Is Privatization Genuine Education Reform?

[Thruve]

So when it comes to society, your basic approach is to see how much you can freeload? I mean, you don't want to pay taxes, but presumably you don't want to live in a nation of uneducated idiots, either, with a GDP of 200 a year.

is that how you interpret it?
Because I interpret it differently...

Government controlling everything = ticket to freeload.
I view privatization as the opposite.

Wtf am i missing?


The way I always seen it, for example, health care is like a business because its privatized. The competition increases quality. UH DUH. Uh DUH DUH? k. Now, my wallet on the other hand is another topic.

Private schools (*note PRIVATE) are universally known to offer kids a better education than public. At what expense? Your wallet.

 

[Brickjectivity]

No. Private schools are for people who can afford them. Public schools are for promoting public education.

Leave Science curricula up to the localities. I am sympathetic to the needs of Creationist families, but that is one situation where evolution will have to be the force that weeds out their approach to education. It is tragic but not a matter for Federal governments to decide.

Instead of trying to fight battles about Creationism, require multiple languages, heavy Math, Economics, Music, introduction to the Scientific Method and philosophy of the method, and heavy reading and writing. There should be much, much more reading and writing required with proof that the reading has been done and I mean reading all of the classics, not just a sampling of classics. Teens can read Voltaire, Kant and all kinds of things. They can read and discuss a lot more than they do in school right now.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

The way I always seen it, for example, health care is like a business because its privatized. The competition increases quality. UH DUH. Uh DUH DUH? k. Now, my wallet on the other hand is another topic.

Actually no. America is dismal compared to the quality of care we get in our socialized neighbors such as Canada and England. I think we are ranked number 11? I think all of the 10 above us are socialized.

U.S. Healthcare Ranked Dead Last Compared To 10 Other Countries - Forbes

Privatization has its uses. Socialization has its uses .

 

[Thruve]

Actually no. America is dismal compared to the quality of care we get in our socialized neighbors such as Canada and England. I think we are ranked number 11? I think all of the 10 above us are socialized.

U.S. Healthcare Ranked Dead Last Compared To 10 Other Countries - Forbes

Privatization has its uses. Socialization has its uses .

lawl yea ok.
Id rather run blindly to an American Hospital, make up a name, and pray they don't draw blood to find my real identity than go anywhere else in the world tbh.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

lawl yea ok.
Id rather run blindly to an American Hospital, make up a name, and pray they don't draw blood to find my real identity than go anywhere else in the world tbh.

Why? Are there reasons behind this opinion?

 

[Thruve]

Why? Are there reasons behind this opinion?

I went to Canada to visit a friend in Montreal last summer. Not this past, but the summer before it. She was born in Canada but moved here to Florida (U.S) when she was 2 y/o. Shes always been here on a green card but also always had her citizenship up there.

Anyway, So Im up there in this part of Montreal and its fugly. Streets look horrible, Homeless people begging like I've never seen before (here in FL = MANY homeless, and I love homeless people generally as im the type to give them smokes rather than food because many of them arent hungry, they are just handicapped or alcoholics) to the point where they come up and grab you dude. Well, this homeless guy grabbed me and I shook him off. Well while doing so he pushed me and I fell onto this gap in the sidewalk.. I had a huge incision on my shoulder. I called the police. 30 mins goes by and no one came so I left him be. Normally, Ill throw some antibiotics on it and wrap it up. This cut though was BAD and so I knew I had to go see a doctor.

So.... I go to the hospital. It was a 6 hour wait. There were Tons of people. Then when I saw the Doctor he gave me some antibiotics and said though I really needed stitches, thats all he could do for me atm because I wasn't a resident and that he nor his nurses had time to do it given they had other priorities . I told him I had insurance and that I would obviously also pay, he said it didn't matter. I took it they were way more busy than usual. I was like ????? Really.. so my arm can get infected and I may die. Thank you. I refuse to get hurt in any country other than my own. Nope. Nope.


*edit* dumb place needed 2x the staff. Go figure.

 

[Revoltingest]

I went to Canada to visit a friend in Montreal last summer. Not this past, but the summer before it. She was born in Canada but moved here to Florida (U.S) when she was 2 y/o. Shes always been here on a green card but also always had her citizenship up there.

Anyway, So Im up there in this part of Montreal and its fugly. Streets look horrible, Homeless people begging like I've never seen before (here in FL = MANY homeless, and I love homeless people generally as im the type to give them smokes rather than food because many of them arent hungry, they are just handicapped or alcoholics) to the point where they come up and grab you dude. Well, this homeless guy grabbed me and I shook him off. Well while doing so he pushed me and I fell onto this gap in the sidewalk.. I had a huge incision on my shoulder. I called the police. 30 mins goes by and no one came so I left him be. Normally, Ill throw some antibiotics on it and wrap it up. This cut though was BAD and so I knew I had to go see a doctor.

So.... I go to the hospital. It was a 6 hour wait. There were Tons of people. Then when I saw the Doctor he gave me some antibiotics and said though I really needed stitches, thats all he could do for me atm because I wasn't a resident and that he nor his nurses had time to do it given they had other priorities . I told him I had insurance, he said it didn't matter. I took it they were way more busy than usual. I was like ????? Really.. so my arm can get infected and I may die. Thank you. I refuse to get hurt in any country other than my own. Nope. Nope.

I was once injured in Canuckistan (worse than you were). The standard of care there was lower than in what I eventually received in Americastan. But this is for those of us who can pay for better care. I wager that that's why Canuckistanian care gets better marks, ie, it gives better average results to shift medical care allocations to the poor folk. Perhaps we should say that care there isn't better....it's on average for the whole population better.

I wonder....if one lives in Canuckistan, & needs a medical malady corrected, & there is a standard approach, but the patient wants a better (but spendier) procedure, can one pay for the upgrade?

I know many who pay for private schooling for their kids, in preference for public schools. They sing the praises of their choices. (Although one niece really wants to leave her Waldorf School for the curriculum & social life of public high school. Mom is snobbish, & says no.) So I say increase privatization to improve things until it doesn't.

 

[Thruve]

I was once injured in Canuckistan (worse than you were). The standard of care thre was lower than in what I eventually received in Americastan. But this is for those of us who can pay for better care. I wager that that's why Canuckistanian care gets better marks, ie, it gives better average results to shift medical care allocations to the poor folk. Perhaps we should say that care there isn't better....it's on average for the whole population better.

Meh, I'll.... agree with you on that.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

I went to Canada to visit a friend in Montreal last summer. Not this past, but the summer before it. She was born in Canada but moved here to Florida (U.S) when she was 2 y/o. Shes always been here on a green card but also always had her citizenship up there.

Anyway, So Im up there in this part of Montreal and its fugly. Streets look horrible, Homeless people begging like I've never seen before (here in FL = MANY homeless, and I love homeless people generally as im the type to give them smokes rather than food because many of them arent hungry, they are just handicapped or alcoholics) to the point where they come up and grab you dude. Well, this homeless guy grabbed me and I shook him off. Well while doing so he pushed me and I fell onto this gap in the sidewalk.. I had a huge incision on my shoulder. I called the police. 30 mins goes by and no one came so I left him be. Normally, Ill throw some antibiotics on it and wrap it up. This cut though was BAD and so I knew I had to go see a doctor.

So.... I go to the hospital. It was a 6 hour wait. There were Tons of people. Then when I saw the Doctor he gave me some antibiotics and said though I really needed stitches, thats all he could do for me atm because I wasn't a resident and that he nor his nurses had time to do it given they had other priorities . I told him I had insurance and that I would obviously also pay, he said it didn't matter. I took it they were way more busy than usual. I was like ????? Really.. so my arm can get infected and I may die. Thank you. I refuse to get hurt in any country other than my own. Nope. Nope.


*edit* dumb place needed 2x the staff. Go figure.

I work in a hospital and a 6 hour ER wait isn't terrible. Its bad but the average at a small hospital here in Florida is a few hours at best. Six hours isn't really surpising. Go to an hospital in New York city and see how long you wait.

So despite your highly biased and single story about an ER wait time just slightly above the US average what are your problems with the healthcare system? Do we base it on ER wait times alone? What about the quality of care you get once you get through? Or the followup? Or surgical results?

EDIT:
Also there was nothing wrong with what the doctor did. I imagine the conversation didn't go down quite as you just described it. I have worked in the ER for a long time and if someone comes in for a laceration we stitch them up and give them a prescription for antibiotics. There isn't anything else you really need to do. To them its not about getting paid because they get paid one way or another there. Its not a profit margin they have to fill. They prioritize who needs what treatment and they make room. And if it was a busier than usual day its gonna happen in America too. I still don't understand what your objection was as this doesn't seem to be an unusual case even here in America.

 

[metis]

When one looks at some of the studies that have been done, if those in the lower-income categories are not considered, we actually do fairly well internationally. The reason I say this is because the U.S. is the only industrialized country that actually spends less on kids coming from poor families than on kids coming from middle and upper-income families.

 

[metis]

lawl yea ok.
Id rather run blindly to an American Hospital, make up a name, and pray they don't draw blood to find my real identity than go anywhere else in the world tbh.

Bring your wallet.

You can get better treatment on the average in France, you can leave your wallet at home with the exception of having i.d., and they will even pay for a cab for you to get back home if you don't have any money with you. And they do all this at roughly half the cost here. I can get you the stats if you'd like.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Bring your wallet.

You can get better treatment on the average in France, you can leave your wallet at home with the exception of having i.d., and they will even pay for a cab for you to get back home if you don't have any money with you. And they do all this at roughly half the cost here. I can get you the stats if you'd like.

So your telling me France will do all that for half the cost of an average visit for the same treatment at an American hospital? I'm honestly surprised its not cheaper than that. The American system is grossly overpriced. To the point that foreign "travelers insurance" usually doesn't cover even 1/4th what they charge.

 

[Alceste]

I was once injured in Canuckistan (worse than you were). The standard of care there was lower than in what I eventually received in Americastan. But this is for those of us who can pay for better care. I wager that that's why Canuckistanian care gets better marks, ie, it gives better average results to shift medical care allocations to the poor folk. Perhaps we should say that care there isn't better....it's on average for the whole population better.

I wonder....if one lives in Canuckistan, & needs a medical malady corrected, & there is a standard approach, but the patient wants a better (but spendier) procedure, can one pay for the upgrade?

I know many who pay for private schooling for their kids, in preference for public schools. They sing the praises of their choices. (Although one niece really wants to leave her Waldorf School for the curriculum & social life of public high school. Mom is snobbish, & says no.) So I say increase privatization to improve things until it doesn't.

Yes, if a rich Canadian wants a coffee and a foot rub with their stitches, they go to the US and pay out of pocket for it.

There's also nothing preventing private doctors from offering gilded special services to the rich for cash, except for the fact that if they choose to do so they are no longer entitled to public funds. Consequently, they don't bother.

 

[Thruve]

So your telling me France will do all that for half the cost of an average visit for the same treatment at an American hospital? I'm honestly surprised its not cheaper than that. The American system is grossly overpriced. To the point that foreign "travelers insurance" usually doesn't cover even 1/4th what they charge.

Yea but shiets cheaper here too though son xP because were not paying for health care via our taxes
I paid 3.39$ per gallon of gas this morning.
Sales tax is only 6.5% here.
Soda 1.79$
avg 7$ for a value meal at mcdonalds.

Upsies and downsies for both.

 

[Alceste]

I work in a hospital and a 6 hour ER wait isn't terrible. Its bad but the average at a small hospital here in Florida is a few hours at best. Six hours isn't really surpising. Go to an hospital in New York city and see how long you wait.

So despite your highly biased and single story about an ER wait time just slightly above the US average what are your problems with the healthcare system? Do we base it on ER wait times alone? What about the quality of care you get once you get through? Or the followup? Or surgical results?

EDIT:
Also there was nothing wrong with what the doctor did. I imagine the conversation didn't go down quite as you just described it. I have worked in the ER for a long time and if someone comes in for a laceration we stitch them up and give them a prescription for antibiotics. There isn't anything else you really need to do. To them its not about getting paid because they get paid one way or another there. Its not a profit margin they have to fill. They prioritize who needs what treatment and they make room. And if it was a busier than usual day its gonna happen in America too. I still don't understand what your objection was as this doesn't seem to be an unusual case even here in America.

By contrast, I lived in Montreal and had one incident that required medical attention. First I called a nurse hotline to describe my symptoms (splitting headache, double vision, had persisted for about a week and made it impossible to sleep). She told me to go straight to the ER, so I did, and they saw me right away. As it turns out, the symptoms I described could have indicated meningitis, which is very serious. I got an MRI, blood tests, saw a doctor and a nurse, etc. all in an afternoon, at the end of which the doctor said I seemed to be fine and my symptoms were probably caused by a vertebra out of alignment in my neck. He showed me a little trick to straighten it out, which I did right there and then, heard a little click and the headache started to dissipate immediately. He gave me a prescription for some pretty hardcore painkillers and sleeping pills anyway.

When it came time to pay the bill... oh wait, there was no bill.

My point is that hospitals will prioritize serious injuries and illnesses, which sometimes means that people with minor bumps and scrapes wait a little longer. It would be great to serve everybody right away, but that's a funding issue (e.g. hiring adequate staff to process demand), not a problem with the universal health care model.

 

[metis]

As one who has spent much time in Canada and still do, and also one who gets both Canadian t.v. and radio stations, I have never run across a Canadian yet who has said they'd rather switch to the U.S. system. Matter of fact, the highest ranking historical figure in all of Canadian history is the Saskatchewan doctor who basically invented the system they are now using.

I'll take Canada's system any day of the week for the general populace, even though there's some serious issues that they're having to deal with as well.

 

[Alceste]

As one who has spent much time in Canada and still do, and also one who gets both Canadian t.v. and radio stations, I have never run across a Canadian yet who has said they'd rather switch to the U.S. system. Matter of fact, the highest ranking historical figure in all of Canadian history is the Saskatchewan doctor who basically invented the system they are now using.

I'll take Canada's system any day of the week for the general populace, even though there's some serious issues that they're having to deal with as well.

Our biggest issue with health care right now is that our idiot prime minister wants to cut 36 billion dollars from it, immediately after giving 50 billion in tax breaks to the richest corporations in the country.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes, if a rich Canadian wants a coffee and a foot rub with their stitches, they go to the US and pay out of pocket for it.

You imagine spa services, while I think of orthopedic surgical approaches.
In our system, I was able to interview multiple surgeons, eventually picking a
prof at Johns Hopkins, & having the work done at the hospital where he was
chief of staff. I wanted the best method, people & facility, & I got'm.

Two drawbacks though....Good Sam required a religion, so I invented "born again
pedestrian". (That's where it all began.) I was also unable to convince him to use
any of the surgical tools my dept at Black & Decker was working on.

 

[Alceste]

You imagine spa services, while I think of orthopedic surgical approaches.
In our system, I was able to interview multiple surgeons, eventually picking a
prof at Johns Hopkins, & having the work done at the hospital where he was
chief of staff. I wanted the best method, people & facility, & I got'm.

Two drawbacks though....Good Sam required a religion, so I invented "born again
pedestrian". (That's where it all began.) I was also unable to convince him to use
any of the surgical tools my dept at Black & Decker was working on.

You can shop around for doctors in Canada as well. It can sometimes be difficult to find a GP who is taking new patients, but again that's a funding / staffing issue and not something I consider to be particularly serious.

 

[Sapiens]

By contrast, I lived in Montreal and had one incident that required medical attention. First I called a nurse hotline to describe my symptoms (splitting headache, double vision, had persisted for about a week and made it impossible to sleep). She told me to go straight to the ER, so I did, and they saw me right away. As it turns out, the symptoms I described could have indicated meningitis, which is very serious. I got an MRI, blood tests, saw a doctor and a nurse, etc. all in an afternoon, at the end of which the doctor said I seemed to be fine and my symptoms were probably caused by a vertebra out of alignment in my neck. He showed me a little trick to straighten it out, which I did right there and then, heard a little click and the headache started to dissipate immediately. He gave me a prescription for some pretty hardcore painkillers and sleeping pills anyway.

When it came time to pay the bill... oh wait, there was no bill.

My point is that hospitals will prioritize serious injuries and illnesses, which sometimes means that people with minor bumps and scrapes wait a little longer. It would be great to serve everybody right away, but that's a funding issue (e.g. hiring adequate staff to process demand), not a problem with the universal health care model.

The problem is that so many Gringos prioritize medical care on the basis of mine vs. yours, "mine" is almost always life threatening and "yours" can usually wait.