Is such a God loveable?

[Trailblazer]

No. There are some who will be punished, but not by God. They are punished by their malice towards others, and their rejection of God.

You are in control of your reality. So emotionally healthy people create healthy afterlives. Psychos, disturbed, and the violent are tortured by their own malice, their own violent impulses. They basically dream up enemies everywhere, and are constantly in pain. This is not God's doing. God wants us to get things right, not believe that if we mass-murder/suicide ourselves, the fact that God is loving means such behavior is rewarded. Nope, you're gonna get punished. But not because God is mean. Because your own personality will torture you.

I agree with most of what you said, with a few caveats. I think some people are mentally and/or emotionally disturbed through no fault of their own and not all people can recover from a difficult childhood. Also, there are those who have a genetic predisposition to depression or anxiety of psychosis and drugs cannot help all these people. So the upshot of this is that God knows the reasons for everything so God can forgive people if it was not their fault. God is a God of mercy and justice. But you are right that God does not have to forgive immoral people just because God is loving because that would be unjust, especially considering they hurt innocent people.

There is a difference between a psychological disorder and spiritual depravity. One is not responsible for the former, especially if they sought help and it did not help, or if they could not get any help. But one is responsible more spiritual depravity, because we all have free will and the same ability to choose between right and wrong. Admittedly this can be a struggle but those who make a sincere effort will be rewarded because that is in accordance with God's justice.

The following passage is kind of a synopsis of what I believe happens when we die. I think those that live in error refers to people who are immoral, not to nonbelievers.

“It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought. I swear by the Day Star that shineth above the horizon of Divine power! They that are the followers of the one true God shall, the moment they depart out of this life, experience such joy and gladness as would be impossible to describe, while they that live in error shall be seized with such fear and trembling, and shall be filled with such consternation, as nothing can exceed. Well is it with him that hath quaffed the choice and incorruptible wine of faith through the gracious favor and the manifold bounties of Him Who is the Lord of all Faiths…”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 171

 

[Samantha Rinne]

I stay wary of genetic dispositionism. It strikes me as entirely too similar to Calvinism, Roman-style fatalism, and Islamic kismet/imshallah.

All of these are comforting (in theory), but in practice are extremely damaging. They are a means of passing the buck short-term that lead to long-term spiritual paralysis.

Beware toxic fatalism, in its atheist and theist forms

Everything, good and bad, is up to you. If you goof off too much, and people start to lecture you about your job, it's important to remember they aren't being mean to you, you're getting karma.

It's not because God hates you. It's because you did something that has its own punishment. If I were to be a part of some cult, and I believed it was my sacred duty to kill all with the last name Andrews who wore purple hats "cuz gawd told me to" it honestly doesn't matter this god's word, it matters that what I did is extremely violent and has potential to hurt my soul.

 

[Trailblazer]

I stay wary of genetic dispositionism. It strikes me as entirely too similar to Calvinism, Roman-style fatalism, and Islamic kismet/imshallah.

All of these are comforting (in theory), but in practice are extremely damaging. They are a means of passing the buck short-term that lead to long-term spiritual paralysis.

Beware toxic fatalism, in its atheist and theist forms

Everything, good and bad, is up to you. If you goof off too much, and people start to lecture you about your job, it's important to remember they aren't being mean to you, you're getting karma.

It's not because God hates you. It's because you did something that has its own punishment. If I were to be a part of some cult, and I believed it was my sacred duty to kill all with the last name Andrews who wore purple hats "cuz gawd told me to" it honestly doesn't matter this god's word, it matters that what I did is extremely violent and has potential to hurt my soul.

It is according to my beliefs that everything we attain depends upon our own efforts.

“The incomparable Creator hath created all men from one same substance, and hath exalted their reality above the rest of His creatures. Success or failure, gain or loss, must, therefore, depend upon man’s own exertions. The more he striveth, the greater will be his progress.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 81-82

However, we have each been given a measure that has been pre-ordained by God.

“Know thou that all men have been created in the nature made by God, the Guardian, the Self-Subsisting. Unto each one hath been prescribed a pre-ordained measure, as decreed in God’s mighty and guarded Tablets. All that which ye potentially possess can, however, be manifested only as a result of your own volition. Your own acts testify to this truth…”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 149

We all have different capacities and we are all at different stages of development so effort exerted is within those parameters.... To those who much was given much is expected.

“From the exalted source, and out of the essence of His favor and bounty He hath entrusted every created thing with a sign of His knowledge, so that none of His creatures may be deprived of its share in expressing, each according to its capacity and rank, this knowledge. This sign is the mirror of His beauty in the world of creation. The greater the effort exerted for the refinement of this sublime and noble mirror, the more faithfully will it be made to reflect the glory of the names and attributes of God, and reveal the wonders of His signs and knowledge.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 262

 

[Axe Elf]

Do you believe that God would burn someone in hell forever for simply not believing in him? I'm amazed at how many Christians and Muslims actually believe that.

It is such a ridiculous and depressing belief, I can't fathom why anyone would love a God who would do that. Fearing such a God would make sense, but loving such a God seems sick to me.

Would you mind telling me what is so horrible about not believing in an invisible entity, that it merits eternal agony?

Eternal suffering for not believing in someone who is invisible and hides himself? Are you kidding? Such a belief is so strangely prevalent. Why?

Please explain what is loveable about such a God.

I'll address this without wading through the four pages of comments (yet, although I may come back to them later), so if someone else has already explained this, I apologize for my redundancy in advance.

First I will describe the afterlife using the Bible's own words, so that we're not talking about someone's interpretation of an interpretation.

"Then the devil who had led them astray [deceiving and seducing them] was hurled into the fiery lake of burning brimstone, where the beast and false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever (through the ages of the ages).

"Then I saw a great white throne and the One Who was seated upon it, from Whose presence and from the sight of Whose face earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. I [also] saw the dead, great and small; they stood before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life. And the dead were judged (sentenced) by what they had done [their whole way of feeling and acting, their aims and endeavors] in accordance with what was recorded in the books. And the sea delivered up the dead who were in it, death and Hades (the state of death or disembodied existence) surrendered the dead in them, and all were tried and their cases determined by what they had done [according to their motives, aims, and works]. Then death and Hades (the state of death or disembodied existence) were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s [name] was not found recorded in the Book of Life, he was hurled into the lake of fire." --Revelation 20:10-15 (Amplified Bible)

So we can see from the first sentence that the only ones who will be tormented day and night forever and ever are the devil, the beast, and the false prophet. Everyone else who has not been appointed to salvation is destroyed in the lake of fire, the second death. The first death destroys the body, the second death destroys the soul. So if you don't believe in God, then the likely outcome is the one that you expect anyway--nothingness, like before you were born. So God gives everyone what they expect--what's so unloveable about that?

 

[Samantha Rinne]

This is imagery, describing what the author of that verse sees. I would see...

A town on a floating island. Everyone I want in my life is on that island, and there are nearby islands you can reach if you wish to (although those ppl may not be as friendly). The town has a farm that grows all good things. And the entire thing begins with a marriage of me (and everyone else, but it's centered around me) to Christ. This is possibly because I've seen too much of The Good Place.

The other part, I would see as a cold empty house and a desolate world, where I am all alone. Hot weather, I like. Cold, not so much.

Heaven and Hell are beyond our puny human imaginations. The only certain fact is that it relates to our sense of nearness to God.

 

[outlawState]

And why does that torment need to last forever. Why can't God eventually set the person free?

2nd Law of Thermodynamics (!)

The soul is destroyed by God in Hell, says Jesus. Death is not reversible. What is destroyed cannot re-create itself. It must rely on God for its re-creation. Why should God re-create a soul that rejected him? God gives many chances in this life (to most). The way of the universe is that a man only has One soul. That is why it is precious and why we should take good care of it, and avoid paganism and idolatry and worthless things.

 

[Trailblazer]

How far does the delusion go. All the way to Beulah land. They actually sincerely believe that reality is this way, and all souls be judged this way.

So they talk to me this way, and judge me this way. And so does there God.

I hear you. I believe in God but they do the same thing to me; because I do not believe in Jesus the same way they believe in Jesus, I am going to hell...

God does not judge people this way, Christians do.

"How ignorant therefore the thought that God who created man, educated and nurtured him, surrounded him with all blessings, made the sun and all phenomenal existence for his benefit, bestowed upon him tenderness and kindness, and then did not love him. This is palpable ignorance, for no matter to what religion a man belongs even though he be an atheist or materialist nevertheless God nurtures him, bestows His kindness and sheds upon him His light."

('Abdu'l-Baha, Star of the West, Vol. 8, issue 7, p. 78)

 

[Cary Cook]

Well if someone is eternally evil, they should face everlasting punishment, at least til they repented.

But the assumption is that they who reject god, are eternally wicked, with no ability or ever wish to repent.

It escapes me that belief in God is needed whatsoever. That's assuming to even know God. And I find absolutely no presence of God anywhere, my whole life.

That's what's maddening about Christian ultimatums. I gotta know, trust, and believe and have faith in a deity I have no ability to experience in order to get to heaven. I gotta know that Noah , and Jonah are historical factual stories. And I have to rely on a book as my only source of evidence.

So I gotta pull me brains out, and forsake my mind and experience, and imbibe the faith to get to heaven.

And I'm assumed by Christians that I know it's all true and it's obvious, and I'm somehow sinfully suppressing this knowledge in total denial.

How far does the delusion go. All the way to Beulah land. They actually sincerely believe that reality is this way, and all souls be judged this way.

So they talk to me this way, and judge me this way. And so does there God.

So they draw their Final Battle lines with me, and call it loving their enemies. When I can see how they hate non believers. Especially those who have heard the message.

It's total insanity! Where they believe they are separate from the world. But they are as mean, and nasty and bitter spiteful as I've ever seen people. They get together and mock so called sinners for being filthy wretches, when they are supposed to be praying for us according to their book.

Totally agree. The problem is the belief that an assumed God to whom we are accountable wants us to believe some particular set of scriptures.

I assume a God to whom I'm accountable, and have asked for correction of errors nearly every night for 2 decades. The answer I've found so far is non-scriptural monotheism.