Is Pain And Suffering The Only Way To Convince Atheists That There Is A God

[LuisDantas]

It seems clear to me that if there is a God, he does not particularly care to be believed in.

If he is worth of any notice in the first place, that is.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

you did not understand post #1. Plenty of evidence in this world, but you just ignore it.

There is no evidence at all in this world for a god. The strongest argument that you can make for the existence of a god is also the strongest argument you can make for the existence of vampires: Nobody can rule them out.

We have no need for either of those ideas.

"I am in a building with 4 rooms, and I have only been in 1 room. In order to say that every room is empty, I would have to have knowledge of all 4 rooms. I would need to know the entirety of what I am claiming to know. However, to state the opposite, that the building is not empty, I would at the very least only need to know about one room."

False analogy. I don't even need to enter the house to tell you that there are no married bachelors in it. Jehovah is the married bachelor of gods. He's the god who grants free will but knows how it will turn out. He's the god that allegedly exists outside of time, yet still manages to act and think, both requiring a before and after moment. He's the omnipotent god that wants to be found but cannot be. He's the perfect god in possession of timeless, absolute, objective moral standards that sometimes that regrets his actions and frequently updates his moral code.

Outrageous claims undermine the apologist's purpose:

 

[Akivah]

Atheists always claim they have to have evidence that God exists, but history shows us different. Once you provide the evidence, then end up forgetting that or they want even more evidence such that every atheist must be convinced.

I agree with you. Miracles are a poor way to convince anyone about G-d. There is a story in the Talmud of two people that walked across the split sea, who spent the entire time looking down and complaining about the mud on their sandals, instead of looking up and seeing the miracle.

In fact, Torah explicitly states that a person that appears to perform miracles to demonstrate a god, should be ignored. Then Pharaoh's magicians replicated several miracles that Moses performed, proving that anyone can appear to do miracles with tricks.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Thirdly, what's wrong with saying "I don't know" if one doesn't know?

Partly, many people's over-inflated and fragile egos.

Partly, many people's visceral fear of the unknown.

 

[james bond]

I would like to think otherwise, that a discourse of pure logic would lead someone to God,
but that path is perhaps open to agnostics.

Still, the atheist is a tougher nut to crack. But I would suggest that the type of pain and suffering
should be of a purely psychological nature; and that physical pain may often cause a retreat
of the mind into a more confused and paranoid state.

My own path from Deism to Christianity involved pursuing the false idol of romance to the point
of broken hearts too many to mention. This eventually resulted in me realizing that there just HAD TO BE
something higher and more perfect to pursue than romance.

Pure logic on RF has not led anywhere. It is what it is. What is weird are atheists who think I am trying to change them. They claim there is no free will. That all is determined already and that choices won't be made, i.e. choice is an illusion. That's delusional.

As for psychological suffering, isn't that worse? People may assume hell is torture by burning, but I think that's a Roman Catholic creation. One would heal from a scorpion sting even though it looks scary. I understand that hell could be one of woe of losing one's spiritually self and thus, their identity.

Maybe I don't understand, but I think what you mean is sex. Just using people for sex doesn't lead to happiness. It's selfishness that leads to regrets. I've experienced it myself.

 

[james bond]

I agree with you. Miracles are a poor way to convince anyone about G-d. There is a story in the Talmud of two people that walked across the split sea, who spent the entire time looking down and complaining about the mud on their sandals, instead of looking up and seeing the miracle.

In fact, Torah explicitly states that a person that appears to perform miracles to demonstrate a god, should be ignored. Then Pharaoh's magicians replicated several miracles that Moses performed, proving that anyone can appear to do miracles with tricks.

Good point. I didn't think people who would not believe would think it was some sort of trick. It's true that people will see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear. Thus, one has to go outside of their own comfort zone to discover the truth.

 

[james bond]

Partly, many people's over-inflated and fragile egos.

Partly, many people's visceral fear of the unknown.

The egos are that which we deal with here. As for fear of the unknown, we can never be for sure if it can be known. The Bible says God said he will keep the beginning and end to himself. This caused the unknown such as the age of the earth or age of the universe. Everything else, we will be able to find the truth or add to our knowledge.

 

[Nakosis]

Atheists always claim they have to have evidence that God exists, but history shows us different. Once you provide the evidence, then end up forgetting like that which happened to Jesus Christ or they want even more evidence such that every atheist must be convinced.

I agree, miracles are kind of pointless. It's just something religious folks keep trying to offer as proof.

What I wonder though is why God needs me to believe?

 

[ChristineM]

Atheists always claim they have to have evidence that God exists, but history shows us different. Once you provide the evidence, then end up forgetting like that which happened to Jesus Christ or they want even more evidence such that every atheist must be convinced.

Then the Bible says otherwise. The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved. The Bible says that we must accept by faith the fact that God exists:

"Jesus performed countless miracles, yet the vast majority of people did not believe in Him. If God performed miracles today as He did in the past, the result would be the same. People would be amazed and would believe in God for a short time. That faith would be shallow and would disappear the moment something unexpected or frightening occurred. A faith based on miracles is not a mature faith. God performed the greatest “God miracle” of all time in coming to earth as the Man Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins (Romans 5:8) so that we could be saved (John 3:16). God does still perform miracles—many of them simply go unnoticed or are denied. However, we do not need more miracles. What we need is to believe in the miracle of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ."

Does God still perform miracles?

Lawrence Krauss is a professor of physics at Arizona State University. He said evidence for God would be as follows.

"Now, it would be easy to have evidence for God. If the stars rearrange themselves tonight and I looked up tonight—well not here, but in a place where you could see the stars, in Arizona, say,—and I looked up tonight and I saw the stars rearrange themselves say, “I am here.”

The Craig - Krauss Debate at North Carolina State University | Reasonable Faith

Later, another atheist responded that he would not accept the stars rearranging themselves because people south of the equator would not be able to see this.

Thus, the only way I see to convince atheist is pain and suffering. If they knew God brought this upon them, then they would have to believe. It's like they brought it upon themselves. You asked for it. You got it. Of course, this is what I think happens in the afterlife. The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved in this life.

I have a video on pain and suffering. Maybe this is one of the methods.

Still no proof of god then?

And a scorpion sting is going to hurt, you don't need a god belief to know that.

 

[james bond]

I agree, miracles are kind of pointless. It's just something religious folks keep trying to offer as proof.

What I wonder though is why God needs me to believe?

To me miracles are interesting to talk about, but not why one should believe or put their faith in God. I've seen people use it as evidence and that's fine.

>>What I wonder though is why God needs me to believe?<<

In a word, it's faith. God wants you to believe in him, his great works and have an appreciation of his power, glory and kingdom that he has in store for you. God wants us to obey him, i.e. trust him, and with all that he has done, then it's easy.

 

[james bond]

Still no proof of god then?

And a scorpion sting is going to hurt, you don't need a god belief to know that.

Maybe the internet atheist doesn't like to read my post #1. I dunno.

The scorpion sting was to determine which sting was more painful. Maybe the takeaway is that which is more painful may not be what you think it is going to be.

 

[Nakosis]

I would like to think otherwise, that a discourse of pure logic would lead someone to God,

I've always felt a person should lead by example.

And, what example are we going to look at? Certainly not Christians. If God was around, maybe.

Here's the problem, what is the real benefit of believing in God verses not believing in God?

I don't see that benefit in Christians. Doesn't seem to make them any better than other folks. Doesn't seem to make their life better. They get screwed by life just as much as non-believers.

Good things, bad thing are done bad and happen to both. So what's the point in believing if it doesn't really change anything?

 

[Nakosis]

In a word, it's faith. God wants you to believe in him, his great works and have an appreciation of his power, glory and kingdom that he has in store for you. God wants us to obey him, i.e. trust him, and with all that he has done, then it's easy.

My question though is why? Why does God want this. God being God shouldn't have any wants.

I can't believe that God's ego is so fragile that God needs my belief. So it must be some other reason. I can't see where my belief or disbelief causes God any harm. I can't see where my belief or disbelief cause any benefit to me or God.

 

[ChristineM]

Maybe the internet atheist doesn't like to read my post #1. I dunno.

The scorpion sting was to determine which sting was more painful. Maybe the takeaway is that which is more painful may not be what you think it is going to be.

And what has it to do with your evangelical diatribe?

 

[james bond]

And what has it to do with your evangelical diatribe?

It's an argument. What else can one do if there is no proof for existence (and no proof the God doesn't exist either and this is the more difficult proof) and the atheists disavow the evidence?

I can give you the entire Christian argument instead, but see my above statement.

 

[suncowiam]

More like, pain and suffering should convince folks that there there is no God. If there was a God, he wouldn't allow pain and suffering.

Yeah?

 

[Sunstone]

Hell is for people who don't believe in your God? You know, if I were going to believe in a god, I think I'd try to find one who reasoned even a little bit better than you do, Bond.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

So... to sum up, you hope atheists get such a huge dose of pain and suffering that they have no recourse but to turn to belief in God? Not quite sure how the logistics on that work out to make this a spiritual "equation"... but it sounds to me a lot like interrogating someone under strenuous circumstances until you get the confession you're after.

 

[ChristineM]

It's an argument. What else can one do if there is no proof for existence (and no proof the God doesn't exist either and this is the more difficult proof) and the atheists disavow the evidence?

I can give you the entire Christian argument instead, but see my above statement.

No, its not an argument, its a straw man.

Actually there are several proofs that the bible god does not or cannot exist. Just that the faithful believer will not accept them and creates all sorts of apologetics to deny that they apply to their version of god.

 

[SabahTheLoner]

Suffering is actually the thing that convinced me there was no God as Christians say there is. So sorry, no convincing me through pain.