Is progressive revelation believable?

[TransmutingSoul]

Another problem is Baha'is don't include any one other than Krishna from Hinduism. Another problem is that great empires had religions, like China, Egypt, Greece and Rome, but those religions aren't in the "progression"? Oh, and others like the Mayans and Aztecs... But the modern world has moved away from the things in the religions of those empires. And we see them as no than myth and superstition. Even now Baha'is are pushing to get rid of mythical and superstitious beliefs like a dying and rising God/man and incarnations of God.

Again Christ made it easy, by the fruits you shall know them.

There has been Many Messengers. The Kitab-i-Iqan explains this.

To me, I see that Baha'u'llah's teachings concentrated of Faiths that could still produce a Book that did still have some Truth that could be traced back to the Original Source.

The remainder have their teachings lost in time. To me the best example of this is the Buddha. Most modern practice has removed God from the teachings.

Big topic, many tangents. Luckily, Bahaullah has covered it all, in my opinion.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Oh, and the tree analogy doesn't work either. In a real tree, all the roots are drawing the same stuff out of the ground to nourish the tree. And all the branches are made out of the same material. And all the leaves are all very much the same and do the same job.

That works - One God is the source and supplies all the trees needs. Notice you say the tree all draws from the same sourceand all branches made from same material and do the same job.

Looking at what you did to that tree after the above quote, I really can only say, what are you looking for?

All the Metephor was about how to take the tree apart.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Probably a whole bunch more whose history of rise and fall is totally gone, disappeared in the sands of time.

Agreed

RegardsTony

 

[Milton Platt]

Some people ask why is there multiple religions in the world, which God is true the christians God or the Islamic Allah?

But what if I told you that divine revelation is progressive.

That Prophets / Messengers known as Manifestations of God has been sent in every age in human history and evolution to guide humanity in the right spiritual path, that the holy Bible and holy Qur'an was divine education that was suited for the time and age in which it was revealed in. And that we have a current Prophet / Messenger / Manifestation of God, and current divine scriptures / education for this time and age that we live in right now.

Edit: I've noticed that some people is addressing the "truth is not absolute but relative" statement that I made. So let me put it this way: some truths are not absolute and some truths are relative. It depends what truths are being talked about.

Can you list some absolute truths?

 

[CG Didymus]

see how many people were predicting the event

Thanks Tony, With all the prophecies of all the religions thrown in, it is difficult to say anything for sure. We very well could be in what the Christians belief the end times will look like... The world is still a mess. Jesus hasn't come and fixed anything. It could be how the Baha'is say it is. We had our chance and rejected him, and now we must go through some tough times.

Again Christ made it easy, by the fruits you shall know them.

For this I like using the Mormons as an example. Who other than the Mormons believes that Jesus came to the Americas? Who other than Mormons believes the story about the Golden Plates. Yet, Mormons are great people. So are they great people, producing spiritual fruit because they have a newer and better Testament from God? Or, do they bear good fruit in spite of having some beliefs that might be wrong? Either way, I believe a religion can believe in lots of things that aren't true, but if their teachings are focused on being good people, they will produce good people... even though they have wrong beliefs mixed in.

And, actually, that works for just about any other religion. They can believe their prophet rose from the dead and floated off to space, but they can still be good people producing spiritual fruit.

Notice you say the tree all draws from the same source and all branches made from same material and do the same job.

Looking at what you did to that tree after the above quote, I really can only say, what are you looking for?

I don't think the religions in the world are like a tree. They are not rooted in the same source. They are not roots going into one trunk and then into many branches with leaves. I think religion has their roots in mythical beliefs of ancient people. I believe that sages, gurus, prophets, legends of God/men, and legends of wondrous deeds by the gods all played a part in forming what we believe.

In this day we can have a universal vision, as it has gone way beyond global, the world has shrunk. Also now science is showing us that creation appears to have come from single point.

We can learn from the past, embrace the new and build a future of lasting peace.

And thanks to the Baha'is, we are getting a more universal vision... but is it only coming from the Baha'is? Are all others just getting their inspiration from Baha'u'llah and not knowing it? Or, were some of these universal concepts there before the Baha'is came along? Either way, I think we should accept many of the teachings of the Baha'i Faith. But does it work for all people? For me, there is too much of an Islamic influence in it to be totally universal. The Baha'i progression maybe can include Judaism, because it has laws. But what other religion does it share anything that even looks like a progression? For me, only Islam. Other new religions that progressed out of Buddhism or Hinduism or Christianity share roots with those other religions... but not with all religions. All those new religions can be seen as an update and an improvement over the older beliefs of the religion.​

 

[TransmutingSoul]

For this I like using the Mormons as an example. Who other than the Mormons believes that Jesus came to the Americas? Who other than Mormons believes the story about the Golden Plates. Yet, Mormons are great people. So are they great people, producing spiritual fruit because they have a newer and better Testament from God? Or, do they bear good fruit in spite of having some beliefs that might be wrong? Either way, I believe a religion can believe in lots of things that aren't true, but if their teachings are focused on being good people, they will produce good people... even though they have wrong beliefs mixed in.

And, actually, that works for just about any other religion. They can believe their prophet rose from the dead and floated off to space, but they can still be good people producing spiritual fruit.

I find the Mormons an interesting one, in a way I see He was preparing the way in America, without really knowing the source of the inspiration. As the Faith is based on Jesus the Christ we have to loom how it started; "Beginning in 1834, Smith began teaching the concept of priesthood "keys", and the requirement of literal priesthood ordination and a direct line of apostolic succession. Smith taught that he was the prophet, seer, and revelator of the restored church. Notice He is stilled tied to the Christian Church, the Bab (Gate), is now about 15 years old and it will be ten years before He will give the Message in 1844.

Interestingly He was assassinated on 27th June 1844, just after the Bab's Declaration. To me what amazing spiritual meaning is behind such events? All things were not made new by Joseph Smith.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I think religion has their roots in mythical beliefs of ancient people. I believe that sages, gurus, prophets, legends of God/men, and legends of wondrous deeds by the gods all played a part in forming what we believe.

Great, sSo do I, all fed from the same source, but men like to add their bit to it all.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

For me, there is too much of an Islamic influence in it to be totally universal

This stood out. There is much I see that crosses and is common to all Faiths, there is much I see has a foundation in truth, but men have added their take to the subject.

We all know what happens on RF when we start exploring belief across those supposed divides.

The only reason Faith has not become Universal, is because of our own selves, it is not part of the Message given, they warn us against our own selves.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

This stood out. There is much I see that crosses and is common to all Faiths, there is much I see has a foundation in truth, but men have added their take to the subject.

We all know what happens on RF when we start exploring belief across those supposed divides.

The only reason Faith has not become Universal, is because of our own selves, it is not part of the Message given, they warn us against our own selves.

Regards Tony

Okay thanks Tony, how's the apocalyptic fires doing in Australia?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Okay thanks Tony, how's the apocalyptic fires doing in Australia?

Not good for a lot of people. The world is tinder with fire approaching on all fronts.

All the best CG.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Not good for a lot of people. The world is tinder with fire approaching on all fronts.

All the best CG.

Regards Tony

My brother lives a few miles from Paradise Calif. The whole town got burnt down last year.

 

[Vinayaka]

My brother lives a few miles from Paradise Calif. The whole town got burnt down last year.

Rather ironic name.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

My brother lives a few miles from Paradise Calif. The whole town got burnt down last year.

I wish them all a recovery and better future.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Rather ironic name.

Trump visited the area and called the place "Pleasure". The Governor corrected him, but with everything burnt down the real name of Paradise was probably worse. That visit might have been where Trump said that in Finland they rake the forest floor to prevent forest fires.

 

[CG Didymus]

There is always so much in your posts

Could we focus on this for awhile then...

Another problem is Baha'is don't include any one other than Krishna from Hinduism. Another problem is that great empires had religions, like China, Egypt, Greece and Rome, but those religions aren't in the "progression"? Oh, and others like the Mayans and Aztecs... But the modern world has moved away from the things in the religions of those empires. And we see them as no than myth and superstition. Even now Baha'is are pushing to get rid of mythical and superstitious beliefs like a dying and rising God/man and incarnations of God.

Baha'is have to go beyond Krishna when they talk about a progression, because Krishna is not the originator of Hinduism. We have to go further back to get to anything that might be considered to be the "original" teachings of Hinduism.

I suppose we'd find a lot of "progressive" revelation or, I prefer calling it "evolving" of spiritual thought and beliefs. I think each people and culture kept evolving and changing their own beliefs to keep up with the times. Was it because God was sending new messengers, or, more like what I think happened, the people themselves keep creating their own ideas about what true spiritual reality must be.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Could we focus on this for awhile then...
Baha'is have to go beyond Krishna when they talk about a progression, because Krishna is not the originator of Hinduism. We have to go further back to get to anything that might be considered to be the "original" teachings of Hinduism.

I suppose we'd find a lot of "progressive" revelation or, I prefer calling it "evolving" of spiritual thought and beliefs. I think each people and culture kept evolving and changing their own beliefs to keep up with the times. Was it because God was sending new messengers, or, more like what I think happened, the people themselves keep creating their own ideas about what true spiritual reality must be.

CG when meditating this morning before reading this post, I had two distinct thoughts and they are both useful for what you have asked.

Firstly I do not know why you see that Baha'u'llah does not embrace more than Krishna in regards to the Hindu Faith. A Baha'i holds to the Biblical verse of looking for God {Good} in all things. There would be an inestimable amount of Messages given from God to the Hindu.

As discussed before, we can not know what those Messages were, if there is no accurate records. We know man passes down stories will always add their ideas to those stories.

The dreamtime stories in Australia are a very good example, some of the latest stories told by some current elders have been embellished by Christian and Materialistic thought.

I considered that all I can offer as a Baha'i is that each person of each Faith consider if all other Faiths have the same foundation in Spirit. In that way and in that way only, I see will unity be found.

No one needs to give up their faith, what they can do is accept the right of others to see it in a different way.

In that way we may consider the progression is actually growing in our own maturity.

The second thought that I had, that I may make an OP on, is the thought as to where God has chosen to give those Messages. They have all been given amongst people that had become very corrupt morally and materially, the result is, that the Message will have a great and lasting impact on those peoples and as it expands, other people.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Trump visited the area and called the place "Pleasure". The Governor corrected him, but with everything burnt down the real name of Paradise was probably worse. That visit might have been where Trump said that in Finland they rake the forest floor to prevent forest fires.

We have a Paradise Valley nearby. Same valley as the one where I grew up near, and swam in the river. Long tiny river stretching across the Canadian Prairies for 500 miles or so.

Yes there is stuff we can do to prevent the spread of forest fires. You know how when dominos are set up to all fall, and they take out about every 100th one? That principle would help.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

We have a Paradise Valley nearby. Same valley as the one where I grew up near, and swam in the river. Long tiny river stretching across the Canadian Prairies for 500 miles or so.

Yes there is stuff we can do to prevent the spread of forest fires. You know how when dominos are set up to all fall, and they take out about every 100th one? That principle would help.

Australian Aboriginals has been managing the forests for centuries.

They did a cold burn each year, at a time when the fuel is burnt, but the forests and bush is not damaged.

I drove past a place last week called the 40 mile scrub and it was always rare and lush trees. The fire that came through this year was that hot that most trees are destroyed, the bark was lifted off by boiling cores.

Australia has a lot of National parks and forests that have not been Managed the way they used to be by the natives of Australia.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Australian Aboriginals has been managing the forests for centuries.

They did a cold burn each year, at a time when the fuel is burnt, but the forests and bush is not damaged.

I drove past a place last week called the 40 mile scrub and it was always rare and lush trees. The fire that came through this year was that hot that most trees are destroyed, the bark was lifted off by boiling cores.

Australia has a lot of National parks and forests that have not been Managed the way they used to be by the natives of Australia.

Regards Tony

'Expert' rice production guys went to Bali, and almost destroyed the production levels. The Balinese went back to their own ways. People who have lived on the land for a very long time just know so much more. Controlled burning is wise.

 

[od19g6]

You made rules that limit you from discovering reality.

Such rules as : Spirituality has to be refined by manifestations.

We would not know of divine education if not for manifestations.

You say God defines exactly between good and bad.

You say we will never know God.

You say humans must accept divine education.

Don't you see? You have boxed yourself with these rules you have created.

Let's look at these few. We are spiritual beings in our true nature. There is no refinement needed by any manifestations. It's who we are. You can discover this without religion.

Divine education does not depend on knowing you are being educated. It does not depend on any manifestations. How was God educating cavemen? There was no problem then.

You can not show me where God has placed an exact line between good and evil. There is no manifestation that does this. God has no need to define good and evil. Each will decide for themselves.

When you say we will never know God, it's because discovery takes work and it's easier to accept a box of beliefs and say it can't be done so you don't have to try. God hides nothing about Himself. Your created rule is what prevents you.

You say humans must accept divine education. Education has never depended on accepting or rejecting. Parents need to out think their children. In this case, we aren't even in the ball park yet.

The first thing God pointed out to me is that mankind carries such a narrow view. If you choose to create such a narrow view, you will wall yourself from the real truth that stares us all in the face.

People and their holy books. They are so proud to have memorized them and yet that very thing prevents them from true Discovery.

God has never needed holy books. They are a creation of mankind. If God required everyone to know holy books. God would have made sure everyone got a copy or better yet, God would have implanted the information before birth. Intelligence can distribute far better than believers trying to convince others. God isn't working on beliefs. Religion is.

You can make your rules or follow rules made by religions, but you will never move forward until you free yourself from the limits and narrow views that it creates.

Well, that's what I see. It's very clear to me.

Hi everyone.

I know that I haven't been on the forum and I sincerely apologize for that. Really to be honest until recently I haven't gone on forums much and I don't consider myself that good of a writer. I'm just a guy that loves this faith and I try to honestly convey it the best I can.

So what do you say that we start anew because I really have to catch up ha ha.

So let me start with this question. Do you think there is a connection between progressive revelation and the world being ever advancing?