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Featured Is the Good News As Presented in the Bible Snakeoil Salesmanship?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by thomas t, Mar 25, 2021.

  1. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    the moment the renewable ones were there noone cared.

    Well, the bet is all yours.
    If you say he was a carpenter, sounds pretty guilty... if you really think this in your heart... the risk that you're wrong is on you.
    Maybe God says: hey if they replant some trees that they chopped no problem...
    Also, there are carpenters who just do some refurbishing for old furniture for instance. We don't know what Jesus did, actually.
    Also, maybe they simply had enough trees back then. No climate problems and so on.

    So, it's your choice, as I see it.
     
  2. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    Thats not true, plenty of people cared.

    And maybe one day humans will clean up the earth, and God will say no problem.
    It requires new wood to refurbish old furniture, and anyhow old furniture was once new furniture, so you can't have old furniture without chopped trees.
    So you're Jesus is condemning us to hell on the basis of having the misfortune to be born into the 21st century? Why don't we have enough trees to go round, is it because of over population? Isn't it the Bible that says to be fruitful and multiply?
     
  3. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Who exactly is Jesus paying a ransom to by dying on a Roman cross?

    If God is omnipotent then why does he need to sacrifice his son to Roman authorities to pay off human sin debts?

    If God wanted forgiveness for humanity then why not just forgive from above and spare his son the torturous death?

    Who is God paying the debt to?

    The whole thing doesn't add up to anything sensible.
     
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  4. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    No, everyone is Not ' saved ' once they accept and proclaim.... according to Matthew 24:13
    Rather, the one who endures to the end is saved.
    Endure faithful to death, or found faithful at the soon coming ' time of separation ' on Earth as per Matthew 25:31-33,37.

    People seem to ignore that little word "IF" found at 1 John 1:7 "IF" we walk....
     
  5. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    What? Eh? Quoi?

    Are you seriously saying Jesus had to die so martyrs would feel better?

    Why do I keep getting the impression that you just devised that answer on the spot AND that you like me are clueless as to the actual reason, if there was one?
    He went out of his way to engineer his own death. He made dang sure he died. He refused to escape.

    As for "Victim blaming", first you have to have a victim, and Jesus was NOT a victim.
    If he did, he voluntarily and intentionally surrendered it.
    If you went anywhere, next pub, next right-wing rally, next cage-fighting tournament, IN ORDER TO MAKE SURE YOU GOT KILLED, you are NOT a victim and you ARE responsible for your own death.

    Note there is no question of illegality in the crucifixion, no suggestion that it was murder, no suggestion that it was improper.

    And that Jesus was only there because he wanted, intended, planned all along, to be there.

    Victim shmictim.


    And still neither you nor I have a clue why such a suicide was called for, or what it achieved.
     
    #85 blü 2, Mar 26, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2021
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  6. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Is the Good News As Presented in the Bible Snakeoil Salesmanship?

    For sure, and it also falls foul of advertising standards in as much as it presents itself as a religion of love whilst threatening massive hateful torturous consequences of any and all who do not comply with belief and action.

    That sure is snakeoil salesmanship.

    In one verse we can read about love and care but when it suits we are told to fear, as in verses which warn of what happens to unbelievers:-
    Matthew 10:34} Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not
    to send peace, but a sword. {10:35} For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. {10:36} And a man’s foes [shall be] they of his own
    household.

    Don't forget...... Jesus was prepared to kill thousands upon thousand of babies when it suited him. Well, he did if you believe that the bible is the all from Jesus, and about Jesus.
     
  7. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    Never blamed you, but nonetheless most of the religious wars involve the tribal religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Based on your opening post you apparently selectively ignore the violence and slavery of the Bible, and the history of Christianity.
     
  8. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    no, actually I don't.

    you blamed Christians in a generic statement. That was ridiculous.
     
  9. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    Let me cite the example of German journalist Günter Wallraff.
    All he does is "putting himself into harms way".
    Everything is exactly as planned as was Jesus's death on the cross.
    Each time, he makes it a story though. That's his job.
    One example: he dresses up as a black and takes part in a city tour. He books the tour, takes a seat and sits down. All of which is planned.
    And then all the "worried citizens" address him using racist slurs,
    Yet he planned the trip in every detail.

    He just went there showing up (as a black!) and this made people angry.
    That's all.

    He is not guilty of even one racist slur he recived.

    Before you start blaming him just for declining to escape the situation: no, he is not the one to be blamed for that idiotic racism in this country.
    Neither is Jesus for his death caused by people who cannot stand free speech. Same thing.
    Can I ask you one question before: are you serious in asking me that question? seriously?;)
    actually he was.
    Concerning the bolded passage: Jesus made sure everything was planned, very much in the way Günter Wallraff books his city tour to put himself into harm's way. And yet neither of them is guilty.
    Jesus had a right to life. Period.
    right to life. You can also blame Günter Wallraff for intentionally and voluntarily surrendering his right to go free from slurs.
    Wallraff isn't responsible for racism in this country either. He made it a topic, that's all.
    see my first point about Jesus giving comfort to martyrs.
    Martyrs also have a right to life.
     
  10. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    no, there is no snakeoil in the Gospel
    hateful? look at this:

    upload_2021-3-27_9-44-41.jpeg

    this is what people make of God's earth.
    I can understand when God is wrathful.

    The Canaanite children were saved from dying from starvation. A quick and sudden death was better, I suppose.
     
  11. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    I suppose it is this way: Jesus was paid a pay for his services on earth. Any workman merits the pay for his work according to Christian tradition.
    Gave that pay back to God the father to pay the ransom for humanity's sins, on condition that they believe in their hearts proclaiming Jesus as Lord, Romans 10:10.
     
  12. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Unless he does that with the intention and objective of being killed, he had no parallel with Jesus,
    That's a complete misrepresentation of the story. Jesus set out to be killed, rejected chances to not be killed, and was successful in being killed. He refused to escape, he used Judas (just as it says in Jesus Christ Superstar), he played the priests and Pilate to get what he wanted.
    The cause of Jesus' death is Jesus. If he hadn't wanted it, he could have avoided it. But no, dying was always his mission ─ I gave you the quotes in an earlier post, but here they are again:
    Mark 2:20; Mark 14:33-36; Matthew 26:18; Matthew 26:37-39; Luke 22:22; Luke 22:42; John 17:5; John 17:11; John 17:13.
    And Jesus voluntarily, purposely, intentionally renounced that right. No one else took it off him.
    Yes, I thought that was hilarious. Well done!
     
  13. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Thank you for your post , Thomas.
    Were sorting that out, and if God would decide to hate humanity because it makes mistakes then it is no benevolent God in my opinion.

    I was thinking of Egyptian children but mass killings for any reason would certainly tell us about any involved God .

    I believe in Jesus the Galilean handworker as described in the main body of G-Mark, I do, but he loved the working people that he lived beside (there was no middle class) and was prepared to pick up the Baptist's campaign and carry it forward , I have no problem with debating that very firmly. But the mixed messages of love/hate, of heaven/hell, or peace/war etc which Christianity preaches at whim and in such amazing self contradiction just leave me in amazement.
    :)
     
  14. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    the parallel is 100%, I think,
    Walraff set out to be harassed, he was "successful" in being harassed, as you would say. Since he sat down as a black in a city tour bus, people came to insult him. So he was very "successful". He also "used" the worried compatriots who insulted him. He had chances to get off the city tour bus anytime he wanted. But he stayed.
    100% the same story as Jesus's in this regard (planning and staying).


    The "cause" of all the insults he recieved was he himself, as you would say. He planned the video, he booked the tour, he entered the bus, sat down... and stayed!
    Walraff didn't have to book the tour and produce the vid. Yet by doing so he got into harms way, so you also would accuse him of "voluntarily, purposely, intentionally" renouncing that right of being free from harassment, it seems.

    So ... he "put himself into harms way" as you would say.

    This is all victim blaming at its best - rather I should say... worst.

    no, he didn't play anybody. Jesus did nothing wrong throughout his entire life.
     
  15. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    what do you mean by that? We're sorting the waste problem out? Did you mean that?
    it's not a decision, I guess. It's a spontaneous reaction to the situation as described in the last photograph, I'd say. It's natural to react that way.
    Also, I didn't mean the whole of humanity. God loves humanity. However, I assume that he deems certain actions of some (most) people such as ruining his creation worthy of his wrath.
    At that point it was clear that the Egyptians had to deal with God himself, I think.
    The Egyptian people followed their leader without hesitation into anything he wanted them in.

    So now, lets consider he would not have killed the sons. Leaving the Israeli people in that country was not an option. ...
    I think this would have dragged God into a position in which he couldn't have got his people out of Egypt. There was no way to do so, I think.

    A God that cannot produce the square triangle in this world... cannot get the people out of Egypt other than by taking the first born sons, I assume.

    and, to quote my co-poster @halbhh , God merely transferred them to an afterlife, that's all.
     
    #95 thomas t, Mar 27, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2021
  16. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Yes. I missed the ' out. We are sorting that. It's certainly no reason to go mass killing folks.

    God loves humanity and lets millions die in atrocities such as Cambodia, Rwanda, Nazi Germany etc.
    If this is an evangelical presentation then I think it needs some polishing, Thomas

    Mahummad told a beautiful story about his and your God.... Some men and a dog went in to a cave to shelter for a night, and God played a trick so that when they emerged 300 years had passed by, but they thought it was the next day. Such a God can do anything, so God does not get dragged in to positions, Thomas. The Egyptians could all have slept in peace for a week, Thomas

    Your God made heavens and Earth, Thomas, please don't now tell me that he finds things difficult.

    You see? Christian claims all defy themselves at every turn.
    Love/hate, reward/revenge, etc....

    Yes a wonderful heaven, which if seen for a second, Christians would rush for its rewards, but none of them do. If this afterlife is so great, why are so many Christians pro-life?
    Why?

    Another contradiction, maybe?
     
  17. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Then just as he can't complain if he's harassed, since that's what he wanted to happen, so Jesus can't complain (and didn't) about getting killed, which is what he wanted to happen.
    Walruff was not a victim but a volunteer to be harassed and can't complain about being harassed. Jesus was not a victim ─ he was a volunteer to be killed and can't complain about being killed.

    Neither was a victim. Victims don't get what they want. Walruff and Jesus got what they wanted,.
    He abused his mother, contrary to the Commandment. He assaulted businessmen in the Temple who were going about their lawful business in a traditional trade in the traditional manner. He also overthrew their tables and scattered their money, occasioning them loss. He made no attempt to persuade them to his point of view, he just charged in. He used someone else's pigs to perform magic regarding devils, and killed all the pigs, with no mention of compensation. He also killed a fig tree in a fit of pique, and either the tree had an owner who also went uncompensated, or it was a wild tree whose fruit fed the public, thus depriving them of a resource.

    And no doubt I could find more if I put my mind to it. (A long time ago in Mexico I came across the legends of il malo Santo Christo, which if you don't know them, are tales of Jesus' childhood of the sort where the infant Jesus goes around killing, wounding and working destruction and his mother has to follow after, putting everything right again.)
     
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  18. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    Blaming Christianity? Odd wording. No it is not a generic statement. It is the reality of history.
     
  19. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    you said this:
    So this is a generic statement about Christians (among others). It was ridiculous.
    You generalized. Horrible. It was a condescending remark about people in general who stick to an old religion.
     
  20. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    no, of course not.

    So you are telling me man is willing and still able to sort the pollution problems out?
    I don't believe it.
    Ok.
    Free will then. God designed a creation that contains free will. Man often decides wrong.

    yes, and then you would have the same exact situation as before... 100 km more to the east.
    You think they did not have horses to follow the Hebrews into the desert to get them back?

    God cannot create the square triangle now. The rules of creation, that He set, are set now.

    all this and your other question about Jesus having five names.... is subject to another thread in which I may participate.
     
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