Is the Arab World's explusion of Jews news to you?

[LuisDantas]

I have been attempting to understand the antisemitism in Muslim/Arab communities for years now.

That it exists and is a serious problem is plenty obvious, but its motivation is almost mysterious. There seems to be no logical justification, for instance, for the decision to invade Israel back in the day of its formal inauguration in 1948.

Muslims just won't attempt to clarify their perspective on the matter.

As of now, I have little choice but to assume that the Quranic indoctrination against "letting go of God's land" is so deep and so furious that even the idea of establishing Israel is inherently offensive to Muslims.

I hope I am wrong. I have no reason to expect to find out that I am wrong. And if I am not wrong, there is simplly no way of forgiving Muslims or Islaam for such venomous, shameful bias.

 

[Limo]

I have been attempting to understand the antisemitism in Muslim/Arab communities for years now.

That it exists and is a serious problem is plenty obvious, but its motivation is almost mysterious. There seems to be no logical justification, for instance, for the decision to invade Israel back in the day of its formal inauguration in 1948.

Muslims just won't attempt to clarify their perspective on the matter.

As of now, I have little choice but to assume that the Quranic indoctrination against "letting go of God's land" is so deep and so furious that even the idea of establishing Israel is inherently offensive to Muslims.

I hope I am wrong. I have no reason to expect to find out that I am wrong. And if I am not wrong, there is simplly no way of forgiving Muslims or Islaam for such venomous, shameful bias.

Where are these antisemitic acts in Islamic and Arab world ?
Arab Islamic world especially Turkey, Egypt, Morocco, Iraqi, Yemen,, were the safest refugee for Jews.
While they used to live in ghitoos, they were the elite people in Arab world. They're till date in Morocco for example.

Tell me about Christian empires and Europe !!!! How many Jews have been killed ?

Quran is the only protection for Jews, Christians, and non-Muslims. Most of issues happened to non-Muslim happened in absence of Caliphate i.e. absence of Islamic law.

About Israel state, imagine that red Indians came after 2000 years and say you know what America is our fathers land. With the support of superpower at that time, they jumped into northern and southern America in groups. Started armed group, Killing people, terrify them to leave. then the superpowers support them and recognize the new red Indian state.
Then people like you was wondering why American are fighting for their land..... this is anti-Indiasm !!!... they should accept these people....
Nevertheless, Indian people are saying "You know what? It's Indian land for Indians only" All these American people should go.
Is the story finished, no absolutely no.
There is no 2 states solution, even the 1947 decree is not acceptable. Only Indian for Indians only state should be there.
These people should go to their brothers in Europe and accommodate them in UK, Spain, Germany, France.

This your logic.

 

[metis]

The unfortunate reality about religion is that its practitioners all too often use it to build walls versus bridges. The fortunate reality about religion is that its practitioners often do realize that we are brothers and sisters and should respect each other as equals.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Of the history of the formation of the country Israel I do not believe that a million arabs were driven from the land of palestine. I do think that they were not wanted after the war, and they were not allowed back in to then Israeli controlled territory. There were also violent actions taken by arabs and Jews. Blood was spilled.

It is unfortunate that the UN chose this location to funnel the refugees. Almost any place would have been more hospitable than the area around Jerusalem. For example if a partition had been created near Chile or somewhere in Europe things would have been quite peachy. Was the UN trying to get these people killed? It would not be surprising. The UN is irresponsible, backstabbing all day long. To your face it is pleasant but to your back a knife. It touts human rights while its agents get involved in human trafficking, then it goes through reform or so it says. It is a house of graft.

 

[LuisDantas]

Where are these antisemitic acts in Islamic and Arab world ?

The most obvious manifestations include the 1972 Munich slaughter and the current Hamas overt goals.

But it goes far further than that, although I don't claim to understand quite how much or why.

Why do you ask?

Arab Islamic world especially Turkey, Egypt, Morocco, Iraqi, Yemen, were the safest refugee for Jews.
While they used to live in ghitoos, they were the elite people in Arab world. They're till date in Morocco for example.

That may or may not have been true at some point. It clearly is not as of now.

More to the point, there is hardly any reason whatsover to expect a reversion to that state of things even if it was true at one time. So I am not sure what you meant to say here.

Tell me about Christian empires and Europe !!!! How many Jews have been killed ?

Far too many. Did you expect me to excuse them?

Quran is the only protection for Jews, Christians, and non-Muslims.

There is no truth whatsoever in that statement.

Most of issues happened to non-Muslim happened in absence of Caliphate i.e. absence of Islamic law.

That, too, has no truth whatsoever. The Armenians know that. So have many other people known for many centuries, including for instance these:


Early Muslim conquests - Wikipedia

Siege of Vienna - Wikipedia

Battle of Vienna - Wikipedia

Muslim conquest of Persia - Wikipedia

Islam and Sikhism - Wikipedia

Muslim conquests of the Indian subcontinent - Wikipedia


I hope you know that already and decide to eventually tell me what you meant to say.

About Israel state, imagine that red Indians came after 2000 years and say you know what America is our fathers land. With the support of superpower at that time, they jumped into northern and southern America in groups. Started armed group, Killing people, terrify them to leave. then the superpowers support them and recognize the new red Indian state.

Is that comparison meant to relate in any way to Israel? If so, I must say that it failed utterly.

 

[Limo]

Of the history of the formation of the country Israel I do not believe that a million arabs were driven from the land of palestine. I do think that they were not wanted after the war, and they were not allowed back in to then Israeli controlled territory. There were also violent actions taken by arabs and Jews. Blood was spilled.

It is unfortunate that the UN chose this location to funnel the refugees. Almost any place would have been more hospitable than the area around Jerusalem. For example if a partition had been created near Chile or somewhere in Europe things would have been quite peachy. Was the UN trying to get these people killed? It would not be surprising. The UN is irresponsible, backstabbing all day long. To your face it is pleasant but to your back a knife. It touts human rights while its agents get involved in human trafficking, then it goes through reform or so it says. It is a house of graft.

I agree with you to some extent but UN is nothing but the arm of the historical big 5 countries policy than own a Vito in the security council.

By the way a few alternatives were discussed in the Zionist movement to have the Jewish state in Argentina, Kenya,

 

[Limo]

The most obvious manifestations include the 1972 Munich slaughter and the current Hamas overt goals.

But it goes far further than that, although I don't claim to understand quite how much or why.

Why do you ask?

You're purposely mixing things to create confusion.
These actions are in the context of wars.
Antisemitic is to show disrespect to Judaic culture. books, belief, cemeteries, synagogues, history, people,,,,
Israelis intelligence systems have done hundreds times such actions all over the world including execution of scientists and elite.

You must differentiate between Jews and Judaism in one side which you'll find much respect in Arab world than any other place all over the history and in modern ERA

The second side is the Zionist and Israel state : Here there are wars and fights. They're occupying Palestine. This is a continuous war and will not end soon

To proof the difference and resolve the confusion purposely made by people like you, there are many Jews and Judaic groups against Zionist movement and Israel state. Some of these group are opposing the Israil state for Judaic religious reason

Antisemitic is in west only. Arabs are Semitic too.

That may or may not have been true at some point. It clearly is not as of now.

More to the point, there is hardly any reason whatsover to expect a reversion to that state of things even if it was true at one time. So I am not sure what you meant to say here.

I want to say that your bloody history against Jews by pushing them to Ghettos and killing them all over the history are your crimes as Christians and European. You need to feel guilty about it.
But we Arabs and Muslims offered all the time the refugee and safety to Jews till date.

Far too many. Did you expect me to excuse them?

I don't care. You feel guilty... you should be.
When you try to pay back to Jews for your crimes and bloody history do out away from Arabs.
Give them what you own. May be Paris, London, Rome, Munich.

There is no truth whatsoever in that statement.

It's your opinion. I can't change even of I give you tons of verses from Quran, Hadeeth, or history.

That, too, has no truth whatsoever. The Armenians know that. So have many other people known for many centuries, including for instance these:


Early Muslim conquests - Wikipedia

Siege of Vienna - Wikipedia

Battle of Vienna - Wikipedia

Muslim conquest of Persia - Wikipedia

Islam and Sikhism - Wikipedia

Muslim conquests of the Indian subcontinent - Wikipedia


I hope you know that already and decide to eventually tell me what you meant to say.

another mix of facts, Let us concentrate. We're talking about Jews here.
Tell me in history of Islamic Caliphate that rules by Islamic law, when in history we did one tenths of Christians and European bloody crimes against history ?

Is that comparison meant to relate in any way to Israel? If so, I must say that it failed utterly.

Why ?
Let me phrase the statement but remove America and Red Indians by Palestine and Zionist.
The Holy of Holies was destroyed at 70 CE, last revelation was 135 CE. Since that date Israelis were subject to killing and kicking off by Christians all over the history.
Nevertheless, many voluntary migration out of Palestine by Jews happened. Even since that date and even before, Arabs were there with Jews or at least very near neighbors.
Since that date, Israelis existence in Palestine is minor. The land have been exchanged and rid off by many empires. Israelis were there with Arabs and other ethnics.

OOOHHH, I forgot. Ibrahim (father of Israelis and Jews) is not Palestine but Iraqi.
Again, Israelis left Palestine in Israel time to Egypt as Yousof (Joseph) was Egypt minster.

A few centuries later Mosa has taken Israelis back to Palestine. It wasn't empty. right?
Israelis has taken it by war.

So, there were people before Ibrahim and another people during Egypt's time.
Do you know something ? We love and it's a must for Muslim to love good people of Israel till except people who rejected Al-Maseh. They're our brothers not yours.

Back to Byzantine, after last revelation. Israelis migrated all over the world and were subject to Christians massacre till modern time.

Till Muslims take over Palestine, There were Jews in Palestine till date. They're living peaceful with Arabic without issues.

Suddenly in 19th and 20th century, some people jumped from Europe and "say you know what?" there were 2 Israelis kingdoms here since 2000 years. This is the promised land.
Nevertheless, 100% of Jews are Israel descendants. Israel and Israelis are Semitic. They should look like us Arabs. but we've been surprised by blue eyes and Africans (Falasha)
And anyone wants a new life just convert and get Israel passport in the same day.

Jews used to live in Palestine with all Arabs peaceful. It should have been continued like this.

Is it clear now ?

 

[LuisDantas]

You're purposely mixing things to create confusion.

No. You are.

And that is assuming that you are not lying consciously.

 

[Estro Felino]

Jews used to live in Palestine with all Arabs peaceful. It should have been continued like this.

You know..in the 20th century, jurists from different parts of the world created something called International law. According to this law, any single nation as linguistic, cultural and ethnographic unity has the right to self-determination. So,Israelis have the right to self-determination; Palestinians have the right to self-determination. These two rights are perfectly reconcilable. That's why European countries are totally at peace with one another. Thanks to this rule of international law and diplomacy.
So..I am sorry...it shouldn't have continued like that.

 

[LuisDantas]

I want to say that your bloody history against Jews by pushing them to Ghettos and killing them all over the history are your crimes as Christians and European. You need to feel guilty about it.

You are quite mistaken, Limo. I was never a Christian, nor an European.

Some of my ancestors may well have been. I honestly could not tell you for sure. It is even possible that some of them were unfair towards the Jewish People in some way. Going back ten generations, I would have literally hundreds of ancestors, so it is entirely possible.

But not one of them would have my support or approval, so I don't have any reason to feel ashamed regarding "my" treatment of Jewish People no matter what.

But we Arabs and Muslims offered all the time the refugee and safety to Jews till date.

That is at the very best a partial truth.

One that, apparently, the Jewish People refuse to endorse.

As does the Qur'an, unless you take a very biased view of what Dhimmitude is supposed to be.

Then again, even if that were true, the facts of today would be no less true themselves. So, again, what would your point be?

I don't care. You feel guilty... you should be.

Hardly. Maybe you want to come back to me when you have something of substance to say?

 

[Tumah]

Where are these antisemitic acts in Islamic and Arab world ?
Arab Islamic world especially Turkey, Egypt, Morocco, Iraqi, Yemen,, were the safest refugee for Jews.
While they used to live in ghitoos, they were the elite people in Arab world. They're till date in Morocco for example.

This is wrong. Yes its true that the Islamic world was usually (but not always) safer than the Christian world. But that's relative to the Christian world at the time, not an objective standard. Jews were massacred, expelled, given identifying clothing to wear and degraded in Muslim countries as well.

We can use Morocco as an example since you mention it.

During the 12th century under the rule of the Al-muwahhids The preferential status of the Jews stopped to exist and a section of the community, was deported to Algeria in about 987.[8]

Between 1035 and 1068 The invasions of the Almoravides and Almohades, fanatic Muslim sects caused destruction, fear and chaos to the Jewish community in Fez. It is estimated that about 6,000 Jews were massacred during those events. Al-muwahhids, was a militant dynasty who was determined to expel all those who did not share his religious beliefs, such as Jews. The Jews were forced to convert to Islam, those who refused were exile. Some of the Jews who converted to Islam, still kept in secret their faith and kept both identities together.[8][9]

The position of the Jews under Almoravid domination was apparently free of major abuses, though there are reports of increasing social hostility against them - particularly in Fes.[10] Unlike the problems encountered by the Jews during the rule of the Almohads (the Almoravids' successor dynasty), there are not many factual complaints of excesses, coercion, or malice on the part of the authorities toward the Jewish communities. It is known, however, that Yusuf Ibn Tashfin forbade Jews living in the capital city Marrakesh. It was allowed for them to trade there, but if a Jew was caught in the city during night hours it was punishable by death.[11]

The tolerance of the jizya (the tax demanded of dhimmis) paying Jews and Christians in the cities of Morocco came to an end under the intolerant dynasty of the stern Almohades, who came into power in 1146. Here, as in other parts of North Africa, many Jews who shrank from emigrating pretended to embrace Islam. For example, names such as Benchekroun (initially Chokron or Choukroun or Chekroun depending on the pronunciation), El Kohen, and Kabbaj were Jewish in origin. Maimonides, who was staying in Fez with his father, is said to have written to the communities to comfort and encourage his brethren and fellow believers in this time of oppression [12] In the above-mentioned elegy of Abraham ibn Ezra, which appears to have been written at the commencement of the period of the Almohads, and which is found in a Yemen siddur among the kinot prescribed for the Ninth of Ab, the Moroccan cities Ceuta, Meknes, the Draa River valley, Fez, and Segelmesa are especially emphasized as being exposed to great persecution. Joseph ha-Kohen[13] relates that no remnant of Israel was left from Tangier to Mehdia. Moreover, the later Almohads were no longer content with the repetition of a mere formula of belief in the unity of God and in the prophetic calling of Muhammad. Abu Yusuf Ya'qub al-Mansur, the third Almohad prince, suspecting the sincerity of the supposedly converted Jews, compelled them to wear distinguishing garments, with a very noticeable yellow cloth for a head-covering; from that time forward the clothing of the Jews formed an important subject in the legal regulations concerning them. The reign of the Almohads on the whole exercised a most disastrous and enduring influence on the position of the Moroccan Jews. Already branded by their clothing as unbelievers, they furthermore became objects of scorn and violent despotic caprice from which there was no escape.

An account by Solomon Cohen dated January 1148 AD describes the Almohad conquests:

"Abd al-Mumin ... the leader of the Almohads after the death of Muhammad Ibn Tumart the Mahdi ... captured Tlemcen [in the Maghreb] and killed all those who were in it, including the Jews, except those who embraced Islam. ... [In Sijilmasa] One hundred and fifty persons were killed for clinging to their [Jewish] faith. ... One hundred thousand persons were killed in Fez on that occasion, and 120,000 in Marrakesh. The Jews in all [Maghreb] localities [conquered] ... groaned under the heavy yoke of the Almohads; many had been killed, many others converted; none were able to appear in public as Jews."[14]​

The last ruler of the Marinid dynasty, Abd al-Haqq II, appointed many Jews to high positions. This angered many Muslims and was one of the main causes for the 1465 Moroccan revolt, in which the entire Jewish community of Fez was massacred.

However the influx [of refugees from the Spanish Expulsion] also caused overcrowding in the larger cities of Morocco, aroused uneasiness both among the Muslims, who feared an increase in the price of necessities, and among the Jews already settled there, who had hitherto barely succeeded in gaining a livelihood by following handicrafts and in petty commerce. In addition to this, unfriendly reception, the newcomers had to endure much from both great and small rulers eager for booty, as well as from the Moorish population.[21] In Sale, in 1442, many Jewish women were raped; and in Alcazarquivir, the Jews were robbed of all they possessed. Many died of hunger and some returned to Spain;[22] most fled to Fez, where new trials awaited them. A terrible conflagration occurred in the Jewish quarter of that city, from which the historian of these events, Abraham ben Solomon of Torrutiel, then eleven years of age, escaped.[23] A famine broke out soon after the fire, during which more than 20,000 Jews died in and around Fez.​

Should I keep going on? I had to stop there because just the bad things that were done to Jews in Morocco was more than 12,000 characters that we're given for a post. You can read more about it here if you like.

Sure it was better than most European countries. But don't pretend that it was jannah.

Tell me about Christian empires and Europe !!!! How many Jews have been killed ?

"We didn't kill as many Jews as you!"
I'm not sure that's something to be boast about.

Quran is the only protection for Jews, Christians, and non-Muslims. Most of issues happened to non-Muslim happened in absence of Caliphate i.e. absence of Islamic law.

وَٱللّٰه حبيبي؟؟؟

A central repressive aspect of the dhimmi condition, the jizya poll tax, was clearly understood by Muslim tradition to have begun with the Jews of Khaibar. The tax originated when the Jews were forced to handover 50% of the harvest . It it was elaborated upon in the early 12th-century by Caliph al-Amir bi-AhkamIllah of Egypt who ruled from 1101 to 1130. The Caliph said the “prior degradation of the infidels before the life to come – – where it is their lot, is considered an act of piety”. Such degradation, which included the jizya poll tax was, “a divinely ordained obligation that was based on the words from the Quran: ” until they pay the tax willingly and make this submission.”

The Caliph described the jizya taxn as a means of discrimination and humiliation, not merely a source of income.

[..] The tax had to be “exacted from him directly in order to vilify and humiliate him, so that is slam and it’s people might be exalted and the race of infidels brought low.”
-Source​

I mean, that's ignoring the early Caliphates that brought war to every country they conquered.

About Israel state, imagine that red Indians came after 2000 years and say you know what America is our fathers land. With the support of superpower at that time, they jumped into northern and southern America in groups. Started armed group, Killing people, terrify them to leave. then the superpowers support them and recognize the new red Indian state.

About Israel state, imagine that Jews and Christians are living there. And then Caliph Umar alKhittab comes with his Muslim army and says, you know what? I'll take this. And conquers the whole country and the surrounding countries and makes the residents into dhimmi and brings many, many Muslim Arabs into the country.

 

[Tumah]

Since I've already dealt with most of the rest of your post, I wanted to just say one thing.

Do you know something ? We love and it's a must for Muslim to love good people of Israel till except people who rejected Al-Maseh.

Since Jews obviously reject Jesus, aren't you basically saying there's never going to be a situation where Muslims will love good people of Israel...

 

[Underhill]

Over the last 60-70 years, the Arab world has expelled about 99% of its - well established - Jewish population. At the end of WW II about 850,000 Jews lived in the "Arab World". Today that number is about 8,500.

The Middle East's Greatest Untold Story | The Huffington Post

It's a natural reaction to the treatment Jews have given the Palestinians. Wrong, of course, but predictable.

 

[icehorse]

It's a natural reaction to the treatment Jews have given the Palestinians. Wrong, of course, but predictable.

I'd agree that that partially explains it, but I think there are other - perhaps even more important - factors.

 

[Tumah]

It's a natural reaction to the treatment Jews have given the Palestinians. Wrong, of course, but predictable.

Ignoring my post here, its a natural reaction? Are you saying its unnatural that the US didn't expel their own Jews during that time?

 

[Underhill]

Ignoring my post here, its a natural reaction? Are you saying its unnatural that the US didn't expel their own Jews during that time?

What does that have to do with it? We were not the wronged party.

Israel is formed against all the wishes of the Arab world on disputed land claims and while treating the local Palestinians with disrespect (putting it nicely). The Arab world was willing to go to war with Israel over the situation. Why would it surprise anyone that their reaction has been less than favorable to their native Jews?

This also explains, at least in part, why most of the Arab world doesn't particularly love the US since our support is much of the reason Israel walked all over them in that war.

And yes, we did treat the Japanese badly after they bombed Pearl Harbor. We haven't been exactly kind and generous to Arabs since 9-11 (many Americans anyway).

 

[Tumah]

What does that have to do with it? We were not the wronged party.

Israel is formed against all the wishes of the Arab world on disputed land claims and while treating the local Palestinians with disrespect (putting it nicely). The Arab world was willing to go to war with Israel over the situation. Why would it surprise anyone that their reaction has been less than favorable to their native Jews?

This also explains, at least in part, why most of the Arab world doesn't particularly love the US since our support is much of the reason Israel walked all over them in that war.

And yes, we did treat the Japanese badly after they bombed Pearl Harbor. We haven't been exactly kind and generous to Arabs since 9-11 (many Americans anyway).

So you're saying Iraqis are a wronged party???

 

[metis]

I think it's less important to argue over history and more important to deal with the here & now on this. However, that being said, solutions are really hard to come by.

 

[icehorse]

What does that have to do with it? We were not the wronged party.

Israel is formed against all the wishes of the Arab world on disputed land claims and while treating the local Palestinians with disrespect (putting it nicely). The Arab world was willing to go to war with Israel over the situation. Why would it surprise anyone that their reaction has been less than favorable to their native Jews?

This also explains, at least in part, why most of the Arab world doesn't particularly love the US since our support is much of the reason Israel walked all over them in that war.

And yes, we did treat the Japanese badly after they bombed Pearl Harbor. We haven't been exactly kind and generous to Arabs since 9-11 (many Americans anyway).

By this logic, the Arabs have pushed many Christians (and members of other faiths), off of their traditional lands in the ME. In other words, the Arabs want the entire ME, and the creation of Israel is a convenient scapegoat. In other, other words, it's simply not the case that Arabs have legitimate historical claims to the entire ME.

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

Over the last 60-70 years, the Arab world has expelled about 99% of its - well established - Jewish population. At the end of WW II about 850,000 Jews lived in the "Arab World". Today that number is about 8,500.

The Middle East's Greatest Untold Story | The Huffington Post

So u mean that is bad and horrible, but its ok to kick out Palestinians and to built illegal settlements?

I just wanna understand you.