added.

So, now that that's killed I'll move on to what he has posited as his arguments against.

- "I don't like the term "naturalism" in this sense, as it seems to imply physical = natural, which puts the cart before the horse"
Of course what is physical is natural, because it occurs , demonstrably, within the natural world. However, the assertion that everything natural must be physical is not necessary, nobody is making it, so it can be disregarded.

- the axiomatic self
This is not a problem for, and is indeed predicted by and necessary to materialism.

-property dualism
Emergent properties are predicted by materialism

-two way causality
That the mind can cause anything is not in evidence. That the mind is an observer phenomenon is equally as likely, if not more so.

-the absurd claim that we can be more certain of matter than our own existence.
A claim that nobody is making.

-"The fact that we cannot, in any direct, scientific, physical way access the internal experience of a single thing outside ourselves, rather clearly suggests that these things are not physical. "
Again, not a problem if consciousness is an emergent effect.

-"And physicalism has not come close to finding any magical mechanism by which consciousness comes from unconscious material."
No, but there are mountains of evidence that brain states effect consciousness. Counter evidence pending.
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
Is there any reason other than faith to believe in the soul, god, gods, pretty much any spiritual concept?

I used @1137 's thing to make my own thing. It's like hijacking a thread but instead of actually hijacking it we built a very similar thread right next door.

I would think religion, science and experience would explain the spiritual concept. Christianity is one religion that explains it. Psychology is a science that can explain it. Creation science can explain it for hard sciences. Experience can explain it if you have experienced it. Why does one need faith besides believing in God or no God? What does faith mean to you as a naturalist (sorry I'm just jumping in here so do not know what has been discussed previously)? Why doesn't it require faith to believe what you believe?

EDIT: My two key questions are in bold. Can I remain a young earth creationist and be a naturalist, i.e. there are no conflicts?
 
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jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
I understand this, and solipsism is the default position.

It may be the first assumption - but it's quickly washed away shortly after infancy when we realize and recognize that other beings do, in fact, exist independent of ourselves.

The fact that all of these similar creatures, typing out words on very similar devices at this very moment, reciting opposing individual thoughts to our own, should be pretty solid evidence that solipsism is a very juvenile position.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Is there any reason other than faith to believe in the soul, god, gods, pretty much any spiritual concept?

I used @1137 's thing to make my own thing. It's like hijacking a thread but instead of actually hijacking it we built a very similar thread right next door.

I'm open to materialism if compelling evidence should ever arise, but I remain skeptical meanwhile!
 

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
I'm open to materialism if compelling evidence should ever arise, but I remain skeptical meanwhile!
Says the man who just typed these words on a keyboard (or touchscreen).

I suggest that all anti-materialists take a good hard look at all of the things that currently surround them, wherever they are, and consider what those things are made of...
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Says the man who just typed these words on a keyboard (or touchscreen).

I suggest that all anti-materialists take a good hard look at all of the things that currently surround them, wherever they are, and consider what those things are made of...

You have to understand that to most people, science, and its technological applications, are no different than magic, and no more considered or examined.
 

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
You have to understand that to most people, science, and its technological applications, are no different than magic, and no more considered or examined.
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George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Indeed, many people "interpret" baseless evidence as fact. Of course, their motivations for doing so aren't unclear.
It's an area where only those with a razor sharp mind should dive. The rest will indeed cling to their prejudices.
 
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