Is the Arab World's explusion of Jews news to you?

[icehorse]

Some threads on RF remind me of why I think the world--and indeed including the Middle East--would be more able to coexist and more peaceful without every single Abrahamic religion.

This is one of those threads, unfortunately.

It just seems inevitable that when one group claims ultimate, unfalsifiable authority conflicts will arise. And, borrowing from Sam Harris, we basically have two methods to resolve conflicts: discussion and guns. When any group holds certain claims to be above reproach, only guns are left... sigh.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Some threads on RF remind me of why I think the world--and indeed including the Middle East--would be more able to coexist and more peaceful without every single Abrahamic religion.

This is one of those threads, unfortunately.

Humans would just find something else to fight over, then, like we always do. The issue here is human nature. We're violent, mean animals.

 

[Debater Slayer]

It just seems inevitable that when one group claims ultimate, unfalsifiable authority conflicts will arise. And, borrowing from Sam Harris, we basically have two methods to resolve conflicts: discussion and guns. When any group holds certain claims to be above reproach, only guns are left... sigh.

Guns have failed to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict for decades, and I expect that they will continue to do so. Most people, including most of the ones who have hateful beliefs, don't engage in violence, so I think it's simplistic to say that discussion will necessarily fail to change minds or resolve conflicts just because one or more groups hold certain claims to be above reproach.

I do think guns are the main solution to groups like ISIS, though, but the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is different in that the terrorists and war criminals aren't the only ones entangled in it.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Humans would just find something else to fight over, then, like we always do. The issue here is human nature. We're violent, mean animals.

I think ideologies definitely have the potential to increase or decrease a person's inclination to be violent. All else being equal, a Buddhist who believes in and practices loving-kindness meditation is not the same as a Christian or Muslim who believes that followers of other religions are going to eternally suffer in Hell and is perfectly okay with that.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I think ideologies definitely have the potential to increase or decrease a person's inclination to be violent. All else being equal, a Buddhist who believes in and practices loving-kindness meditation is not the same as a Christian or Muslim who believes that followers of other religions are going to eternally suffer in Hell and is perfectly okay with that.

There's nastiness in all the religions, including the Dharmic ones. Religion tends to amplify things that are already in the person.

 

[Debater Slayer]

There's nastiness in all the religions, including the Dharmic ones. Religion tends to amplify things that are already in the person.

Agreed for the most part. I say "most part" because I think some have a greater amplifying effect than others.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Agreed for the most part. I say "most part" because I think some have a greater amplifying effect than others.

I don't think so. I think all religions are very powerful.

 

[Limo]

You have no idea how much money that really was in that era. For many that was between 1-4 months of their income. Do the math.
Lower than the above in percentage

Religious commitments thus irrelevant.

Will you provide references for 1-4 months jzia?
By the way in the past income can't be measured by month as they were not paid salary and no social insurance

 

[Shad]

Will you provide references for 1-4 months jzia?

I said 1-4 months of wages to pay the tax.

Medieval Price List
Medieval English Wages and Prices

Search wages. Look up the referenced type of coins and the values then compare those to the tax rate you put forward

By the way in the past income can't be measured by month as they were not paid salary and no social insurance

Yes past income can be measured and has by historians. A salary is a specific type of wage not all wages. Your point is wrong and opinion irrelevant. More so your own point above refuted your previous point about taxes. You just undermined your own argument...

 

[Limo]

I said 1-4 months of wages to pay the tax.

Medieval Price List
Medieval English Wages and Prices

Search wages. Look up the referenced type of coins and the values then compare those to the tax rate you put forward



Yes past income can be measured and has by historians. A salary is a specific type of wage not all wages. Your point is wrong and opinion irrelevant. More so your own point above refuted your previous point about taxes. You just undermined your own argument...

Don't do that with me,

You said 1-4 months of income you didn't say anything about wages
Second I asked for reference for jizia being 1-4 month of income not for units and price list is Europe

 

[Shad]

Don't do that with me,

You said 1-4 months of income you didn't say anything about wages

The list includes wages but you didn't both to read either source. Wages are a form of income.

Second I asked for reference for jizia being 1-4 month of income not for units and price list is Europe

You asked for a reference that does not exist as I am comparing the value of the coin to what the middle and upper classes earn. You request in irrelevant. More so you tossed out your own math without any reference to a person's income at all. Hilarious that you demand from what you should have provided yourself. Do you know what a dirham is? Do you know how much it is worth? Do you know what people earning back then?

Also you are wrong as the poll tax is in dinars (gold) not dirhram (silver), according to Reliance of the Traveler.


Look up what a dinar is, its composition and weight. Compare it to the shilling's weight and composition. Gold coinage in Europe didn't become mainstream for centuries. With this value in mind reference what one can buy with a shilling and lower in the list regarding wages. For example a weave (middle class) earns 5 pence a day. This is without food or other costs such as housing, taxes (when called). Look at the price list as a weaver does not produce their own food supply like a farm. Consider what foods they can and can not buy. For example cheap wine per gallon would cost the weaver most of their daily income. Look at the costs for craftsmen renting a place of business which typically include housing in the rear part of the business front. Do some basic math. You should quickly realize how much money is spend on basic needs leaving little for any savings for you tax.

 

[Limo]

The list includes wages but you didn't both to read either source. Wages are a form of income.



You asked for a reference that does not exist as I am comparing the value of the coin to what the middle and upper classes earn. You request in irrelevant. More so you tossed out your own math without any reference to a person's income at all. Hilarious that you demand from what you should have provided yourself. Do you know what a dirham is? Do you know how much it is worth? Do you know what people earning back then?

Also you are wrong as the poll tax is in dinars (gold) not dirhram (silver), according to Reliance of the Traveler.


Look up what a dinar is, its composition and weight. Compare it to the shilling's weight and composition. Gold coinage in Europe didn't become mainstream for centuries. With this value in mind reference what one can buy with a shilling and lower in the list regarding wages. For example a weave (middle class) earns 5 pence a day. This is without food or other costs such as housing, taxes (when called). Look at the price list as a weaver does not produce their own food supply like a farm. Consider what foods they can and can not buy. For example cheap wine per gallon would cost the weaver most of their daily income. Look at the costs for craftsmen renting a place of business which typically include housing in the rear part of the business front. Do some basic math. You should quickly realize how much money is spend on basic needs leaving little for any savings for you tax.

What is the correlation between level of income in Europe in Christian dark ages and allegation that ME Christians converted because of Jizia ?

 

[Shad]

What is the correlation between level of income in Europe in Christian dark ages and allegation that ME Christians converted because of Jizia ?

You question is irrelevant as I never brought up conversion to Islam but merely showed how much your tax would actually cost people. If someone else brought it up address your point to them.

Your question is called a dodge as you are attempting to redirect the conversation to another topic than the one I wrote about. It is a fallacy.

 

[Limo]

You question is irrelevant as I never brought up conversion to Islam but merely showed how much your tax would actually cost people. If someone else brought it up address your point to them.

Your question is called a dodge as you are attempting to redirect the conversation to another topic than the one I wrote about. It is a fallacy.

Forget about conversion issue. By the way, it was the discussion point when you've influenced
You said the Jizya was 1-4 months of income, then you turned to wages and provided calculation with respect to Christian Dark ages.
BTW, we're discussing Jizya in Middle East and if people were accepted Islam to run away from Jizya or not ?

Now, Do you've references of value of Jizya and proof that many people in Middle East have lived Christianity and accepted Islam because of Jizya ?

 

[Shad]

Forget about conversion issue. By the way, it was the discussion point when you've influenced

So? I pointed out a lack of information in one of your points.

You said the Jizya was 1-4 months of income, then you turned to wages and provided calculation with respect to Christian Dark ages.

Yes as wages are a form of income. I provide you an idea of what people earned and the costs of living by providing a price list.

BTW, we're discussing Jizya in Middle East and if people were accepted Islam to run away from Jizya or not ?

So? You provided no information on income, costs of living, nothing. You merely tossed out a coin type and number with zero background information regard the wealth of said people.

Now, Do you've references of value of Jizya

Jiyza was your argument so support it yourself.

and proof that many people in Middle East have lived Christianity and accepted Islam because of Jizya ?

Irrelevant question as I never mentioned conversion to Islam based on Jiyza once. I do not need to support an argument I never made.