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Featured Is the Good News As Presented in the Bible Snakeoil Salesmanship?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by thomas t, Mar 25, 2021.

  1. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    it's the perfect comparison then.
    Jesus was as much a victim as Walraff was.
    Blaming Walraff for the racism he was the victim of... is absurd.

    As a matter of fact - Walraff made a great contribution to Germany exposing the racism among its residents. He posted the video and got rewarded I think.
    Jesus also helped mankind with his wonderful work. He is my savior!

    that was all perfectly fine - I mean the things mentioned in the Bible as opposed to tales.
     
  2. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Seems like a valid statement to me. What do you think is wrong about it?
     
  3. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    It was not meant to a polite statement and I stand by it.
     
  4. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    It was a condescending remark. It was generalizing and impolite.
    Let's show some minimum standards of behavior, please.
    see above
     
  5. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    It was not meant to a polite statement and I stand by it.

    Get over it.
     
  6. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    I don't see my role on this board to receive condescending remarks from your side.

    Can you please be polite?
    Thank you.
     
  7. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    Why the condescending remarks on your part, because we disagree?

    Members and Board should be equal in the real world of this site.

    Can you please be polite?
    Thank you.
     
    #107 shunyadragon, Mar 27, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2021
  8. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    That is, not a victim at all.
    He went out there with the express purpose of generating examples of racism and he succeeded. He got what he wanted. He was the object of racism, not the victim of it, since his mission would have been a failure without it.
    The only part that was not in the bible were the legends of the bad infant Jesus, which I should have mentioned go back to medieval times.

    So at the least you have Jesus guilty of breaching the commandment to honor his parents, Jesus guilty of assault, wilful damage, affray and public disorder; Jesus guilty of theft and killing of the pigs; and Jesus guilty of the wanton destruction of the fig tree.
     
  9. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    actually I was polite. I did not resort to condescending remarks against you. Even if we did not agree.
     
  10. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    this is the common blame shifting we always see when it comes to racism.
    Not the attacker is to be blamed, but the victim... because he "generated" racism.
    All that Walraff did... is plan the tour, book the bus, enter the bus, take a seat, sit down and wait.
    According to you, this is "generating" racist slurs.
    Of course, whenever a worried person sees a black person sitting on a chair in a bus, they can't help themselves but rant. A black person sitting there? Of course, every worried citizen has to stand up and rant aginst this!

    This is the common blame shifting. Not the racism is the problem in the minds of many worried citizens - it's the black person sitting there. "generating" slurs just for sitting there and refusing to escape the situation.

    Jesus did nothing wrong in his life, he honoured his parents and so on.
     
  11. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    The person determined to commit suicide jumps in front of the train and is killed. And you want to say that if the driver is innocent, that's victim-blaming? There's a fine old English expression spelt pshaw!

    In other words neither Jesus nor the person jumping under the train is a victim ─ at least, not a victim of the Romans or the traindriver, though they may be victims of mental disorder, of course.
    Of course ─ why else is he there? Not to get from A to B, but to see what slurs he can attract.

    I gave you the references twice. They show Jesus' mission was from the start intended to end in his death. As I also said, this is so obvious that Jesus Christ Superstar's Judas has a song to that effect. Tim Rice and I may not have a lot in common but we both apparently read what the NT actually says
    Not this apologist rubbish again! The NT says he was relentlessly rude to his ma and family, with only the one exception in John's crucifixion scene.

    Just for starters:

    Luke 11:27 As he said this, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts that you sucked!” 28 But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

    John 2:3 When the wine failed, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” 4 And Jesus said to her, “O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
    There's more where that came from, and note that nowhere does he call her "Mother".

    And then there are the outstanding warrants for assault, riot, affray, theft of pigs, and destruction of private or public property, depending on who owned the fig tree.
     
  12. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    comparing racism to running trains is the problem.
    It's at the core of victim blaming.

    "I had to beat you, because you just stood there, the beating is like a train passing by" - this is the common victim blaming.
    Again and again. It doesn't get better.

    Walraff didn't attract any slurs. He didn't generate any slurs. This is just the common victim blaming that I often see on your side.

    Jesus's mission was just as intended as Walraff's was. Perfect analogy there.

    ---------------
    I didn't post rubbish. Jesus wasn't rude. He isn't guilty of assault, riot, affray and so on.

    Fig tree: since he was God, he might have withdrawn God's love needed for a tree to grow. Maybe it's like that.
    God produced all trees. He may take trees.
    Same with pigs, I think.
     
  13. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Tell that to the train driver ─ she's of Chinese descent.

    And as I keep telling you, before you can blame the victim, first there has to be a victim, and volunteers who set out with the specific purpose of drawing the relevant reactions are in no sense victims.
    Oh dear, you really must take your apologist's hat down to the incinerator and burn it!

    Otherwise it'll continue fall over your eyes.
    So now you're saying Jesus is a liar, and that none of his seventeen or more denials that he's God is true, and that his whole mission was built on a deliberate deception?

    Well, freedom of belief is your right, I guess.
    He stole the pigs. The story is plain. He committed assault, launched straight into it, against people lawfully going about their business. Is that how you conduct yourself? I don't.
    Theft of pigs is cool with you? You surprise me,
     
  14. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    you keep trying to blame Walraff for the slurs, it seems.
    Just sitting there is not a reason for anyone to resort to slurs. Period.


    I stand by my opinion.
    No, I did not say jesus is a liar. No deception there.
    In my opinion, there is no denial from Jesus's side that he is God.
    same right for everyone.
    If you manage to direct demons into pigs, you could also do it.
    Same thing with a fig tree.
     
  15. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    You keep blaming the driver, not the suicide.
    Yes, you said (to give a sample) that the following statements attributed in direct speech to Jesus, are deliberate falsehoods:

    Mark 12: 29 Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one;” ... 32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;

    Matthew 20:23 “to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

    Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”

    Luke 18:19 “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”

    John 5:19the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”

    John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

    John 10:29My Father [...] is greater than all”.

    John 14:28 [...] I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.

    John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

    John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”
    John 17:3 is perhaps the starkest way of making the point that he's not God.

    What an apologist would do now is to work out how to disagree with the obvious, that in each case Jesus is saying he isn't God and that God is his boss, what rationalizations and excuses might be pressed into service.

    I hope that's not what you're doing.
     
  16. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    No you were not polite.

    Get over it.
     
  17. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    in which post wasn't I polite? I was all the time, shunyadragon.
     
  18. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    actually I don't.
    (I didn't come up with the analogy of the Chinese train driver, and it wasn't the right analogy, I think)

    Interesting.
    However, not one of these verses prove that Jesus is not God.
    So there is no falsehood in what I or the Bible keep saying.
    For example #1: God is one, which does not rule out that jesus is God.
    #2 God the Father and Jesus have different functions. Could be that they are part of the same body.
    #3 see #2.
    If the first three verses couldn't show your point, it makes sense to assume the rest won't either.

    At this point of the debate, the whole topic of trinity is a red herring, I think.
    Please stay on topic.
     
  19. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    That danged apologist hat of yours fell down over your eyes again, and caused you to miss (to take just one example) ─

    John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”
    And of course there are the words of Paul, and of the author of 1 Timothy ─

    1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

    1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
    And of course the failure of any version of Jesus to say, even once, "I am God".

    So if Jesus was actually God, his mission was one long deception, bolstered with multiple lies.
     
  20. thomas t

    thomas t non-denominational Christian

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    Daniel, I wanted to finish up a debate with someone about being polite first, now let me get back to you...
    misfortune? Man has enough knowledge to be able to live a life with respect for the environment.

    I do think that consumers need to be more careful today then they would have to be back then.
    Where do the flowers come from you buy at the supermarket? From a company using child labor?
    Where do big companies you may have shares from are involved? Do they supply military dictatorships?
    How does the government deal with arms exports? Do they arm Saudi-Arabia for instance and their ruthless and needless war in Yemen?
    How does this effect your voting decision?

    Of course, when it comes to comsumer decisions today you need to be more careful than a hundred years ago, that's obvious I think.


    this is a bit too hypothetical for me...

    I don't know if the multiply thing from Genesis 1 is still valid today.

    Edited to add last sentence
     
    #120 thomas t, Mar 29, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2021
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