yes you got that right, Old Badger, what's the problem?
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Is the Good News As Presented in the Bible Snakeoil Salesmanship?
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
This is counter mainstream christian theology concerning "the fall" / "original sin".
And god doesn't?
Not that that's the point.
The point concerns the free will of the terrorists.
Their free will is left untouched when their ploy is discovered and thwarted before they can carry out their plans.
It does. It's the exact same thing.
It is stopping someone from committing a crime after they freely decided to commit said crime and before they can make victims / cause harm.
What is that difference?
You're just claiming it. Please also explain it.
According to mainstream christian theology.
everyone knows that man is trying to destroy the planet.
Look at this:
1. I didn't do that.
2. pollution is a modern problem. There were no plastics or chemicals being dumped anywhere 400 years ago.
Really? Who? The entity you can't even show to be real? The entity that is indistinguishable from imagination?
You are just confirming what I said.
In your world, man is guilty by default of being man.
In your world, all humans are guilty of crimes committed by any individual.
If everyone knows they just cannot execute a crime that has real effects.... there is no actual free will to commit a crime that has at least some effects.
What you are describing is free will for an hypothetical but impossible thing.
The FBI is not half as powerful as God. They can prevent half of all crimes. But there are some crimes that they cannot prevent.
That's the difference.
The FBI is just a collection of humans. No less, but no more either.
God created free will for man. This belongs to our creation now.
According to you this is mainstream theology. As usual, no quotes.
Are you telling me you eat organic food only, you are dressed up in organic clothing or second hand clothing only, you only use electricity stemming from natural resources (in Belgium, a country known for its atomic plants...) public transport and the bike whenever you can... and so on?
C'me on
So, put an if before what I said concerning the creator.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Tom8to, Tomato.
Point remains. And remains unaddressed and unchallenged.
Security personnel are trained to protect and survive. Their goal is not self-sacrifice or dying.
Not so with Jesus. Everything that supposedly happened, was the plan all along.
And yet, couldn't stop some primitive barbarians from capturing him, torturing him and killing him?
He could have easily stop them from doing that. But he didn't. Because having that happen to him was his plan all along.
And since he is "as powerful as it can get", he most certainly had other options. Options that are far more humane. But he likes showing off. The entire OT is one big unnecessary show-off after the other.
To the point where he interfered with pharao's free will in exodus, by "hardening his heart" when he showed a few signs of considering to comply with Moses' demands. God couldn't have that. He wanted to show off a bit more and continue his killing spree. So he made sure Pharao didn't cave in.
yeah, very much in the way a fireman has plans how to save a child in case it stays in a burning building.
I addressed the suicide point, I think.
yes he could, see below.
As I said:
it annoys me a bit that I so often have to repeat myself with you.
I had that in the last debates. Now it's starting to adopt the same patterns. Please stay fair.
Pharaoh is for another thread. Lets remain on topic.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
This is false and exposes a seriously flawed understanding of what free will is and what it means.
My knowledge tells me that I can't jump from the eiffel tower without a parachute and live to tell the story. But that doesn't make it impossible for me to freely decide to jump anyway. it just means that if I value my life, I'ld be rather stupid to take the jump.
No. Free will is the ability to freely choose option A over option B. Having a security crime preventing system with a 100% success rate, does not - in any way - interfere with my ability to freely choose option A over B.
Sure, I'ld be stupid to choose B if B is a crime and knowing that I won't get away with it.
But that doesn't affect my ability to choose B anyway.
It only means that I won't get away with it.
So what?
The point of discussion is free will. Not the success rate of crime prevention.
So you have never heard about "the fall" or "original sin"?
You, as a christian, really need to have this explained to you?
All these things are 21st century problems (none of which I am personally responsible for) and do not at all apply to the pre-1800's.
Once again, you demonstrate that you are setting impossible standards to meet, which once again confirms my point that in your world, people are simply guilty of the crime of being human (and being born in a 21st century society).
How about you put some evidence before it instead?
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
The fireman saves the child by pulling him out of the burning building. Not by having himself killed.
Having yourself killed, accomplished nothing.
It annoys me that all you ever do is repeat yourself, regardless of how many times flaws are pointed out to you.
I think it is very much on topic. The point there is not pharao. The point is god's behavior in the story.
Sounds heroic for Jesus, but paints as a monster whichever deity set up a system that would require "tortuous death" as the price for sin.
Actually it's not false. My understanding isn't flawed either.
That was easy.
well yes.
There are others who want to commit a crime that has real effects. I mean the actual ones. God wanted to have that sort of free will that applies to actual options, not just to made-up and imagined theories. Do you understand that? free will that refers to actual options?
Do you understand the difference between free will about theoretical options... and free will concerning real alternatives? I mean real in the sense of potentially happening as a matter of fact? Do you understand there is a difference?
see above
see above
You came up with a theory. Back up what you say. Using sources. I don't believe hearsay in general. I don't believe you here, either.So you have never heard about "the fall" or "original sin"?
You, as a christian, really need to have this explained to you?
well yes. That's a good point.
However, the love of money is what is behind all of this, as I see the issue. Why do big enterprises pollute so much without wanting to pay for it? Money. But loving money was an attitude that could be found before the year 1800.
That was what Jesus talked about.
This is my reading of the story at least.
I don't set impossible standards to meet. I don't confirm that being a human makes you guilty. That's your theory of the Bible. Not mine.
Actually I do more than repeating myself here. There are no flaws in this thread that I committed, I think. No flaws that could be pointed out.
in this case it did, I think, as explained in my last post.
EDTED to change the passage in the middle of the post
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idea
Question Everything
The logical, just, observable path teaches salvation is conditional upon taking personal responsibility for oneself and one's actions.
Taking a test for someone else is considered cheating at most schools. "Get out of jail free" cards do not refine prison inmates, or protect and benefit the rest of society.
Seems a victim mentality, to rely on imagined help, rely on future dooms-day catastrophic events, waste hours and hours listening to sermons and reading out-dated books rather than taking personal action and responsibility for one's fortunes. .... god helps those who help themselves ... observable reality suggests we are our own saviors.
I agree. The greatest love is living for others, not legends of death, not giving someone a book - but living and being there - being present and real and tangible.
Taking a test for someone else is considered cheating at most schools. "Get out of jail free" cards do not refine prison inmates, or protect and benefit the rest of society.
Seems a victim mentality, to rely on imagined help, rely on future dooms-day catastrophic events, waste hours and hours listening to sermons and reading out-dated books rather than taking personal action and responsibility for one's fortunes. .... god helps those who help themselves ... observable reality suggests we are our own saviors.
I agree. The greatest love is living for others, not legends of death, not giving someone a book - but living and being there - being present and real and tangible.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
So, you are just going to maintain that you have never heard of the fall / original sin in context of Christian theology? Seriously? Do you understand how stuff like this makes it difficult for me to take you seriously?
That's kind of like talking to someone who says he understands evolution while never having heard of natural selection....
What Does the Bible Say About Original Sin? (openbible.info)
And there go the goalposts...................
So because a few greedy top dogs in certain companies engage in unethical practice to save a few bucks, you simply assume that ALL humans are rotten in the same way?
How is that sensible?
Looks like your reading changed after I pointed out the obvious.
The stuff you mentioned involve impossible standards to meet.
It is literally impossible to live in a 21st century society and not contribute to pollution at least indirectly. Literally impossible.
You would have to ban any and all technology from your life and go completely off the grid. You would have to not go to hospitals, doctors etc. You would have to not pay anyone ever for anything, because your money would contribute to polluting businesses. You would have to stop paying taxes, because your taxes would be used to fund fossil fueled machines.
You can't escape it. So if you are here telling us that in order to "meet the standard", you have to escape it, then you ARE setting an impossible standard.
Did you watch the netflix show The Good Place? If not, you should. It is excellently explained in there. The concept of the show is that the afterlife works on a point system. Every deed you do on earth either gains or costs points and in order to get to "the good place", you need a certain amount of points. Otherwise you end up in the bad place. As it turns out, no human can get into the good place, because the complexity of society has become such that you can't gain any points anymore, not even if you do good deeds with the best intentions. There's this one example of a guy in the 1300s who picks flowers for his mother and gains 20 points for his deed. Then a guy in the 21st century buys some flowers for his mother and loses 50 points, because his money went to the racist CEO of the company who used it to have illegal immigrants build him a pool in the garden of his mansion where he also keeps sex slaves.
Good show though, I recommend it. It really makes you think. But that aside..................
No, quite expressly to the contrary.
Jesus did not have to die. But as he states in Mark 2:20, the plan from the beginning is to die.
When Jesus gets the chance to escape, he refuses it. When the idea of death seems unpleasant, he prays that he knows he's supposed to die but if HQ can vary the plan, he'll take it.
And you too appear to be unable to tell me why, exactly, it was necessary for him to die, or what was achieved by his death that couldn't be achieved in any other way, or what was different in reality after his death than before it.
no,. You claimed in #44 that being human is the sin you get punishment for, which is made up.
No source can prove your point.
Neither the one you indicated, nor any other.
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I didn't move the goalposts. I said the love of money is behind the pollution on earth.
It's an explanation as opposed to a movement in the goalposts, as you suggested.
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Well, anybody can make a green deal. You can buy some co2 certificate from a company that plants trees. This is for every decision that you must take and which makes you produce more CO2 than the average Joe, I think.
Of course you can live and never eat any bit of conventional (non-organic) food... and so on.
Only go to the doctor if you must.
So, if God will ask you if are guilty of unnecessary polluting...
that's just one topic. Did you get angry without (sound) reason? You polluted the good atmosphere in your work environment then.
Did you [type in whatever deed that was wrong and unnecessary]? Then you harmed creation.
God's creation, I think
Nice vid for sure... but I don't have time.
(my reading didn't change)
no please, it was the classical victim blaming.
Jesus was fully human. He fully enjoyed human rights.
He wasn't guilty of anything.
There is no reason whatsoever to explain his right to life away. You don't get to tell me he didn't have this.
yes, but how else would God have answered the prayers of all those disciples facing secure death by some zealots?
maybe there was another possibility. I don't know of any, neither do you.
Now that Jesus died a death, he was able to have given a necessary explanation for all those who were slaughtered just for being Christian.
This is at least my take on the story.
It says very plainly indeed that Jesus was on a suicide mission, that any outcome that didn't end in his death would amount to failure and must be avoided ─ Mark 2:20; Mark 14:33-36; Matthew 26:18; Matthew 26:37-39; Luke 22:22; Luke 22:42; John 17:5; John 17:11; John 17:13.
According to the gospels he did quite a few reprehensible things, but they were incidental. He went to Jerusalem in order to die.
And you're apparently in the same boat as me ─ you have no idea why his death was necessary, no idea what it achieved that couldn't be achieved otherwise, no idea how reality was different as a result.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Thank you for your reply.
I don't have a problem.
My question was genuine, and now that you have confirmed that Jesus did everything right through from Genesis my next question is.....
Could Christians just produce a Bible with the word God replaced by Jesus from start through to finish? Would t that be so much more clear to everyone?
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
That's what it comes down to.
I just posted a link with a whole bunch of bible verses that underpin the concept of original sin.
But you accused me of being guilty of that and thereby insinuated that I would cut corners in an unethical manner to save a few bucks. Yet, you don't know anything about me.
And you continue to make assumptions about who I am and how I behave.
So let's say I dropped an empty can of coke next to a thrash bin once. Does that mean that unless I "accept" Jesus, I deserve eternal torment?
You are putting yourself in a corner that you can't get out of.
The whole system you adhere to is black and white and thereby rotten to the core.
You can't demonstrate that Jesus is God though, you can only assert it. If we were to assert some other long dead person to be God or even to assert that God is not Jesus then all of a sudden Jesus becomes accountable to God for His crimes against creation.
As an example Jesus was a carpenter, being a carpenter requires wood, which requires the cutting of trees - a crime against God's creation.
Or that time Jesus said to cast the fishing nets on the other side of the boat - aiding and abetting the suffocation of fish as they are pulled out of the water - a crime against God's creation.
Or that time Jesus transfered the demons to the innocent pigs then drowned them in a river - a crime against God's creation (not to mention a crime against the farmer who owned the pigs).
So Jesus is a sinner who is in need of forgiveness just like the rest of us.
So we better keep those unrepentant tree chopping carpenters out of heaven - into the eternal frying pan you go Jesus.
Besides, our crimes against creation derive from the needs God created us with, God could have just as easily given us renewable energy sources from the beginning -then we wouldn't have to pollute the air every time we turn on a light switch. Or God could make a heaven were we don't have physical needs to begin with for example we could be disembodied spirits with no need of physical light etc.
original sin... I'm remembering now... this is the Catholic teaching that you inherit sin.
Well, it's not Bible.
They don't get to decide what a good Christian theology is.
Bible only please.
There is no verse indicating you can "inherit" sin, it's completely made up.
This shouldn't surprise you, the Catholics made up other things, too: the ascension of Mary, for instance. No scripture.
I didn't accuse you.
So let's assume the only thing you did wrong is this:
In my opinion, it's not the can of coke. It's the way of dealing with how you harm your environment.
It is: throwing a can of coke next to a trash bin and never apologize (to Jesus) or never pick up the next can you find beneath a trash bin to even out your sin.
In short: it is the unrepentant attitude behind. It's the attitude of saying "when I throw waste around... what's the matter! I let other people pick it up"
(this is what I assume to be the attitude behind, tell me if I'm wrong here)
It's a point on a list... I'm not saying this is the basis of how Jesus is going to judge you.
It's my personal guess that people who did not apologize to Jesus (the owner) and repented of what they have done... won't be admitted to life.
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EDIT: now I read your source: the first three Bible verses don't prove your point about man being purportedly sinful just for being human.
Since these three didn't show your point, the rest won't either, I assume.
Well, it's not Bible.
They don't get to decide what a good Christian theology is.
Bible only please.
There is no verse indicating you can "inherit" sin, it's completely made up.
This shouldn't surprise you, the Catholics made up other things, too: the ascension of Mary, for instance. No scripture.
no, actually I wasn't clear.
I didn't accuse you.
So let's assume the only thing you did wrong is this:
This is a reason that might exclude you from heaven (the place you asked what it is)... I mean eternal life with Jesus.
In my opinion, it's not the can of coke. It's the way of dealing with how you harm your environment.
It is: throwing a can of coke next to a trash bin and never apologize (to Jesus) or never pick up the next can you find beneath a trash bin to even out your sin.
In short: it is the unrepentant attitude behind. It's the attitude of saying "when I throw waste around... what's the matter! I let other people pick it up"
(this is what I assume to be the attitude behind, tell me if I'm wrong here)
It's a point on a list... I'm not saying this is the basis of how Jesus is going to judge you.
It's my personal guess that people who did not apologize to Jesus (the owner) and repented of what they have done... won't be admitted to life.
---------------
EDIT: now I read your source: the first three Bible verses don't prove your point about man being purportedly sinful just for being human.
Since these three didn't show your point, the rest won't either, I assume.
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His death had a great benefit. Comforting all next generations of martyrs,
so it was great, it was solving the problem of how to deal with the prayers of Christians spoken in the face of certain death.
I'm not Jesus though.
I just see the benefits of Jesus's death, and I'm glad he died for us humans.
But blaming him for his death would be wrong.
Victim blaming.
He had a right to life.
Even if I go to the next pub with the intent of having myself killed... I don't deserve death, of course. Noone does. My death would have been 100% the killer's fault, of course.
Don't blame the victim.