Is such a God loveable?

[Enoch07]

The king James 1611 salvation message.

How everyone is a wretch on their way to hell, without jesus.

Well that's ultimately up to God. It's a sin for any Christian to judge another person to heaven or not. That is what I don't like about fire and brimstone type Christians. They push more people away from God than they bring in.

Ok thanks for answering my question. Good day!

 

[InChrist]

How is this obvious? Where and what do you do to experience this reality?

It obvious to me that I certainly sin. I am not always kind. Sometimes my frustration or anger toward others is self-centered or not justified. At times I am impatient, selfish etc. I have lied in the past and done a number of things which according to the scriptures are sin. Are you perfect in all your thoughts, attitudes, and behavior towards others?

 

[osgart]

It obvious to me that I certainly sin. I am not always kind. Sometimes my frustration or anger toward others is self-centered or not justified. At times I am impatient, selfish etc. I have lied in the past and done a number of things which according to the scriptures are sin. Are you perfect in all your thoughts, attitudes, and behavior towards others?

No, far from It! I try my best. Perfection isn't possible.

 

[Aldrnari]

That is what I don't like about fire and brimstone type Christians. They push more people away from God than they bring in.

Truth, right here.

You can lead a horse to water, but threatening the horse with torment if they don't drink it doesn't seem like a very reasonable or even effective way to get the horse to drink.

 

[InChrist]

Hmmm... Why would someone knowingly choose to be tormented? What exactly is self-torment in this context?

I don't think anyone initially chooses self-torment they simply choose moment by moment, step by step to reject the conviction of their conscience to do right by choosing to pursue wrong. When a person has done so repeatedly to the point where their conscience is hard the Bible states they have become depraved and will not or cannot believe the truth. I think self-torment in the eternal realm is basically the result of rejecting God and being separated from God's presence, the only Source of all joy and love, leaving only emptiness, loneliness, and self agony.

 

[InChrist]

And why does that torment need to last forever. Why can't God eventually set the person free?

Well, God could set the person free, but from what I see in the scriptures those who end up separated from God in eternal torment are those who have so fully and finally rejected God's love and goodness that they are beyond the point of ever changing or desiring to be free.

 

[InChrist]

No, far from It! I try my best. Perfection isn't possible.

I agree that perfection is not possible for me or for you in ourselves, but according to the scriptures, perfection is possible, in Christ, because Jesus Christ is God, lived a perfect life, died and rose again with victory over sin and death.

 

[InChrist]

Truth, right here.

You can lead a horse to water, but threatening the horse with torment if they don't drink it doesn't seem like a very reasonable or even effective way to get the horse to drink.

I don't think the scriptures intend the passages about eternal suffering to be a threat, but rather a warning about how miserable it is to be separated from the presence of God who is the only Source of love, joy, peace, and goodness.

 

[Aldrnari]

I don't think anyone initially chooses self-torment they simply choose moment by moment, step by step to reject the conviction of their conscience to do right by choosing to pursue wrong. When a person has done so repeatedly to the point where their conscience is hard the Bible states they have become depraved and will not or cannot believe the truth.

Meh... That doesn't resemble my life. Since leaving Christianity behind, I haven't stopped being a selfless individual. I have no desire to pursue "sinful" behavior, because it really isn't in my character, honestly. It doesn't interest me.

The only things that have changed for me is that I've been trying to be more skeptical in life, and I read more- my curiosity has been rejuvenated. Rather than feeling some kind of emptiness away from god, I realise how precious life is, and that this is our only shot. If we can do our part to help others, even a little, it makes a huge difference in their lives. It's one reason I've sought a career in the medical field. Doing the right thing is it's own reward.

I think self-torment in the eternal realm is basically the result of rejecting God and being separated from God's presence, the only Source of all joy and love, leaving only emptiness, loneliness, and self agony.

So the default position aside from god is torment, eh? These are god's rules. He could have made them anything he wanted. Punishing people (who at best can only guess at life) for not playing his game an exact way (by accepting Jesus as a god and acknowledging his death as a payment for god's impossible rules) doesn't seem very fair or just to me... Especially when so many people do their best in life with what they have, and are absolutely victims of their own circumstances.

 

[dfnj]

Well if someone is eternally evil, they should face everlasting punishment, at least til they repented.

But the assumption is that they who reject god, are eternally wicked, with no ability or ever wish to repent.

It escapes me that belief in God is needed whatsoever. That's assuming to even know God. And I find absolutely no presence of God anywhere, my whole life.

That's what's maddening about Christian ultimatums. I gotta know, trust, and believe and have faith in a deity I have no ability to experience in order to get to heaven. I gotta know that Noah , and Jonah are historical factual stories. And I have to rely on a book as my only source of evidence.

So I gotta pull me brains out, and forsake my mind and experience, and imbibe the faith to get to heaven.

And I'm assumed by Christians that I know it's all true and it's obvious, and I'm somehow sinfully suppressing this knowledge in total denial.

How far does the delusion go. All the way to Beulah land. They actually sincerely believe that reality is this way, and all souls be judged this way.

So they talk to me this way, and judge me this way. And so does there God.

So they draw their Final Battle lines with me, and call it loving their enemies. When I can see how they hate non believers. Especially those who have heard the message.

It's total insanity! Where they believe they are separate from the world. But they are as mean, and nasty and bitter spiteful as I've ever seen people. They get together and mock so called sinners for being filthy wretches, when they are supposed to be praying for us according to their book.

I agree. What the Christians call love really seems like hate to me. Evil is always where you least expect it. Why not in the Bible itself. Christians have turned the back on God as the source of their spiritual truth. Instead, they are conditioned only to listen to authority outside of themselves. Christians are told what to think by people who are full of hate.

 

[osgart]

I agree. What the Christians call love really seems like hate to me. Evil is always where you least expect it. Why not in the Bible itself. Christians have turned the back on God as the source of their spiritual truth. Instead, they are conditioned only to listen to authority outside of themselves. Christians are told what to think by people who are full of hate.

That's been my experience of it. Nothing special about them. Very much like a clique.

 

[dfnj]

That's been my experience of it. Nothing special about them. Very much like a clique.

One of the most strangest experiences I've had with Christianity had to do with an experience I had with a born-again trying to evangelize. The born-again was trying to convince someone to become a born-again Christian. What was really strange and remarkable was I was getting the feeling the born-again was not exactly 100% convinced about his own faith. But when the person he was trying to convinced agreed to become a born-again Christian it gave me the sense that the guy felt his faith was validated by someone else agreeing with the twisted thoughts and twisted logic. It's a strange idea to think the only way the faith seems real is when other people buy into the delusion the same way. It's very strange and kind of scary psychological phenomena. It did not feel like it was a healthy mentality.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Do you believe that God would burn someone in hell forever for simply not believing in him? I'm amazed at how many Christians and Muslims actually believe that.

It is such a ridiculous and depressing belief, I can't fathom why anyone would love a God who would do that. Fearing such a God would make sense, but loving such a God seems sick to me.

Would you mind telling me what is so horrible about not believing in an invisible entity, that it merits eternal agony?

Eternal suffering for not believing in someone who is invisible and hides himself? Are you kidding? Such a belief is so strangely prevalent. Why?

Please explain what is loveable about such a God.

Nothing at all! I grew up with this idea, but I came to realize that it's a teaching perpetuated by religion, but the Bible says the dead 'aren't aware of anything.' (Ecclesiastes 9:5,10). So if they're 'aware of nothing', they can't feel pain. (It's interesting, to me, how the accurate tenets of the Bible got twisted.) If this is so, then you raised a great question:

Such a belief is so strangely prevalent. Why?

Because Revelation 12:9 is, as it says, occurring everywhere. He's called "the ruler of this world." (John 12:31; John 14:30; compare 1 John 5:19) All he wants is to deceive people, and keep them from searching for the One True God.

Promoting false ideas that make God look evil, is one way of many to do that.

Why is God allowing this 'campaign of deceit' to continue for so long? Again, the Bible helps us to understand, by reading and meditating on Genesis 3:1-6 and Job 2:1-7.

Issues were raised in both accounts. They're in the process of being settled.

We may go through pain during our life -- what, 70 or 80 years? -- but then we die and RIP, until the Resurrection. John 5:28-29.

OK, I have a tendency to ramble....sorry.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Maybe it is because I am such a sicko but I can see religions making the argument for eternal or should I say lengthy stays in hell for not believing.

I was a horrible Christian so I will make the case from an exclusive Islamic point of view. Keep in mind the permanence of Jahan'nam is heavily debated still for many Muslims and even the higher classical ulima debated this a whole and most notable al-Ghazali who held very differing views.

But there are notions that hell is a matter of Allah's judgement and that only he knows what is just and fit for those in hell. Hell as a whole is deemed a matter of morality and less so about belief as there are sunnan that explicitly have Muhammad assuring paradise to non-Muslim individuals for their deeds and not faith. Hell is a means of purging sin and explicit ensuring humility of those who are punished.

This is taken into multiple insights since some ulama say that hell ensures belief in Allah while some say that it purges sinfulness. Those that say that it ensures belief in Allah express a notion that the purging of hell promotes the life of humility a Muslim man would have endured and functions in a very blunt matter as recompense for the crap Muslims had to put up with all their lives .

 

[Twilight Hue]

Do you believe that God would burn someone in hell forever for simply not believing in him? I'm amazed at how many Christians and Muslims actually believe that.

It is such a ridiculous and depressing belief, I can't fathom why anyone would love a God who would do that. Fearing such a God would make sense, but loving such a God seems sick to me.

Would you mind telling me what is so horrible about not believing in an invisible entity, that it merits eternal agony?

Eternal suffering for not believing in someone who is invisible and hides himself? Are you kidding? Such a belief is so strangely prevalent. Why?

Please explain what is loveable about such a God.

Well considering all the qualities and behaviors of God in the Old Testament and then you get to the New Testaments paradigm shift in attitude, you start wondering if God is actually some kind of a clever demon trying to entice people in by posing as an Almighty creator using the Bible as a lure to attract them all to his lair.

 

[Infernum]

God has never told me some people will burn in hell forever. Many people and religions have told me this and written about it though, but hey, people can say anything and imagine the weirdest things.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Do you believe that God would burn someone in hell forever for simply not believing in him? I'm amazed at how many Christians and Muslims actually believe that.

It is such a ridiculous and depressing belief, I can't fathom why anyone would love a God who would do that. Fearing such a God would make sense, but loving such a God seems sick to me.

Would you mind telling me what is so horrible about not believing in an invisible entity, that it merits eternal agony?

Eternal suffering for not believing in someone who is invisible and hides himself? Are you kidding? Such a belief is so strangely prevalent. Why?

Please explain what is loveable about such a God.

Yes, me too, it's just amazing how many Christians are taught that concept and believe in it.

The question that I have for those Christians that believe in that concept.Why would a God of love, have people burn in the lake of fire, for eternity ?

For those who have Children, knowing you love your children, would you burn your children in fire for eternity and you seeing your children burning for eternity.

So why would God of love for his children want to see his children burning for eternity before his eyes.

Those who are burning in the lake of fire, Are not God's children, But the children of the Devil, Satan's.
There's clearly a Big Difference, between who's children are who's ?

You did bring up some very good points in your Thread. Great job.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Do you believe that God would burn someone in hell forever for simply not believing in him? I'm amazed at how many Christians and Muslims actually believe that.

It is such a ridiculous and depressing belief, I can't fathom why anyone would love a God who would do that. Fearing such a God would make sense, but loving such a God seems sick to me.

Would you mind telling me what is so horrible about not believing in an invisible entity, that it merits eternal agony?

Eternal suffering for not believing in someone who is invisible and hides himself? Are you kidding? Such a belief is so strangely prevalent. Why?

Please explain what is loveable about such a God.

You look at this wrong. Imagine your on the 10th floor of a burning building and the only way out is to jump out the window into the net the firemen hold. Is it the firemen's fault you didn't jump and were burnt to a crisp.

 

[kjw47]

Do you believe that God would burn someone in hell forever for simply not believing in him? I'm amazed at how many Christians and Muslims actually believe that.

It is such a ridiculous and depressing belief, I can't fathom why anyone would love a God who would do that. Fearing such a God would make sense, but loving such a God seems sick to me.

Would you mind telling me what is so horrible about not believing in an invisible entity, that it merits eternal agony?

Eternal suffering for not believing in someone who is invisible and hides himself? Are you kidding? Such a belief is so strangely prevalent. Why?

Please explain what is loveable about such a God.

Meet the true God---Deuteronomy 30:19-- He set before ALL--LIFE or DEATH-- both are everlasting. Its by our choices that makes that determination, not with words.
Symbolism was taught in the NT about being cut off from God eternally and missing each new dawning day in Gods kingdom--that never ends.
The sadist God taught by blind guides have many deceived. They do not know God or his son. They teach fake ones. They are good at tickling ears though.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

The fire of Hell is meant to destroy the wicked. No one is tortured for eternity. Eternal torture is a false idea taughr by people who think they are Christian but do not know what the Bible teaches.