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Is progressive revelation believable?

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Well you know if it wasn't for the Messengers we wouldn't even know about God in the first place.
But Baha's have said that no culture or people were left without guidance. But, in all the ancient religions and religions of tribal societies, there are gods, god, goddesses, devils and all sorts of other things. Somebody was giving out misinformation.


God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell

the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Firstly we have to be careful not to take the scriptures totally and completely literally.
There is no indications that these verses were not to be taken literally. Because of that, I will accept that those Christian writers were wrong and made this stuff up. But not that they knew it was not true and were writing metaphorically. Like how Terry Sampson put it... The cowardly, the murderers and the rest of these horrible people would be sent to a metaphorical fiery lake. No, I think the writers were trying to scare the literal *#%^ out of people. So they were lying to try and scare them and there is no real devil or hell. Now we know that turning away from the light is where hell is, right?


He will destroy the
Antichrist (the Dajjál) and will live on the earth for 40 years and then
he will die.
Bahá'u'lláh's ministry lasted 40 years (1852-92).
How many Bible verses get changed from days to years or months to days then to years... but in this case it is literally 40 years? But no... it is not literally 40 years that he was alive. His ministry lasted 40 years. So there is still some "massaging" of things to make them work. Is that okay to "massage" a prophecy? Or, should it be dead on exact?

The Lord Jesus Christ was promising His disciples that the Holy Spirit (Spirit of Truth) would come to them and guide them after His departure.
Unfortunately, I have to agree with JesusKnowsYou, in context these verses are about the Holy Spirit. Now if you ask me if all those things really happened, then I'd say there is a real good chance that they didn't. Which is different than saying the events were "symbolic". I'm saying they could very well have been flat out made up. But, Baha'is can't have that, because they need to believe in the Bible and the NT, yet deny things in it also... thus, making them true, but in a metaphorical way.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It's nice when individual people run charities, Tony.
Bahai has not got a Poor-law system in place and working.

Questions!
What is the name of the Chief Executive of Friends of the brilliant Star?

EDIT:

JUST CKECKED IT OUT!

This is described by the au gov as a small charity with $980 exprenses, under $5000 donations helping a small circle of children.

Is this the asnswer that you want tio give for my question: 'Does Bahai have provision layed down for the poor in a Bahai World? These 'pens and pencils for kids charities, do they often go hand in hand with child indoctrination lessons as standard, possibly?

Well done OB, you are able to find fault in every effort.

Even when I show how Faith works on a community level, that is done on a global scale.

Time to go. Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I'm not saying at all that one Prophet is better than another Prophet. I don't know where did you get that assertion from. All of Prophets / Messengers / Manifestations are holds an divine massage and is valid.
But some people are false prophets. And by their fruits you don't know them. Religions that were started by people that Baha'is don't believe were manifestations have done very well in producing good people.

Are you implying that mirza ghulam ahmad is a valid Prophet?
So what was the final answer? No?

The other thing is that other religions or groups say the same thing ... "Our faith is the real deal and we can prove it." Mormons, Jehovah's Witness, Satya Sai Baba followers, Meher Baba followers, Ammadiyya Muslims, Muslims in general. Christians in general. Even individuals about themselves, and we have a coupld of those on this forum. (Not all to be sure!) So it's not a new message ... the idea that 'I have the truth, and I can prove it."
Jesus has his proofs. Hell, he rose from the dead... No, not acceptable proof. Baha'is say it didn't literally happen. Mormons? Jesus came to the Americas? I doubt it. Do Baha'is? Yet, Mormons our great people. And so on, religious leaders claiming all kinds of things, but their followers can be very spiritual and holy people.

It's really not our proofs, it's Baha'u'llah's proofs that He is a legitimate Prophet / Messenger / Manifestation.

It's not repetitive unless you're denying the proofs.
We are questioning them and don't always get satisfactory answers. Even though we try... and we try... We can't get no. No satisfactory answers... Ah no, no, no.

It has been offered many, many times by the Baha'i on this forum that the proof of the Messenger is their own self, their life and their Message.
And Gee, why don't people believe it? Nearly 200 years in and people are still doubting Baha'u'llah? Yes. Not all the answers make sense.

The key here is that one can make up their own mind as to what the Messengers have said in their Holy Books
That is the key to disaster. What we need is someone that can tell us how to interpret all the old Holy Books and make sense of them. Then we can follow that person and listen to whatever he tells us is true. Wouldn't that be better?

You know any one of us can only personally investigate some of the alleged truth that's out there. So the short cut is to take what the Baha'is are offering and come to realize Baha'u'llah makes the most sense and quit investigating and only listen to him?

Problem is... can and will one religion ever fit all? There is no such thing a school grade type of progression in religion. The old "first grade" religions are still working for people and evolving. Maybe sometimes better than the Baha'i Faith. After all, how perfect are any of the local Baha'i communities?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Well done OB, you are able to find fault in every effort.

Even when I show how Faith works on a community level, that is done on a global scale.

Time to go. Regards Tony
Yeah..... I do try to nail BS, Tony.
I wrote that Bahai has no written legislation for the poor (like the OT does), and you send me the name of some small private charity in AU, and don't want to answer my question about who the chief executive is, or whether the MO is to dish out Bahai literature, teaching and stuff to kids.

Now....... let's try and show you the difference between a charity and a written law.
Charities are optional, Laws are not, Tony, and in 150+ years Bahai has produced nothing in its system, no embryo for future provision for the poor, and its taxation program money (for that) seems to have flown to other areas of interest.

So..... No Tony, we wouldn't let the members be unaware of the difference.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
.....
...............spiritual energies are released into the world.
.......................

Hello again......... On several occasions you have mentioned the word 'spiritual'.

I have already asked you ...'Do you believe in spirits?' and 'Do you believe in mediums?'

Could you answer that, please?
 

od19g6

Member
Hello again......... On several occasions you have mentioned the word 'spiritual'.

I have already asked you ...'Do you believe in spirits?' and 'Do you believe in mediums?'

Could you answer that, please?

Hello.

To be honest with you one of the reasons why sometimes I don't reply right away is because there's a lot of big responses from different users and I'm trying to get to them.

Another reason is that to be honest I don't go on forums that much and I'm not one of those fast typers.

So I'm on here trying to reply to people the best I can.

I'll answer you in just a minute.
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Hello.

To be honest with you one of the reasons why sometimes I don't reply right away is because there's a lot of big responses from different users and I'm trying to get to them.

Another reason is that to be honest I don't go on forums that much and I'm not one of those fast typers.

So I'm on here trying to reply to people the best I can.

I'll answer you in just a minute.
Hey od19g6, before you go too far away... What is the official order of progression between the major religions? Then can you show how religious/spiritual teaching progressed from one to another between the first four?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Hello.

To be honest with you one of the reasons why sometimes I don't reply right away is because there's a lot of big responses from different users and I'm trying to get to them.

Another reason is that to be honest I don't go on forums that much and I'm not one of those fast typers.

So I'm on here trying to reply to people the best I can.

I'll answer you in just a minute.
Ok.... Fair enough, but to be honest with you, you could have answered in one word, a yes or a no, but you wrote hundreds of words to defer

But when you feel ready, please do tell us whether you actually do believe in spirits, genuine mediums, spiritual healers, Seers, and such?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Hey od19g6, before you go too far away... What is the official order of progression between the major religions? Then can you show how religious/spiritual teaching progressed from one to another between the first four?
Both words, teaching and spiritual, seem like deception gimmicks to me.

No part of what of Baha'i sells seems like teaching. Imagine a double glazing salesperson calling to teach their prospective customers. :D

And imagine an advert for a salesperson 'Sales person with spirit qualities sought'.

My perception of the word spiritual is a person detached from materialism, self subsisting from nature, in harmony with nature,...... maybe that's distorted, but I certainly don't think of humans as any more spiritual than a curlew on the foreshore, a buzzard on high, or a dolphin, etc .

Baha'i throw that word to left and right meaninglessly, imo.
 

od19g6

Member
Hey od19g6, before you go too far away... What is the official order of progression between the major religions? Then can you show how religious/spiritual teaching progressed from one to another between the first four?

Hi.
Ok, Sure.

In the order:
Adam
Noah
Abraham
Krishna: Hinduism
Zoroaster: Zoroastrianism
Moses: judaism
the Buddha: buddhism
Jesus Christ: christianity
Prophet Muhammad: islam
the Bab: babism
Baha'u'llah: baha'i faith
the next One will come after the year 2863

There were also Prophets / Messengers / Manifestations that predates Adam but it is not recorded. I've also heard about the sabians.


Like I said I'm not an historian.

Things like food laws, dress codes, what can you have as pets, weddings.
All those have been altered, tweaked or changed completely. And that authority always comes with the new Manifestation that comes in every time and age.

You going to have take a look for yourself on the specifics of though laws from each revelation.


P.s. I'll answer more of your questions very soon.
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Why do you consider it "unfortunate" to agree with me?

Do I smell or something?
Something stinks, but I don't think it's you. It's "unfortunate" for the Baha'is. It's unfortunate that if in context the verses about the "comforter" are about the Holy Spirit. It's unfortunate that Baha'is say they believe all religions are one, and then say Jesus did not rise from the dead. It's unfortunate that Baha'is say they believe in the Bible, but they say that somebody changed the story about Abraham taking his son to be sacrificed. Baha'is say it was Ishmael not Isaac. It's unfortunate that Baha'is are supposed to be clearing everything up, but they have only added more questions and reasons to doubt all religions.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Hi.
Ok, Sure.

In the order:
Adam
Noah
Abraham
Krishna: Hinduism
Zoroaster: Zoroastrianism
Moses: judaism
the Buddha: buddhism
Jesus Christ: christianity
Prophet Muhammad: islam
the Bab: babism
Baha'u'llah: baha'i faith
the next One will come after the year 2863

There were also Prophets / Messengers / Manifestations that predates Adam but it is not recorded. I've also heard about the sabians.


Like I said I'm not an historian.

Things like food laws, dress codes, what can you have as pets, weddings.
All those have been altered, tweaked or changed completely. And that authority always comes with the new Manifestation that comes in every time and age.

You going to have take a look for yourself on the specifics of though laws from each revelation.


P.s. I'll answer more of your questions very soon.
Four of the first six are all from Judaism. What did Hinduism teach before the "Gita" and Krishna? From that order, spiritual truth has to go from Judaism to Hinduism to Zoroastrianism back to Judaism, then to Buddhism. But every people and culture had a religion. Those religions are not even part of the mix. Were they true or not? Thanks.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Four of the first six are all from Judaism. What did Hinduism teach before the "Gita" and Krishna? From that order, spiritual truth has to go from Judaism to Hinduism to Zoroastrianism back to Judaism, then to Buddhism. But every people and culture had a religion. Those religions are not even part of the mix. Were they true or not? Thanks.
od19g6, don't forget me. I think the more Baha'is can show a progression between these first few major religions the better... for them. If they can't then... progressive revelation isn't all that believable.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
od19g6, don't forget me. I think the more Baha'is can show a progression between these first few major religions the better... for them. If they can't then... progressive revelation isn't all that believable.
Od19g6, where are you? Let's see what Baha'is have to show a progression between the first four of the major religions on their list.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Od19g6, where are you? Let's see what Baha'is have to show a progression between the first four of the major religions on their list.

This picture shows how this works
Tree.png

The Abrahamic Line can be seen as the long tap root on the right , as we have more recorded history from that line. Krishna comes in from the left and it could be said that the center and left roots represent all the other faiths, all still feeding the growth of the same tree.

So East, West, North and South all feed to this 'Day of God', the Tree is now known as the 'Glory of God'.

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
This picture shows how this works
View attachment 36004
The Abrahamic Line can be seen as the long tap root on the right , as we have more recorded history from that line. Krishna comes in from the left and it could be said that the center and left roots represent all the other faiths, all still feeding the growth of the same tree.

So East, West, North and South all feed to this 'Day of God', the Tree is now known as the 'Glory of God'.

Regards Tony
Thanks, but it doesn't get down to the roots of ancient religious beliefs. Was there a point where all religions believed many Gods and Goddesses? Did they have good Gods vs. evil Gods? How many different flood and creation stories were there? How many religious beliefs are not believed to be "God-made" but "man-made" myth?

I believe religions have progressed and are still progressing, just not like the Baha'is believe... That one supreme God sent messengers approximately every 1000 years. And that "true" message got distorted every single time. Since all people in all tribes and cultures have a religion, then did each have their own messenger? I don't think so. It would take more than one coming every 1000 years I would think.

Another problem is Baha'is don't include any one other than Krishna from Hinduism. Another problem is that great empires had religions, like China, Egypt, Greece and Rome, but those religions aren't in the "progression"? Oh, and others like the Mayans and Aztecs... But the modern world has moved away from the things in the religions of those empires. And we see them as no than myth and superstition. Even now Baha'is are pushing to get rid of mythical and superstitious beliefs like a dying and rising God/man and incarnations of God.

Sure religious thoughts and beliefs are progressing. But, show me how the Baha'is really believe it works. Since the "school grade" analogy doesn't work for me, show me how you can go from Hinduism to Judaism or Zoroastrianism to Buddhism than to Christianity? And all the while ignoring all the other religious beliefs in the world at the time? But thanks Tony, but since od19g6 started this thread, I hope od19g6 can be the one to answer these questions.

Oh, and the tree analogy doesn't work either. In a real tree, all the roots are drawing the same stuff out of the ground to nourish the tree. And all the branches are made out of the same material. And all the leaves are all very much the same and do the same job. In a progressive revelation tree, all the roots would have started pure, but then all got distorted. All the distorted roots rebelled against themselves, claiming to be trying to get back to the original but actually causing more distortions. Some distorted roots reached the ground and sprouted up into distorted trees, not one tree. The branches of one tree tried to choke off the other branches on their own tree and also reach over and kill off the branches and even the trunk of the other trees, saying that they are false trees.

Then the Baha'i tree comes along and tells that the "originally", they were all meant to be one tree and all had the same one "pure" root. But where is that original one pure root? The roots of all the trees were too distorted and tangled to figure out where they even came from.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Thanks, but it doesn't get down to the roots of ancient religious beliefs. Was there a point where all religions believed many Gods and Goddesses? Did they have good Gods vs. evil Gods? How many different flood and creation stories were there? How many religious beliefs are not believed to be "God-made" but "man-made" myth?

There is always so much in your posts, a book would be required with each reply.

The Kitab-i-Iqan is what has answered all those questions for me.

I see the belief in multipul God's was born out of past teachings showing the immensity of God and all the 'Names of God'. People that did not know the extent of creation and could still not have a global vision, did what they thought was best to live this life. CL Many teachings build upon those limited visions, are now no longer supportable in this day. The purpose they served, is no longer effective. They one and all, have been given new meanings to pursue.

In this day we can have a universal vision, as it has gone way beyond global, the world has shrunk. Also now science is showing us that creation appears to have come from single point.

We can learn from the past, embrace the new and build a future of lasting peace. That is the path I have chosen, albeit in this time, it is not fully realised.

All the best CG, the troubles and strife the world now face will continue to plauge its growth. "The peace and security of mankind is unattainable, unless and until, it's unity is firmly established" .

It is obvious, to me, that will not happen until many people consider the source of Faith is One.

Regards
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Thanks, but it doesn't get down to the roots of ancient religious beliefs. Was there a point where all religions believed many Gods and Goddesses? Did they have good Gods vs. evil Gods? How many different flood and creation stories were there? How many religious beliefs are not believed to be "God-made" but "man-made" myth?

I believe religions have progressed and are still progressing, just not like the Baha'is believe... That one supreme God sent messengers approximately every 1000 years. And that "true" message got distorted every single time. Since all people in all tribes and cultures have a religion, then did each have their own messenger? I don't think so. It would take more than one coming every 1000 years I would think.

Another problem is Baha'is don't include any one other than Krishna from Hinduism. Another problem is that great empires had religions, like China, Egypt, Greece and Rome, but those religions aren't in the "progression"? Oh, and others like the Mayans and Aztecs... But the modern world has moved away from the things in the religions of those empires. And we see them as no than myth and superstition. Even now Baha'is are pushing to get rid of mythical and superstitious beliefs like a dying and rising God/man and incarnations of God.

Sure religious thoughts and beliefs are progressing. But, show me how the Baha'is really believe it works. Since the "school grade" analogy doesn't work for me, show me how you can go from Hinduism to Judaism or Zoroastrianism to Buddhism than to Christianity? And all the while ignoring all the other religious beliefs in the world at the time? But thanks Tony, but since od19g6 started this thread, I hope od19g6 can be the one to answer these questions.

Oh, and the tree analogy doesn't work either. In a real tree, all the roots are drawing the same stuff out of the ground to nourish the tree. And all the branches are made out of the same material. And all the leaves are all very much the same and do the same job. In a progressive revelation tree, all the roots would have started pure, but then all got distorted. All the distorted roots rebelled against themselves, claiming to be trying to get back to the original but actually causing more distortions. Some distorted roots reached the ground and sprouted up into distorted trees, not one tree. The branches of one tree tried to choke off the other branches on their own tree and also reach over and kill off the branches and even the trunk of the other trees, saying that they are false trees.

Then the Baha'i tree comes along and tells that the "originally", they were all meant to be one tree and all had the same one "pure" root. But where is that original one pure root? The roots of all the trees were too distorted and tangled to figure out where they even came from.

Probably a whole bunch more whose history of rise and fall is totally gone, disappeared in the sands of time.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I believe religions have progressed and are still progressing, just not like the Baha'is believe... That one supreme God sent messengers approximately every 1000 years. And that "true" message got distorted every single time. Since all people in all tribes and cultures have a religion, then did each have their own messenger? I don't think so. It would take more than one coming every 1000 years I would think.

The Key here is that this talks about the Messengers and not the other ways that God's Messengers share what is from God.

The Bible says by the fruits you shall know them.

Consider the Messengers are the Sun and many people get life from the Sun. So if you look at the world in the time of the Bab and Baha'u'llah and see how many people were predicting the event all await for. Many thousands of people all around the world that were more in tune with the spiritual worlds were already starting to teach what was to come from God's Messengers for this age. There are many on this forum that follow people that were inspired by people that were reflecting the teachings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah, but they were not the chosen sources.

I see if one is not spiritually pure, it is very hard to live in the time of a Manifestation. They are what light the world, but if we do not see or recognise the source, we may think that the light is coming from us, that it is our light our inspiration, which it is not.

RegardsTony
 
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