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Is Privatization Genuine Education Reform?

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Can it be improved by privatization? Of course, any change in system could, if done right, be done better ... but odds are it will be done wrong.

That is why I ask, "Will it be?" I rather doubt it.

From where I sit it appears that those looking for privatization in one form or other are not really putting the needs of the kids' first. They are pushing political or social or religious agendas or reacting to what they see as others pushing political or social or religious agendas within the existing system. Our country gave the know-nothings a go once before, lets not do that again.

I agree completely. There's much more to than simply educating a child. My colleagues become that second/third parent, that big brother/sister, a counsellor or at many times just a willing listening ear for a child's fears, angers and concerns. Many of the people I work with come out of their own pockets to food, clothes and supply kids with some of the basic tools they need when they otherwise can't afford it. There are many facets of a child's life that a for profit organization may not be equipped to handle. My overall concern is...what if a family can't afford the for profit education model. In my view..the public school system accepts all regardless of wealth or lack thereof.
 
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Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
Yea but shiets cheaper here too though son xP because were not paying for health care via our taxes
I paid 3.39$ per gallon of gas this morning.
Sales tax is only 6.5% here.
Soda 1.79$
avg 7$ for a value meal at mcdonalds.

Upsies and downsies for both.

We pay more in taxes than Canadians do for healthcare. Think about that for a second.
 

Thruve

Sheppard for the Die Hard
We pay more in taxes than Canadians do for healthcare. Think about that for a second.


-We also have like 10x the population.
-Their government is like a Hershey squirt compared to the size of ours.
-I saw they have a higher sales tax depending on province, and it differentiates depending on service/product.
-They lack staff in their health industry, wonder why.

-The only ones that benefited off their whole socilist system, atleast I was told, was their senior citizens. The same ones down here in the US every winter.

For the general 'populace', their health care system works.
Socialism works there.
It won't work with us.
National Health care won't work with us.
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Our biggest issue with health care right now is that our idiot prime minister wants to cut 36 billion dollars from it, immediately after giving 50 billion in tax breaks to the richest corporations in the country.

And which shows that it's not just the U.S. that has bonehead politicians.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
-We also have like 10x the population.
-Their government is like a Hershey squirt compared to the size of ours.
-I saw they have a higher sales tax depending on province, and it differentiates depending on service/product.
-They lack staff in their health industry, wonder why.

-The only ones that benefited off their whole socilist system, atleast I was told, was their senior citizens. The same ones down here in the US every winter.

Sorry, but in this case size doesn't matter. Japan and France, for examples, have sizable populations and yet they outperform the U.S., and they do so at a far less expensive price-tag per 100,000 population.

Secondly, the staff issue is important in Canada, and that's largely due to their demographics as 90% of the population lives in the southern 10% of the land, and yet people in remote areas still need medical attention. The U.S. does not have that same drawback.

One should remember that with our for-profit health-care system, a great deal of the extra expense is caused by advertising, creating profit to pay investors, and duplication of services.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
-We also have like 10x the population.
-Their government is like a Hershey squirt compared to the size of ours.
-I saw they have a higher sales tax depending on province, and it differentiates depending on service/product.
-They lack staff in their health industry, wonder why.

-The only ones that benefited off their whole socilist system, atleast I was told, was their senior citizens. The same ones down here in the US every winter.

For the general 'populace', their health care system works.
Socialism works there.
It won't work with us.
National Health care won't work with us.

We pay more PER PERSON in taxes for healthcare. Me, you and everyone else gets a higher percentage of our incomes, sales taxes ect that goes to paying for just medicaid and medicare. So the size of our population is irrelevant.

The size of our government? What do you mean exactly? And what does the size of the gvoernment have to do with the subject matter at hand?

Their taxes are not much higher than ours. But the higher taxes they have actually is spent more on education and other programs to help the citizens. But in terms of how much a Canadian pays on average for total socialized healthcare that is free for everyone in the country is less than I pay as an American citizen and get nothing in return.

And where did you hear that fact about senior citizens? Its demonstrably false. Everyone gets free healthcare in Canada and obviously the senior citizens use it more but that is only because they need it more than younger citizens on average. So I have no idea where you got this idea from.
 

Delta-9

Member
If you have money you can get the very best in America, be it health care or education. But the issue isn't who has the best system for the rich, the rich are going to be fine in any modernized country.

The issue is the overall quality, how does the middle class and poor fit into the system? If the middle class and poor can't get the health care they need everyone suffers through things like economic ripples and potential outbreaks of diseases.

It is also very disturbing to see the middle class in America literally disappearing since the 1970's/80's, and a large part (whether symptom or cause I don't know) is emergency medical bills from things like car accidents and cancer.

Universal healthcare that focuses on basic care, preventative care, and emergencies should just be standard practice in first world countries. It improves everyone's quality of life.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
If you have money you can get the very best in America, be it health care or education. But the issue isn't who has the best system for the rich, the rich are going to be fine in any modernized country.

The issue is the overall quality, how does the middle class and poor fit into the system? If the middle class and poor can't get the health care they need everyone suffers through things like economic ripples and potential outbreaks of diseases.

It is also very disturbing to see the middle class in America literally disappearing since the 1970's/80's, and a large part (whether symptom or cause I don't know) is emergency medical bills from things like car accidents and cancer.

Universal healthcare that focuses on basic care, preventative care, and emergencies should just be standard practice in first world countries. It improves everyone's quality of life.


You are spot on. Much or what you say here is also true when it comes to the competing educations systems in America. The overall question is..How does the working poor and the middle income fit into a for profit education system.....
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
In the end it will just make public schools worse, introducing a two-tier education system
There already is in several places... where private schools are just flat better than their public counterparts.

Things we need to do:
1) Improve curriculum... no more mass standardized tests determining funding, let teachers teach... and accelerate classes.
2) Pay teachers better and get rid of tenure. If you can't/won't teach and teach well get out.
3) Hardest one, but most important for the success of children... parental involvement... I don't know how/if we can mandate it or even if we should, but kids need involved and scholastically active parents/guardians.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
I agree, with all except tenure. That's a rough one, some modification maybe in order, is likely in order, but I fear the heavy hand of the Political Correctness of the moment on the shoulders of teachers. How do we prevent that?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Contrary to the belief of some, tenure does not prevent the removal of a bad teacher. What it does do is to offer at least some protection against p.c. as the last poster mentioned, and it puts into place a general format for possible removal whereas previous steps may help correct that teacher without removal.
 

Thruve

Sheppard for the Die Hard
We pay more PER PERSON in taxes for healthcare. Me, you and everyone else gets a higher percentage of our incomes, sales taxes ect that goes to paying for just medicaid and medicare. So the size of our population is irrelevant.

The size of our government? What do you mean exactly? And what does the size of the gvoernment have to do with the subject matter at hand?

Their taxes are not much higher than ours. But the higher taxes they have actually is spent more on education and other programs to help the citizens. But in terms of how much a Canadian pays on average for total socialized healthcare that is free for everyone in the country is less than I pay as an American citizen and get nothing in return.

And where did you hear that fact about senior citizens? Its demonstrably false. Everyone gets free healthcare in Canada and obviously the senior citizens use it more but that is only because they need it more than younger citizens on average. So I have no idea where you got this idea from.

-Can us, and our government, afford Europe and Canadas national health care?No.
-Size does matter, wth are you people smoking?
-I maintain condos in Broward County and guess who populates them in season. The Canadians do and majority of them are from Quebec. I've talked to them and many of their children who often visit and are not to much older than me. They come over here to spend money, and do so happily. They also always drive down here, which does suggest that they aren't broke and clearly have money.
The kids always come off as struggling whilst the parents, though retired, come off as financially secure. One dude in particular convinced me that the youth in quebec, mainly in the cities, will never benefit off the system like their parents did which suggests the system is on the decline in general. Their children have told me how they along with many of their friends are often stuck in their houses and could never move. They say its so expensive that nobody can move, suggesting that generations usually are stuck in cities and often in the same houses they were raised in. The parents also ALWAYS complain about their healthcare. Especially if its medically over something the insurance companies won't pay for here in the us which means mid-vacation they have to travel back to Canada just for care. It upsets them because they'll usually be gone awhile and miss the rest of their 6-8 month vacation.

Our country is too large to financially adopt these socialized systems both Canada and Europe have adopted. If your going to throw the 'size doesn't matter' argument, then you really underestimate how large the US is and its place in the world today. ATM we cannot afford it.

-We pay more for our healthcare? Maybe you do, but I don't.
I pay 200$ every time I go to the MDNow right down the street.
Why do I pay anything upfront when usually I should have insurance?
Because me, my father, and my sisster lost our healthcare policies due to Obama Care. We got dropped, and apparently a hundred thousands + of Floridians alone also got dropped. Given Im rarely sick, Its not a big deal for me right now. In the few scenarios however where I had to go to the ER which costed 1000$ + depending on the situation, I never paid that up front. I mail them 20$ a month, and probably will be doing so for a awhile, and thats without having health insurance. Ill take that over gas prices x2 given Im constantly driving between broward and palm beach. I also smoke, so ill take that over 2x the price for a pack of cigarettes. Ill take it over their education system thats a tiny turd in comparison to ours, to which would never benefit us moreover than it being privatized.

Ontop of it all, I very mush dislike government. I view it as its own entity. I view it as its own monster. Therefore Why would I want government to control anything? All I have heard is the negative about socialized countries, and the conditions needed for it to thrive but No ones thriving.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
-Can us, and our government, afford Europe and Canadas national health care?No.

The U.S. spends roughly double (18% of g.d.p. here) the European standard (all of them under 13% g.d.p.-- 9% is average), so you're simply wrong. But even that's deceiving since the western Europeans have universal coverage whereas we still don't.

-Size does matter, wth are you people smoking?

Not in this case. In both cases we're looking at per capita input versus per capita expenditures. I've studied both systems, and I'll take theirs any day of the week for the general populace, including myself. In Canada, families are not bankrupt because of medical expenses, but here in the states it's estimated that roughly 70-80% of all personal bankruptcies have high medical bills as being one of the major culprits.

BTW, I don't smoke, but I'll take a bottle of Dos Equis amber if you have it.

Our country is too large to financially adopt these socialized systems both Canada and Europe have adopted. If your going to throw the 'size doesn't matter' argument, then you really underestimate how large the US is and its place in the world today. ATM we cannot afford it.

Again, size makes no difference as we see when international comparisons are concerned. If that were to be the case, Canada would be far more disadvantaged than the U.S. because of it demographics, as I previously mentioned.

Because me, my father, and my sisster lost our healthcare policies due to Obama Care. We got dropped, and apparently a hundred thousands + of Floridians alone also got dropped.

Did you check the exchanges? Most of the people I personally know, including my own son, actually did better with the exchanges than with their original insurance.

Ontop of it all, I very mush dislike government. I view it as its own entity. I view it as its own monster. Therefore Why would I want government to control anything? All I have heard is the negative about socialized countries, and the conditions needed for it to thrive but No ones thriving.

The government doesn't control "Obamacare" since it works through private insurance companies. What it does do is to set up a base-line minimum coverage standard, which was badly needed since the private insurance companies were playing all sorts of games.

Do you get your "news" from Fox, by chance? Do you listen much to Limbaugh? What I'm picking up from you is pretty much a rehash of the distortions both of them put forth.
 

Delta-9

Member
Contrary to the belief of some, tenure does not prevent the removal of a bad teacher. What it does do is to offer at least some protection against p.c. as the last poster mentioned, and it puts into place a general format for possible removal whereas previous steps may help correct that teacher without removal.

It de facto makes it all but impossible in most cases. There are many teachers in my family and they say it is a nightmare to try and remove a tenure teacher that should clearly be gone. Even if the removal is successful it can take years because of protocol, making it an awkward working environment in the meantime, so often no one bothers to start the removal process.

We can't just get rid of tenure, but it does need major reform.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
It de facto makes it all but impossible in most cases. There are many teachers in my family and they say it is a nightmare to try and remove a tenure teacher that should clearly be gone. Even if the removal is successful it can take years because of protocol, making it an awkward working environment in the meantime, so often no one bothers to start the removal process.

We can't just get rid of tenure, but it does need major reform.

It largely depends on state laws, which vary. I saw some teachers fired who had tenure, and one of my friends was an asst.-principle whereas he mentioned that it takes both careful documentation and a willingness to go after Teacher X if (s)he's incompetent.

It's the latter item that can be a problem even in a non-tenure state, and I saw a few years ago the results of a comparison between a non-tenure state and a tenure one whereas the dismissal difference was less than 1%. I'm not making this up, but I simply don't remember which states were compared, but I do think Florida was one of the two.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
It de facto makes it all but impossible in most cases. There are many teachers in my family and they say it is a nightmare to try and remove a tenure teacher that should clearly be gone. Even if the removal is successful it can take years because of protocol, making it an awkward working environment in the meantime, so often no one bothers to start the removal process.

We can't just get rid of tenure, but it does need major reform.
As you point out, the problem with tenure is the high hurdle for determining a "just cause".
The expense & difficulty cause the retention of teachers who should be fired. (The "Broken
Gun Syndrom" is when they won't work, & you can't fire them.) Private schools can function
without tenure. The rest of the business world does too.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
-Can us, and our government, afford Europe and Canadas national health care?No.
-Size does matter, wth are you people smoking?

Why does size matter? You haven't given an answer to this. Its proportional. If 10 people do something by pitching in for healthcare it works for 100 and then 1000 and then 10,000. It doesn't matter how large your country is.

Explain to my why it would be an increased cost.
-I maintain condos in Broward County and guess who populates them in season. The Canadians do and majority of them are from Quebec. I've talked to them and many of their children who often visit and are not to much older than me. They come over here to spend money, and do so happily. They also always drive down here, which does suggest that they aren't broke and clearly have money.
The kids always come off as struggling whilst the parents, though retired, come off as financially secure. One dude in particular convinced me that the youth in quebec, mainly in the cities, will never benefit off the system like their parents did which suggests the system is on the decline in general. Their children have told me how they along with many of their friends are often stuck in their houses and could never move. They say its so expensive that nobody can move, suggesting that generations usually are stuck in cities and often in the same houses they were raised in. The parents also ALWAYS complain about their healthcare. Especially if its medically over something the insurance companies won't pay for here in the us which means mid-vacation they have to travel back to Canada just for care. It upsets them because they'll usually be gone awhile and miss the rest of their 6-8 month vacation.

I have literally never heard of a Canadian wishing to have an American style healthcare system. They complain bout their system all the time but thats because it isn't perfect. Its a hell of a lot better than no system. I mean by your logic people who are well off in upper class white suburban neighborhods who complain about how their starbucks iced coffee is watered down would just as rather get black coffee that has been sitting in the pot all day at a 7-11.

Secondly you can't take the opinions of a few people as political fact. If you have information suggesting that the elderly are taking advantage of the a failing Canadian system then by all means share it. But in the mean time lets ask someone who is Canadian. I know we have several on this forum.
Our country is too large to financially adopt these socialized systems both Canada and Europe have adopted. If your going to throw the 'size doesn't matter' argument, then you really underestimate how large the US is and its place in the world today. ATM we cannot afford it.
This is a lie that has been spread over and over again. The size of the country doesn't matter if we are all still paying taxes. The only argument one could construct is to say we have to many unemployed people or something of the sort. But even then it isn't the case.
-We pay more for our healthcare? Maybe you do, but I don't.
I pay 200$ every time I go to the MDNow right down the street.
Why do I pay anything upfront when usually I should have insurance?
Because me, my father, and my sisster lost our healthcare policies due to Obama Care. We got dropped, and apparently a hundred thousands + of Floridians alone also got dropped. Given Im rarely sick, Its not a big deal for me right now. In the few scenarios however where I had to go to the ER which costed 1000$ + depending on the situation, I never paid that up front. I mail them 20$ a month, and probably will be doing so for a awhile, and thats without having health insurance. Ill take that over gas prices x2 given Im constantly driving between broward and palm beach. I also smoke, so ill take that over 2x the price for a pack of cigarettes. Ill take it over their education system thats a tiny turd in comparison to ours, to which would never benefit us moreover than it being privatized.
I gather you have a job as you stated you managed condos. Your taxes that you pay out of your pocket, a higher percentage of that will go to healthcare in America than it would if you lived in Canada making the same amount.

And to be clear I don't support the current ACA. I would have lent a minor support to the ACA prior to its changes during legislation.
Ontop of it all, I very mush dislike government. I view it as its own entity. I view it as its own monster. Therefore Why would I want government to control anything? All I have heard is the negative about socialized countries, and the conditions needed for it to thrive but No ones thriving.
I think this is the biggest root of your problem with most healthcare systems. It involves government to some degree and many Americans have been trained to think that the government is an evil entity that only makes lives harder rather than better.

Sometimes they are right. In this case they are wrong.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Contrary to the belief of some, tenure does not prevent the removal of a bad teacher. What it does do is to offer at least some protection against p.c. as the last poster mentioned, and it puts into place a general format for possible removal whereas previous steps may help correct that teacher without removal.

This is especially true in a ("right to work state") like mine. I have tenure but it means squat.....
 

Thruve

Sheppard for the Die Hard
Why does size matter? You haven't given an answer to this. Its proportional. If 10 people do something by pitching in for healthcare it works for 100 and then 1000 and then 10,000. It doesn't matter how large your country is.

Explain to my why it would be an increased cost.


I have literally never heard of a Canadian wishing to have an American style healthcare system. They complain bout their system all the time but thats because it isn't perfect. Its a hell of a lot better than no system. I mean by your logic people who are well off in upper class white suburban neighborhods who complain about how their starbucks iced coffee is watered down would just as rather get black coffee that has been sitting in the pot all day at a 7-11.

Secondly you can't take the opinions of a few people as political fact. If you have information suggesting that the elderly are taking advantage of the a failing Canadian system then by all means share it. But in the mean time lets ask someone who is Canadian. I know we have several on this forum.

This is a lie that has been spread over and over again. The size of the country doesn't matter if we are all still paying taxes. The only argument one could construct is to say we have to many unemployed people or something of the sort. But even then it isn't the case.

I gather you have a job as you stated you managed condos. Your taxes that you pay out of your pocket, a higher percentage of that will go to healthcare in America than it would if you lived in Canada making the same amount.

And to be clear I don't support the current ACA. I would have lent a minor support to the ACA prior to its changes during legislation.

I think this is the biggest root of your problem with most healthcare systems. It involves government to some degree and many Americans have been trained to think that the government is an evil entity that only makes lives harder rather than better.

Sometimes they are right. In this case they are wrong.

They are not wrong. Just wait another decade. Socialism will reveal its secrets!

In reference to size, its all relative, I get it. It should be proportional. However, it doesn't work in the real world =( It never does.
Look at our expenses. Look how much in debt our own socialized programs have put us. Imagine, however, national health care.el oh el
 
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