Is progressive revelation believable?

[JesusKnowsYou]

But how can Jesus Christ be the 'literal' Son of God and the Firstborn in 'spirit' at the same time?

What I said in post #754 was,

"He is the literal Son of God the Father in the flesh and the Firstborn in spirit."

The Lord Jesus Christ is the only mortal to have been sired by God the Father, through some process involving the Holy Spirit. His physical tabernacle was the product of a mortal mother and an immortal father. This is how He is literally the Only Begotten Son of God.

All of Mankind are the literal spirit children of God. Before we entered into mortality we dwelt with Him and the Lord Jesus Christ was known as Jehovah (Yahweh) and He was the Firstborn spirit child of God the Father and our Eldest spirit sibling.

1. Baha'u'llah is Christ Returned and therefore claims the same name "Christ."

I do not believe that Baha'u'llah was the Lord Jesus Christ returned because I believe that idea does not agree with the testimony of the scriptures concerning His actual Second Coming.

This idea is very offensive to me.

2. "And I will write on him My new name .. ," (Rev 3:12) [the Return of Jesus will have a new name.]

This verse is not talking about the Lord Jesus Christ receiving a new name.

These initial chapters in the Book of Revelation were instructions and promises given to John by the Lord Jesus Christ concerning the seven churches.

This chapter began with the Lord claiming that there were still those of the church in Sardis that were worthy and He then promised that,

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." (Revelation 3:5)

The "He that overcometh" is not a reference to the Lord Jesus Christ, but to any faithful servant who remains worthy and overcomes the world.

Then the Lord gave praise and admonition to those of the church in Philidelphia and then issued the following promises,

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." (Revelation 3:12)

The "Him that overcometh" is, again, not a reference to the Lord Jesus Christ, but to any faithful servant who remains worthy and overcomes the world.

Just as verse 5 mentions that those servants who remain worthy and overcome the world are promised "white raiment", their names included in the book of life and confessed before the Father and angels - verse 12 mentions that those worthy servants will also receive - a permanent place in God's temple and a new name.

None of these verses spoke about the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ or that He will receive a new name at any time.

3. "I still have many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit, when He the Spirit of Truth is come, he will guide you unto all truth."
(John 16:12-13) [Spirit of Truth is a new name and another identity than Jesus as Christ says "he" will guide you, not "I" will guide you after "I (Jesus) go away."]

The Lord Jesus Christ was promising His disciples that the Holy Spirit (Spirit of Truth) would come to them and guide them after His departure.

Many claim that this promise was initially fulfilled in Acts 2 on the Day of Pentecost, but I believe it was manifest even in Acts 1 when they chose a new Apostle to fill the empty seat in the Twelve vacated by Judas Iscariot.

This would have been a very empty promise if this "Spirit of Truth" had been a reference to Baha'u'llah, because the Lord's disciples were long dead by that time and never would have received the promised guidance to truth.

4. Isaiah prophesied Messiah's name would be Emmanuel (Isaiah 7:14) which means "God with us" and not Jesus which means "He who saves." [Names therefore are titles in the Bible rather than surnames and refer to descriptions and roles rather than exact phonetic names. Christ is not the last name of Jesus. Therefore the Old
Testament prophecy of the Messiah being named Emmanuel is not literally fulfilled by Jesus' name but in fact "God with us" did happen spiritually with the
appearance of Jesus to the Jews.]

5. Jesus had many names: "... And his name shall be called Wonderful,
Counselor, the Mighty God, the
Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace ... (Isaiah 6-9:6) "These names could also be interpreted as applying to Christ's Return, and Revelations adds to the names of Christ's Return: "His name is called the Word of God" (Rev 19:13); "And He has on His robe and on His thigh a new name written: King of Kings and Lord of Lords" (Rev 19:16)

The Lord Jesus Christ has many titles and names, but the name that we have been instructed to call upon is the one (both name and title) that He received in mortality, which is Jesus Christ.

It would not be incorrect to refer to Him as Emmanuel, Counselor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace, Jehovah, God of Israel, Son of Righteousness, the Word, Son of Man, Lord, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Alpha and Omega, Adonai, etc - but the name and title He bore when He completed His Atoning Sacrifice was Jesus Christ.

Notice how none of the names and titles mentioned were Baha'u'llah.

6. The prophet Elijah never died and ascended into heaven (2 Kings 2:11) but
returned in the spirit of Elijah yet in the body of John the Baptist according to Jesus (M," 17,10-13) even though John the Baptist himself denied he was literally the return of Elijah when asked by the Jews (John L19-21). Therefore by insisting that Baha'u'llah have the literal name "Jesus" and/or the same physical body of Jesus to be the Return of Christ, Christians make the same mistake the Jews did in denying Jesus because John the Baptist's name and body were not literally Elijah's.

I understand that this is a very confusing topic and it is mostly due to the misinterpretations had among the Jews.

The Lord Jesus Christ did not teach that John the Baptist was the prophet Elijah returned or that he was possessed by the spirit of Elijah.

Rather, John the Baptist preached by the "spirit and power of an Elias", which is the mission of a "forerunner". His mission in mortality was to herald the coming of the Lord in the flesh and make His paths straight.

Noah also has been described as an "Elias" because he came and preached repentance before the waters of the Flood. The angel Gabriel also came to both Mary and Zacharias by the "spirit and power of an Elias".

I. Baha'u'llah is the Return of Christ Jesus and therefore is this one mediator.

I understand that this is your belief, but I cannot accept it. I deny it to my very center.

"Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." (Matthew 24:23-24)

2. "And I will write on him My new name ... " (Rev 3:12) [Return of Jesus will have a new name.]

This verse has nothing at all to do with the Lord Jesus Christ or His Second Coming.

3. Howbeit, when He the Spirit of Truth is come, he will guide you unto all truth."
(John 16,12,13) [Spirit of Truth is a new name as Christ says "he" will guide you,
not "I" will guide you. Some Christians say the Spirit of Truth came at Pentecost but, if this were true, the Christians would have all truth and the Trinity would not be a mystery and there wouldn't be 23,000 divisions of Christianity."]

You cannot apply a promise made between the Lord and His personal disciples to all of Christendom.

Obviously, not all Christians have the gift of the Holy Spirit.

4. "And [ will pray the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that he may
abide with you forever." (John 14:16) [There will be another helper than the one mediator, Christ Jesus.]

A "helper" or "Comforter" is not a "mediator".

This is another reference to the Holy Spirit.

5. "For if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if! depart [ will send
Him to you." (John 16,7) [Christ again makes it clear that the helper that is to come has a separate identity from the physical one mediator Christ Jesus who is to "go away."]

Yes, the Holy Spirit is not the Lord Jesus Christ, although they are both members of the Godhead along with the Father.

 

[od19g6]

Okay, how were Christians supposed to interpret these verses?
Matt. 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Thess. 2 1:6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you
7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed.
Rev. 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

'Sorry about the late reply, just was doing some research'.

Firstly we have to be careful not to take the scriptures totally and completely literally.

The revelations is more than just mere information, these are mystical and divine teachings. When you're reading and studying divine scriptures you have to have that as the mindset.

Baha'u'llah says:
"Know verily that the purpose underlying all these symbolic terms and abstruse allusions, which emanate from the Revealers of God’s holy Cause, hath been to test and prove the peoples of the world; that thereby the earth of the pure and illuminated hearts may be known from the perishable and barren soil. From time immemorial such hath been the way of God amidst His creatures, and to this testify the records of the sacred books".

Heaven and hell are not places that we're actually sent to but it is a state of the mind, heart and soul. The baha'i scriptures teaches that heaven is essentially being close to God and accepting our spiritual reality and hell is essentially being remote from God and denying our spiritual reality.

 

[od19g6]

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed to be the Mujaddid (revivor of Islam) of the 14th Islamic century, and in 1891 he declared that he was the promised Messiah (“Second Coming of Christ”) and Mahdi.

Sounds like he's making the same claims as your prophet. Why is yours right and theirs wrong?

He's actually not.

The islamic prophecy of the Mahdi and the return of Christ are two separate figures. Mirza ghulam ahmad is essentially claiming to be two people in one.


'Some of the prophecies Related to the Báb [the Mahdi] in the Traditions'.

The following are prophecies about the Mahdi from the major books
of Sunni hadíth. Bahá'ís believe that the Báb fulfilled the prophecies
about the Mahdi:


'The Mahdi will be a Descendant of Muhammad'.

From the Sunan of Abú Dáwud:
Narrated by Umm Salamah, Ummu'l-Mu'minín: The Prophet said: The Mahdiwill be of my family, of the descendants of Fațimah.

The Báb belonged to a family that was well known to be descendants
of the Prophet Muhammad through Fáțimah.


'The Mahdi will Rule for Seven Years'

From the Sunan of Abú Dáwud:
Narrated Abú Sa'id al-Khudri: The Prophet said: The Mahdi will be of my stock... he will rule for seven years

The ministry of the Bab ended in its seventh year.


'Black Flags will Proceed from Khurasan in the Time of the Mahdi'

From the Musnad of Ibn Hanbal:
Thawbán reported that the Messenger of Allah said: When you see
black standards coming from Khurasan go to them for Allah's caliph
the Mahdi will be among them.

During the ministry of the Báb, some of his followers proceeded from
Khurasan with a black standard.



'Prophecies Related to Bahá'u'lláh
(the Return of Christ) in the Traditions'.

The following are prophecies from the major books of Sunni hadíth
which Bahá'ís believe were fulfilled by Bahá'u'lláh. Bahá'ís believe that Bahá'u'lláh was the return of Christ (al-Masih):


'His Ministry will be for 40 Years'.

From the Sunan of Abú Dáwud:
Narrated by Abú Hurayra: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said:
He (Jesus) will descend (to the earth). . . He will destroy the
Antichrist (the Dajjál) and will live on the earth for 40 years and then
he will die.

Bahá'u'lláh's ministry lasted 40 years (1852-92).

Allah will Change the Arab People for Persians

From the Şahih of at-Tirmidhí:
Abú Hurayra said: Some of the companions of the Messenger of Allah
said: 'O Messenger of Allah! Who
are those people about whom Allah has said that if we turn back (from
the Path), He will substitute in our stead another people and they
would not be like us (i.e. Qur'án 47:38)?' And Salman (the Persian)
was beside the Messenger of Allah and the Messenger of Allah struck
him (on the thigh) and took Salman and said: "This man and his
people. By the One in whose hand is my soul! Were faith to be
suspended in the Pleiades men from among the Persians would attain
unto it.

The majority of the early followers of the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh were
Persians.


'The Last Remaining Supporter of the Mahdi will come to 'Akká'.

Inal-Futuhát al-Makkiyyah, Shaykh Muhyi ad-Dín ibn al-Arabí records
the following hadíth concerning the Mahdi and his supporters or
ministers (wuzará):
He (the Mahdi) will emerge at a time of decline in religion. Allah will
constrain through him what was not constrained though the Qur'án,
such that a man who is ignorant, cowardly and miserly one evening
will be transformed to being learned, brave and generous on the
morrow... He will witness the most mighty battle (Armageddon), the
banquet of Allah, upon the plain of 'Akká. He will banish tyranny and
those who espouse it and he will revive religion... His martyrs will
be the best of martyrs and his trusted ones the most excellent of
trustees. In order to help him, Allah has kept hidden in a secret place
a people whom He has made aware of the concealed and revealed
realities of things and of whatever Allah has ordained for His servants.
And they will make their decisions through their consultations.. .
And his supporters whom Allah has caused to help him - in accor-
dance with His words 'It is incumbent upon Us to help the believers
(Qur'án 30:47)' - they will follow in the footsteps of those of the
companions (of the Prophet) who held true to the covenant that they
had made with Allah. And they will all be Persians, there being no
Arabs among them, but they will speak Arabic... They are the most
favoured of the supporters and the most excellent of the trustees...
And all of them will be killed except one who will be upon the plain
of 'Akká, the divine table that Allah has laid out for all creatures.

The Báb (the Mahdi) emerged at the time of the decline of the religion
of Islam and ordained new laws and teachings to revive religion.

Concerning his leading followers (the text uses the word vazir, plural
wuzará, which can be translated as 'supporters' or 'ministers' but which
I have rendered here as 'leading followers'), they were mostly Persiane
but being of the religious class they spoke Arabic. All of the leadin
disciples of the Báb were martyred in Iran and, of the rest, the most
prominent was Bahá'u'lláh, who was exiled to 'Akká in Syria This
Tradition mentions making decisions through consultation, which
is what the Bahá'ís do. The table with food laid our is also referred to in the Qur'án (5:112-15) as being a miracle of
Christ, here mentioned in relation to the returned Christ. Bahá'ís consider that it refers to a heavenly feast of spiritual food.

All this is from the book: islam and the baha'i faith.

 

[od19g6]

Sorry about the late reply, just was doing some research.

your quote;In my understanding religion comes to the world to let human beings know what they really are: spiritual beings.
MY ANSWER: Religion is a creation of mankind. It's mankind telling you this. On the other hand, everyone should already know they are Spiritual beings. Since this physical world has so much sensory input, many choose to see only that instead of reality.

How in the world everyone should already know they are spiritual beings?
That's like telling a baby that it should already know how to read. Human beings spirituality has to be refined by the Manifestations.

Your quote:But we do need divine education that can only be given by the Manifestation.
MY ANSWER: What manifestation do you speak of? Your religion? Divine education does not require nor has ever required a manifestation. This entire physical universe is the divine education.

The all of Them especially the Manifestation for this time and age. Of course divine education requires a Manifestation because they're the divine Teachers. We wouldn't even know of divine education in the first place if it wasn't for the Manifestations.

Where is the exact line between good and bad? Do you think God is defining this for you?

Yes, God defines all things spiritual including what's good and what's bad.

When you start to know God, you realize the genius behind everything. When you start to Understand why God does things, you start to Understand God..

We will never know God completely. God is far beyond His creation. The only way to know God is through His names and attributes.

God returns our actions back to us. This is not punishment. This is to teach us what our actions really mean.

Yes, I agree.

You know, it's not holy book teachings that make people choose good. It's those lessons we are living.there.

Nothing can't make a human being do anything. It has to be the human being's own choice to except divine education and do good.

This world is a multilevel classroom. There will be those learning lessons you might already have learned.

Yes, I agree.

All the secrets of God and the universe stare us all in the face.

One again you have to understand the human being wouldn't even know of God in the first place if it wasn't for the divine Messengers.

When you can look at this world and it's people and see a MASTERPIECE.

Your right, especially the human being. The human being has the potential to display all of the names and attributes of God at the highest level. We are God's most perfect creation.

 

[od19g6]

Thats not a valid argument to put down someone elses prophet and say "Mines better".

I'm not saying at all that one Prophet is better than another Prophet. I don't know where did you get that assertion from. All of Prophets / Messengers / Manifestations are holds an divine massage and is valid.

 

[od19g6]

I don't know if I answered already but if I didn't here's my reply.

You, me, your clothes, the road outside, the planet and every part of every atom that exists, and all energy, and all the space in between IS a part of the whole, which is God. One only has to perceive that for oneself. Your idea of messengers from God is strange to me, especially when they write such strange ideas down.

Let me ask you something. Who taught you what you know?

How do you know of God in the first place?

His world, if it came about, would be much more terrifying than Orwell's 1984. Honest.

So what terrifies you about Bahá'u'lláh's vision for world unity and peace?

We are WHAT!!! ?
When mankind gets so stuck up and arrogant about itself

This is not about arrogance, the human being definitely has the potential to display all of the names and attributes of God at the highest level. Now other life forms can also display the names and attributes of God but only some of them and at a low level.

The human being has dominion over all creation. We are the most perfect of all of God's creations.

If you want to know God the best way to do that is to know the human being.

 

[od19g6]

With the above in mind, please could you tell me what Bahauallah taught about wealth and materialism?

I've asked you before, I think

Firstly Baha'u'llah teaches that we need to get rid of the extremes of wealth and poverty.

Obviously spiritual wealth is more important than material wealth, but if a person has gained material wealth by honest means than it's not blameworthy.


Bahá'u'lláh has said:
'He commanded limitation of the extremes of wealth and poverty, and ever since, legislation for the establishment of minimum subsistence levels and for graduated taxation of wealth by income and inheritance taxes has been a constant concern. He commanded the abolition of both chattel and economic slavery, and ever since, the progress toward emancipation has been a ferment in all parts of the world'.


Abdu'l-baha: son of, successor and official interpreter of Baha'u'llah's writings has said:
'Consider to what a remarkable extent the spirituality of people has been overcome by materialism so that spiritual susceptibility seems to have vanished, divine civilization become decadent, and guidance and knowledge of God no longer remain. All are submerged in the sea of materialism'.


Abdu'l-baha:
'Wealth is praiseworthy in the highest degree, if it is acquired by an individual’s own efforts and the grace of God, in commerce, agriculture, art and industry, and if it be expended for philanthropic purposes'.


Bahá'u'lláh:
'They who are possessed of riches, however, must have the utmost regard for the poor... and well is it with the rich who bestow their riches on the needy and prefer them before themselves

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But you did!

No, as you took that the wrong way.

I hope you are now clear it was not meant that way, but meant to show you no material background will give you the required skills to accept a Manifestation of God, as they come and challenge all our preconceived thoughts.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

I'm not saying at all that one Prophet is better than another Prophet. I don't know where did you get that assertion from. All of Prophets / Messengers / Manifestations are holds an divine massage and is valid.

This is what you said.

"Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is like the mature and knowledgeable child among the other children in the classroom.

Baha'u'llah is like the actual adult educated Teacher of the classroom."

Cheers.

 

[od19g6]

This is what you said.

"Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is like the mature and knowledgeable child among the other children in the classroom.

Baha'u'llah is like the actual adult educated Teacher of the classroom."

Cheers.

Ok, correct. So what is your question?

 

[firedragon]

Ok, correct. So what is your question?

You read the question and you already gave an answer that conflicts with your own admission and by the way it was a non answer. Thanks. And cheers.

 

[oldbadger]

I don't know if I answered already but if I didn't here's my reply.

Let me ask you something. Who taught you what you know?

How do you know of God in the first place?

Not 'Who'........ more exact to tell you 'What taught me'. Nature taught me what I know. The closest manifestation of God that I can see is Nature, which of course includes everything from Galaxies to leaves, etc.

So what terrifies you about Bahá'u'lláh's vision for world unity and peace?

There would be no unity, and no peace, and individual freedom would be crushed.
If you reverse every Bahai claim then a more clear picture of its outcome could be seen.
A World government that believes it cannot go wrong, whether it chooses that right is left, or up is down, guided by God....... that would be the wicked. As in 'Stars Wars' movies, the rebels would be the heroes.

This is not about arrogance, the human being definitely has the potential to display all of the names and attributes of God at the highest level. Now other life forms can also display the names and attributes of God but only some of them and at a low level.

And that is the face of 'Humble Bahai'.
If you put down the religious zeal and pick up the science, you have no idea about what life forms can think faster, higher, more exactly than humans.

I suggest you put away these arrogant ideas and humble yourself before most of Nature's creatures, any of which are more tenacious than you or me in their own ways.

The human being has dominion over all creation. We are the most perfect of all of God's creations.

If you want to know God the best way to do that is to know the human being.

A crazy idea. You have no idea about what is out there in the 100 billion galaxies of this one universe, each containing 100 billion star systems. And you think we are 'it'? That's too dangerous to be let pick up power in this tiny planet, imo.

 

[od19g6]

You read the question and you already gave an answer that conflicts with your own admission and by the way it was a non answer. Thanks. And cheers.

Are you implying that mirza ghulam ahmad is a valid Prophet?

I've already explained why that is incorrect.

So nothing is in conflict.

 

[oldbadger]

Bahá'u'lláh has said:
'He commanded limitation of the extremes of wealth and poverty, and ever since, legislation for the establishment of minimum subsistence levels and for graduated taxation of wealth by income and inheritance taxes has been a constant concern. He commanded the abolition of both chattel and economic slavery, and ever since, the progress toward emancipation has been a ferment in all parts of the world'.

Bahai should not pretend that mankind's efforts to increase human-rights are because Bahauallah wrote something.

Bahai has done nothing for the poore in 150 years...... or do you know better?

Abdu'l-baha: son of, successor and official interpreter of Baha'u'llah's writings has said:
'Consider to what a remarkable extent the spirituality of people has been overcome by materialism so that spiritual susceptibility seems to have vanished, divine civilization become decadent, and guidance and knowledge of God no longer remain. All are submerged in the sea of materialism'

Abdu'l-baha:
'Wealth is praiseworthy in the highest degree, if it is acquired by an individual’s own efforts and the grace of God, in commerce, agriculture, art and industry, and if it be expended for philanthropic purposes'.

Bahá'u'lláh:
'They who are possessed of riches, however, must have the utmost regard for the poor... and well is it with the rich who bestow their riches on the needy and prefer them before themselves

Dreadful!
Bahai has gone BACKWARDS!
The early Abrahamic laws put Bahai to shame.
Now see the poor-laws of the Old Testament.

Ex.22:21
Ex.22. 24
Lev.19:9 - 10
Lev. 23:22
Lev.19:9 & 10
Lev. 23:22
Deut. 14:28-29
Deut. 15:2
Deut. 15:7
Deut. 15:9
Deut. 15:11
Deut.24:6
Deut. 24:10
Deut. 24:12
Deut. 24:17
Deut. 24:19 -20)
Deut. 24:21

 

[firedragon]

Are you implying that mirza ghulam ahmad is a valid Prophet?

I've already explained why that is incorrect.

So nothing is in conflict.

Nope. Im not implying anything. If you read through the comments maybe you would understand. Its pretty easy actually.

 

[Vinayaka]

Are you implying that mirza ghulam ahmad is a valid Prophet?

I've already explained why that is incorrect.

So nothing is in conflict.

As an outsider looking in, and as a person who doesn't believe in prophets at all, I see all self-declared prophets as being rather similar. Each group, of the 50 or so larger groups, and another 1000+ individuals who claim it on their own, all of them say their guy is right and all the others are wrong. To top it off, they claim 'proof'. There is no real proof. So there is a commonality of error in logic.

 

[Earthtank]

thank you for your reply.

If I may, the baha'i faith are not taking claims 'against' christians, jews and muslims.

Intentional or unintentionally it is because, this new “progressive revelation” contradicts all the past ones.

The message is simply progressive revelation, the prophecies are fulfilled and that there is a new and resent Messenger that God has sent to us in this time and age.

This is a perfect example of how it contradicts them and whether intentional or not, it’s taking a position/making a claim against the Christianity and Islam (maybe Judaism too) with this “new and resent Messenger that God has sent to us in this time and age”

In terms of the misunderstanding of the term hell, it's not a place that we're actually sent to but it is a state of the mind

Agree to disagree as there are verses that clearly and unambiguously state people will be sent to/thrown in/ spend eternity in hell and that place is described, that goes beyond a state of mind.

'Judgement day' comes in every age when God sends a Manifestation to the human world.

Again, another contradiction and whether intentional or not, it its taking a stand against the previous scriptures therefore, 1) God has changed his message or 2) God has forgotten what he has revealed. Either option is not befitting of a God that is supposed to be transcendent and objective throughout time. Judgement day in Islam and Christianity is basically the final hour and there’s nothing after that, you saying it comes in every day and age contradicts those 2.

You can look at this like a doctor treating patients.

Sorry to keep saying this but, once again you have displayed lack of consistency in God by using the example of this doctor. If, the medication (religion and message) was not good enough in the past and therefore needs to be changed, why should I trust the “doctor” this time? The previous medication did not work now he wants to change the diagnosis, sounds like this doctor does not know his patients (aka creation). Once again I say this, if God (doctor) is supposed to be all knowing and all the good and powerful stuff then, why treat patients (humans) differently overtime by sending different messages? If I made a phone, the manual I release on day 1 would be the manual on how to use the phone because I was the one who researched, designed and eventually made the phone then, I send my team out with that manual, if my phone does not change over time (as we humans have not) then why change the manual?

You keep saying that the baha'i faith contradicts the past religions, it doesn't contradict anything.

I think in the words above I have clearly shown how it contradicts and disagrees them.

Yes, they all called for unity of people but it was limited.

I do not know what you mean by “it was limited” I do not recall Christianity and Islam limiting the unity of people. Were/are they?

It was not until the baha'i revelation that the call for the whole planet to unify was really upheld.

I am sorry but, I need you to explain this a little more and please show me a real world example of this as I honestly do not understand what you are trying to really say.

One again you keep talking about disagreement and contradiction, it's not about that.

Yes I do because the 3 religions I mentioned do in fact contradict each other yet, you are trying to convince me that the Bahai faith is progressive revelation to that which contradicts each other. How does one or something progressively move forward and build upon 3 contradicting ideas/religions?

Kind of like schooling, you have pre school, kindergarten, elementary school, middle school, high school and college, all according to the age and the maturity of the person.

Yes, and 1+1 is the same answer in pre school all the way to college but, this “progressive revelation” is now changing the answer/message overtime.

are just different chapters of God's one book.

Different chapters that seem to contradict other chapters supposedly revealed/written by the same author. Let me give you an example of how the Bahai faith, by its very nature contradicts the previous scriptures.



Jews pray 3 times a day

Muslims pray 5 times a day

Christians pray (not including Sunday) whenever they want, some books say 3 times some say 7 some say daily is not required as long as you follow Christ

How many times a day does the Bahai faith pray?



Muslims Fast a whole month (29-30 days) for Ramadan. NO food or drink from sunset till sunrise.

Jews have mandatory fast days but, not a fasting month.

Christians fast on Lent

Do the Bahai followers fast?



So, just with these 2 issues, you see the differences between the 3, please explain to me how Bahai faith is able to agree with all 3 without contradictions?



Also, I ask this with all due respect, but, why should anyone accept the Bahai faith over any other region?

 

[Bird123]

Sorry about the late reply, just was doing some research.



How in the world everyone should already know they are spiritual beings?
That's like telling a baby that it should already know how to read. Human beings spirituality has to be refined by the Manifestations.



The all of Them especially the Manifestation for this time and age. Of course divine education requires a Manifestation because they're the divine Teachers. We wouldn't even know of divine education in the first place if it wasn't for the Manifestations.



Yes, God defines all things spiritual including what's good and what's bad.



We will never know God completely. God is far beyond His creation. The only way to know God is through His names and attributes.




Yes, I agree.



Nothing can't make a human being do anything. It has to be the human being's own choice to except divine education and do good.



Yes, I agree.



One again you have to understand the human being wouldn't even know of God in the first place if it wasn't for the divine Messengers.



Your right, especially the human being. The human being has the potential to display all of the names and attributes of God at the highest level. We are God's most perfect creation.

You limit yourself in so many ways when you make rules for yourself of what can or can not be.

 

[od19g6]

Exactly like so many others have said.

???

 

[od19g6]

You limit yourself in so many ways when you make rules for yourself of what can or can not be.

Your statement is very vague.

Care to explain what you mean by the statement?