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Featured Is Pain And Suffering The Only Way To Convince Atheists That There Is A God

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by james bond, Jun 19, 2017.

  1. james bond

    james bond Well-Known Member

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    Atheists always claim they have to have evidence that God exists, but history shows us different. Once you provide the evidence, then end up forgetting like that which happened to Jesus Christ or they want even more evidence such that every atheist must be convinced.

    Then the Bible says otherwise. The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved. The Bible says that we must accept by faith the fact that God exists:

    "Jesus performed countless miracles, yet the vast majority of people did not believe in Him. If God performed miracles today as He did in the past, the result would be the same. People would be amazed and would believe in God for a short time. That faith would be shallow and would disappear the moment something unexpected or frightening occurred. A faith based on miracles is not a mature faith. God performed the greatest “God miracle” of all time in coming to earth as the Man Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins (Romans 5:8) so that we could be saved (John 3:16). God does still perform miracles—many of them simply go unnoticed or are denied. However, we do not need more miracles. What we need is to believe in the miracle of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ."

    Does God still perform miracles?

    Lawrence Krauss is a professor of physics at Arizona State University. He said evidence for God would be as follows.

    "Now, it would be easy to have evidence for God. If the stars rearrange themselves tonight and I looked up tonight—well not here, but in a place where you could see the stars, in Arizona, say,—and I looked up tonight and I saw the stars rearrange themselves say, “I am here.”

    The Craig - Krauss Debate at North Carolina State University | Reasonable Faith

    Later, another atheist responded that he would not accept the stars rearranging themselves because people south of the equator would not be able to see this.

    Thus, the only way I see to convince atheist is pain and suffering. If they knew God brought this upon them, then they would have to believe. It's like they brought it upon themselves. You asked for it. You got it. Of course, this is what I think happens in the afterlife. The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved in this life.

    I have a video on pain and suffering. Maybe this is one of the methods.

     
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  2. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity POWERFUL BEAN
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    I think it says to live like God exists and that passive acceptance is not viable faith.

    Why then do so many pastors and Christians insist that evidence proves God exists? Will the real atheists please stand up?

    I Peter describes how you can gain converts. Live right, accept criticism from suspicious people, proving their suspicions to be wrong with your life. This will give them faith, and you will bear their sins.
     
  3. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    Sour grapes? You can't give an argument for your god that will convince a non-believer, but there can't be anything wrong with your argument, so there must be something wrong with them... right?
     
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  4. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    I would expect at least the same level of proof of religious claims as I would of werewolves.
     
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  5. james bond

    james bond Well-Known Member

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    :rolleyes:. I was going to give you a facepalm, but an eyeroll should suffice.

    What part did you not understand of "the Bible says otherwise. The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved. The Bible says that we must accept by faith the fact that God exists>"

    This is by design since we have a positive test this time instead of a negative test. The negative test led to the destruction of everyone in the world except for Noah.

    There isn't an argument to convince a non-believer if they do not want to believe. The change happens within oneself. We've all gone through this.
     
  6. james bond

    james bond Well-Known Member

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    Nyet.

    >>Why then do so many pastors and Christians insist that evidence proves God exists?<<

    Just because we can't prove or disprove God, it does not mean that there is no evidence of God’s existence. I've provide the evidence on RF, too.

    >>I Peter describes how you can gain converts. Live right, accept criticism from suspicious people, proving their suspicions to be wrong with your life. This will give them faith, and you will bear their sins.<<

    I provided my own testimony on RF and elsewhere. What have you done, brother?
     
  7. james bond

    james bond Well-Known Member

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    You're assuming mythology. Myths can be disproven.
     
  8. james bond

    james bond Well-Known Member

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    Please watch the video and learn which one provides the more powerful sting. Creation scientists will say this is by design and shows intelligence.

    The Bible says miracles are forgotten because of pain and suffering in one's life or some other catastrophic event. Isn't this true? The fewer negatives always end up negating much of the good. The sins of the few make it harder, i.e. punish the many for the sins of the few.
     
  9. Kilgore Trout

    Kilgore Trout Misanthropic Humanist

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    We need verifiable, objective evidence. Stories written by ancient goat herders or people's subjective "feelings" or shoddy "proofs" do not constitute any type of valid evidence.

    Indeed. Religious people would be well-served to be honest enough to admit that their beliefs are based on nothing more than faith, not evidence.

    Of course, as is often the case with religious people projecting their psyches and biases onto their version of god, this says a lot more about you than it does about god or atheists. And, small-minded maliciousness has never convinced anyone of anything.
     
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  10. Father Heathen

    Father Heathen uǝɥʇɐǝH ɹǝɥʇɐℲ

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    If this is so, then why do Christians still try to debate it?

    It's disturbing how, of all of the things that believers tend to project upon god, sadomasochistic fetishism and revenge fantasies are among the most common.
     
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  11. james bond

    james bond Well-Known Member

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    Already, you're starting off wrong. Second, you did not understand post #1. Plenty of evidence in this world, but you just ignore it.

    >>Religious people would be well-served to be honest enough to admit that their beliefs are based on nothing more than faith, not evidence.<<

    Ha ha. The same applies to atheists. They can not disprove. However, the believers have the advantage over atheists. It's the believers' advantage.

    "I am in a building with 4 rooms, and I have only been in 1 room. In order to say that every room is empty, I would have to have knowledge of all 4 rooms. I would need to know the entirety of what I am claiming to know.

    However, to state the opposite, that the building is not empty, I would at the very least only need to know about one room."

    Finally, it is maliciousness, but how else can atheists be convinced in the afterlife with free will? The Bible already states there is a place for the fallen angels.
     
  12. james bond

    james bond Well-Known Member

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    Ha ha. The atheists are the one who try and debate it. They keep coming up how God does not exist, but come up empty. They think evolution disproves God, but it doesn't. It just shows evolution isn't really science. Christians come up with aliens don't exist and we find this is true. That beauty and complexity in our world provides evidence of God.

    >>It's disturbing how, of all of the things that believers tend to project upon god, sadomasochistic fetishism and revenge fantasies are among the most common.<<

    This is totally bizarre. The youtube is for general audiences and you relate it to the porn that you watch.
     
  13. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    Refuting atheism is easy. Just produce a god.
     
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  14. Kilgore Trout

    Kilgore Trout Misanthropic Humanist

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    Some of us have more stringent standards for evidence than others. People can find evidence of anything they're looking for if they're blind to cognitive biases and are not able (or don't care to) discern factual information from wishful thinking.

    I'm an atheist. I have no idea whether there is something we would call a god or not. I only have the advantage of intellectual honesty. Admittedly, something many others do not value. That's their choice.

    If you think your maliciousness is a path to convincing anyone of anything, you're not only mistaken, you're also horribly misguided.
     
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  15. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity POWERFUL BEAN
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    Agree that would not logically follow. There's no proof because God is hidden. If we could prove God through physical evidence, then God would be unhidden, not invisible. It is part of the whole shebang.

    I believe in more reliable methods, and I have zero plans to convert anyone here in the forum which is a kind of Switzerland for religions. Besides I do not think my life is that bright of a light. I joined the Quakers to get some encouragement to live better and more usefully, and its working. Anyway I don't think sharing a personal story in an internet forum is going to convert anybody. At best it will generate some conversation.
     
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  16. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    [stands up]

    I can't imagine what could convince me that a god exists, if by god we mean a conscious agent capable of producing universes. Nothin that happened in this universe would qualify. I could always be the work of an extremely advanced civilization that arose naturalistically within this universe by abiogenesis and evolution.
    • "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke
    That wouldn't make me convert from atheism to any brand of theism, and nothing makes faith based thought seem like a good idea.

    Such behavior would, however, if enough did it, convert me from antitheism, or the belief that certain religions in their organized, politicized form are a net negative force, back to where I was when I left Christianity - an atheist with no negative opinion about the church or its mission.
     
  17. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Why would God cause anyone to have pain and suffering?

    Secondly, why would anyone blindly accept a belief whereas there's no clear evidence that this "something" actually is real?

    Thirdly, what's wrong with saying "I don't know" if one doesn't know?
     
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  18. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    Then the Bible is wrong. I don't have to accept anything by faith, and as far as I know, I don't.

    No, that is by necessity. The Christian god does not exist because it cannot. It is logically impossible in over a dozen different ways.

    If it existed, we would have to say that it does the perfect impression of a nonexistent god - always choosing to do what would happen if this were a godless universe and it didn't exist. It can't prevent the expression of freewill that defies its commandments, it can't defend its church from erosion and loss of cultural hegemony, it can't produce better human beings through its teachings, it can't write a coherent holy book, it can't be found, it isn't found in any of our scientific theories, there is no evidence of it at any scale from quantum to cosmological, it can't ease human suffering, it doesn't answer prayer - I could go on, but I think I made the point: In every case, the world is as it would be were it godless.

    I have a more reasonable interpretation of the meaning of that - no active gods.

    There isn't an argument to convince a skeptic. Skeptics need a reason to believe. We don't choose what to believe. We are slaves to reason and evidence. What they support, we believe whether we like it or not. For example, I believe that we will see the catastrophes that climate scientists warn us that global warming will create. It's clear that the will to prevent that is not sufficient to overcome the will to cause it. That's not something I want to believe. It's something that I have no choice but to believe.

    I also believe that America's race is run, and that it will never be great again (I don't define greatness in terms of wealth or military might). That's something that I would also rather not believe, but it's not up to me. My mind looks at the evidence, and that is the likeliest outcome.
     
  19. Jonathan Ainsley Bain

    Jonathan Ainsley Bain Logical Positivist

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    I would like to think otherwise, that a discourse of pure logic would lead someone to God,
    but that path is perhaps open to agnostics.

    Still, the atheist is a tougher nut to crack. But I would suggest that the type of pain and suffering
    should be of a purely psychological nature; and that physical pain may often cause a retreat
    of the mind into a more confused and paranoid state.

    My own path from Deism to Christianity involved pursuing the false idol of romance to the point
    of broken hearts too many to mention. This eventually resulted in me realizing that there just HAD TO BE
    something higher and more perfect to pursue than romance.
     
  20. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    I think that you have that backwards. Pain and suffering don't cause people to forget miracles. They cause them to want one.

    The two times in a person's life when he is most vulnerable to religious indoctrination are before he has learned to think (hence the insatiable desire on the part of the church to pierce the church-state wall and inject creationism and state led prayer back into the public schools), and when people are despondent, which is why it is so much easier to convert people on Death Row and Skid Row than on Restaurant Row.
     
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