I notice in a Greek Interlinear Translation at both places at Matthew 19:16 and John 3:36 from the Greek it says: life everlasting
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Is Jesus God?
- Thread starter Orbit
- Start date
I notice in a Greek Interlinear Translation at both places at Matthew 19:16 and John 3:36 from the Greek it says: life everlasting
However, being made eternal still does Not make what is mortal as becoming immortal.
Adam was never offered immortality, but as long as Adam did Not break God's Law then mortal Adam could live forever on earth.
Even sinner Satan is Not death proof but also mortal because Jesus will destroy Satan - Hebrews 2:14 B.
Those resurrected to heaven - Revelation 20:6 - have a first or earlier resurrection over the majority of mankind. They are the ones offered immortality in the heavens.
Most people will end up with being able to live forever on a beautiful paradisical earth as Eden originally was - Matthew 5:5; Proverbs 2:21-22
Through Christ's millennium-long day of governing over earth: all earth's nations will be blessed with being healed - Revelation 22:2
So, although remaining mortal as Adam was, we, unlike Adam, can gain living forever ( life everlasting ) on earth once the wicked are destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7
james2ko
Well-Known Member
Reflecting the opinion of those translators. The NKJV translators deem the terms synonymous.
According to Revelation 1:5; Revelation 3:14 B Jesus had a beginning. So, Jesus was Not ' before ' the beginning as God was ' before ' the beginning - Psalms 90:2
God granted faithful Jesus to have life in himself ( immortality ) - John 5:26. You might also want to see John 6:53 because Not everyone who lived on earth partakes.
The word ' father ' means: life giver.
Because of Jesus' faithful death, then Jesus was given the power of the resurrection - Revelation 1:18
Because Jesus will resurrect people back to life again ( such as even King David - Acts of the Apostles 2:34 ) then Jesus as ' life giver ' becomes their everlasting ( eternal ) father.
Under Christ's millennium-long day of governing over earth, then on earth even ' enemy death ' will be No more - 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8
james2ko
Well-Known Member
I agree. At the resurrection, Christians will obtain an immortal body not subject to human decay and death, but can potentially be destroyed. I will take it a step further and speculate a resurrected Christian's eternal existence will require partaking of the tree of life every so often to maintain their eternal status (Rev 22:2) For those who disobey, their right to the tree of life will be revoked and eventually die (Rev 22:14). This is off topic so I will not comment any further.
moorea944
Well-Known Member
Let us use the KJV version to get nearer:
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Who made himself of no reputation? Who made not to be equal with God? Who??
Do you know what you are saying when you said “Jesus could have sinned if He wanted to”? There is no such thing as Jesus will have a choice, that is illogical. How can Jesus, a Saviour, a God sent, the one who forgive sins—becomes a sinner?
God sent Jesus Christ with no sin. God already planned the coming of Jesus, this was even prophesied in the book of Isaiah.
That means made Himself of no reputation. He came here on earth as man in the flesh to live with us. He is God who is in the form (person) of man. He added humanity in His Deity.
No. It is not changing but adding humanity of His Deity as God.
5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
It is clearly said that the “who” here is referring to Christ. The term “form” is morphe.
morphé: form, shape
Original Word: μορφή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: morphé
Phonetic Spelling: (mor-fay')
Short Definition: form, shape, outward appearance
Definition: form, shape, outward appearance.
How can Jesus can’t be God if the Scripture clearly emphasized “morphe” as form. If you will notice, there is the form of God and there is the form of a servant (man).
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
If you believed that Jesus is a man as the Scripture says in the form of a servant, why not for the form of God. That would come out that there is a bias of understanding in the context and inconsistency.
Yes, I agree with you. No problem with that. Everything that Jesus did in His ministry is for the glory of the Father (God). What you did not see is their unity between the Father and Jesus Christ. Jesus said they are one with the Father. Isn’t it? What the Father does, He (Jesus) also does. This only shows that God came here in the person of Jesus Christ that is in flesh, not only in flesh yet He is also divine. He is Emmanuel, God with us.
Do you mean that God (Father) was the same person as Jesus Christ? or do you mean that God is Jesus Christ?
Thanks[/QUOTE]
The Messiah had to be someone like us. And NOT a God. There is a reason for that too. He had to conquer sin or sin in the flesh. That is why God had to have a son through a woman to inherit Adam's transgression. Heb 2, along with many other chapters, tell us that Jesus WAS like us in everyway. He was tempted in all points as we are.
We have to remember that because God was his father, he had direct access to him and manifested his father's charator and will perfectly.
Bible doesnt tell us that. Trinitarians do....
Jesus is in the form of God. But he is not God. He is in the form of God in a way that he has a mind of spiritual things from his father, he is just like his father in will and purpose. God "gave" everything to his son.
Jesus was NOT born perfect, scripture tells us that. He was made perfect "through" the things that he suffered.
Neither. I never said that at all. Jesus is not God. Jesus is the son of God. God's son. Re-read my post. God was in Christ. God manifest Himself in Christ. He can do that in angels or even us.
moorea944
Well-Known Member
I agree with you that Jesus was not here before the beginning. Why? He wasnt born yet. But , he was in God's plans and ideas in the beginning. He had Jesus in mind when he created everything. Jesus IS the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. But what creation.... Paul says the're are two. Jesus is the second one.
Oeste
Well-Known Member
My questions were designed to find out more of your Christology and whether theologically you were a Oneness Pentecostal, Socinian, or other religion that believes God manifests himself in different modes.
No, I'm stating Jesus is the Creator (John 1:3)
moorea944
Well-Known Member
Ok, sorry, my fault then. Well, I'll tell you one thing though. I'm not sure about the different modes, I wouldnt say it like that, but scripture does tell us that God manifests Himself into individauls or multitudes. That is why I say that. I just wouldnt use the language of "modes".
Well, we know that Jesus is not the creator, because our God is. We know that Jesus is NOT God or the creator. All through the OT, it is YAHWEH or GOD that has created everything. Jesus wasnt born yet. John 1v3 is talking about God, not Jesus. Read Isaiah 43 & 45, plus, there are a ton of psalms too on this subject. We only have one creator, that is our God. Again, Jesus wasnt born yet....
That's an excellent point, James! Just like an example phrase given in a dictionary, "the secret of eternal youth." (Obviously, not 'forever in the past.') I'm going to use this!
Hello, hope you're having a good evening, Yoshua.
The first one, where many translations (not all) say Jesus as the Word is "with God", yet he "is God"; c'mon, you know the verse: John 1:1. But translated the way it is in most Bible's, it contradicts itself....especially vs.18, "no man has seen God"; people saw Jesus. So how should the Greek words at John 1:1 be translated, considering Greek grammar?
A highly respected scholar and trinitarian, Roman Catholic priest John L. McKenzie, in his "Dictionary of the Bible," (New York,1965), p. 317, says: "Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated 'the word was with the God [= the Father], and the word was a divine being.'" --- (Brackets are his. Published with nihil obstat and imprimatur.)
Now why would he, a trinitarian, say this? Because of the sentence structure.
Unfortunately, Koine Greek grammar being what it was, it did not have the indefinite articles that we in English use (= a, an). All they had was the definite article, 'the.' With that in mind, translating John 1:1 word for word, it says this: " in beginning (notice, not even THE beginning) THE word was. And THE word was with (or, toward) THE god, and god (notice, not THE God) was THE word." See? 'The god' and 'god' are different. (If John had meant Jesus was God Almighty, he would've said, "....and THE god was THE word." But that would have contradicted the context, because he also wrote that the Word was WITH the God. How can you be 'with' a person, and also BE that person?? Plus, he wrote vs. 18, "no man has seen God at ANY TIME." People saw Jesus.)
John would not have written something so ambiguous, to cause confusion. Remember, many of the Christians were former Jews, who had it INGRAINED in them that God was Yahweh, and He was "one God"-- literally. (Deuteronomy 6:4) If things HAD changed -- that Jesus was ALSO God -- the Bible writers would have BENT OVER BACKWARDS saying Jesus was God, CONSTANTLY writing it, trying to prove to their listeners/readers that issue. The Bible would be OVERFLOWING WITH SUCH STATEMENTS.
But no, that is not the case. Those writers kept saying things about Jesus' LORDship,-- that he was the Savior, -- not about Jesus' godship. 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 shows a distinct separateness between God and Jesus. Notice, it doesn't say 'God the Holy Spirit' -- simply 'one God, the Father.' Jesus said in John 4:23-24 that God IS the Father, and that God IS a spirit; at that time, Jesus was a human.
Anyway, back to the subject. What DID John mean?
In the phrase,".....and god (notice, not THE God) was THE word," the singular anarthrous predicate noun coming BEFORE the subject; this can, in Greek, indicate a quality the subject possesses, as in the subject being divine. Here are examples of other Translations rendering it as such:
"The Bible -- An American Translation," by Smith and Goodspeed, reads: "the Word was divine."
"A New Translation of the Bible," by James Moffatt, says: "the Logos was divine."
"The New Testament in an Improved Version," published in London, reads: "the word was a god."
"New World Translation" reads the same.
"2001 Translation", an online Bible with numerous links, renders it, "the Word was a powerful one."
These all agree with the context....also agreeing with Greek rules of grammar.
It seems that trinitarian 'proof-texts' always comes down to grammar.
"Yes, that is good to hear that you confessed Jesus is your Saviour.
Thanks"
Definitely! Peace. Take care!
Last edited:
firedragon
Veteran Member
"In the beginning was the word and the word was God. And the word was God" is a translation of the Koine Greek right. The Greek goes like this.
En Arche, en ho logos,
In principle (Can be translated as "beginning"), was the word. Notice 'ho' as an article. the word.
kai ho logos en pros ton theon
and the word was towards (can be translated as "with") God. Now notice the article 'ton' before God 'theon'.
Kai theos en ho logo.
And "God" was the word. Notice there is no article before 'theos'.
When you refer to God as in "The God" there is always an article 'ho' or 'ton'. When there is no article it is an attribute.
So it should read "Godly was the word". The word was God translation is not correct though accepted widely because there arent many lines in the four canonical gospels to show that Jesus is God.
Actually if you read any of the Gospels none of them claim authorship. Anyway the author of John seems to have picked up theological ideas of various people. One would wonder why he is so very different from the previous books. Either there were 2 or 3 Jesus's or there were 2 or 3 ideologies about him.
Anyway Logos or Word is the word of God. Jesus is accepted as the Word of God. Jesus spoke Gods words. God did not utter Jesus, Jesus spoke for God.
En Pros has been translated as with. That does not mean he was with God as a person.
Now Jesus tells his disciples in the same Gospel that You are in me as I in you. We are one. That does not mean the disciples are also part of the trinity or as extended family. That means we have the same agenda.
With God means the same.
En Arche, en ho logos,
In principle (Can be translated as "beginning"), was the word. Notice 'ho' as an article. the word.
kai ho logos en pros ton theon
and the word was towards (can be translated as "with") God. Now notice the article 'ton' before God 'theon'.
Kai theos en ho logo.
And "God" was the word. Notice there is no article before 'theos'.
When you refer to God as in "The God" there is always an article 'ho' or 'ton'. When there is no article it is an attribute.
So it should read "Godly was the word". The word was God translation is not correct though accepted widely because there arent many lines in the four canonical gospels to show that Jesus is God.
Actually if you read any of the Gospels none of them claim authorship. Anyway the author of John seems to have picked up theological ideas of various people. One would wonder why he is so very different from the previous books. Either there were 2 or 3 Jesus's or there were 2 or 3 ideologies about him.
Anyway Logos or Word is the word of God. Jesus is accepted as the Word of God. Jesus spoke Gods words. God did not utter Jesus, Jesus spoke for God.
En Pros has been translated as with. That does not mean he was with God as a person.
Now Jesus tells his disciples in the same Gospel that You are in me as I in you. We are one. That does not mean the disciples are also part of the trinity or as extended family. That means we have the same agenda.
With God means the same.
Jesus was the agent that God used at John 1:3; 1 Corinthians 8:6
Is John saying Jesus is the Creator because what does John say at John 1:18 A but that No man has seen God at any time, but didn't people see Jesus ?_____
What did John write at 1 John 4:12 ?
What does Exodus 33:20 say about seeing God ?
At Adam's beginning, Adam could have lived eternally on earth as long as he did Not break God's Law. ( Adam had No pre-human existence and simply returned to dust - Genesis 3:19)
Will the people of Matthew 12:32 be made eternal ?
Will the people of Hebrews 6:4-6 be made eternal ?
To whom does God direct His mercy - Psalms 103:11; Psalms 103:17
What happens to the wicked according to Psalms 92:7 ?
james2ko
Well-Known Member
Your reply and passages have nothing to do with Oeste and I's conversation. We were discussing whether or not the term eternal only applies to the uncreated.
Yoshua
Well-Known Member
Hi firedragon,
Well. That is a misunderstanding of the whole attributes of Christ. Did you fully know what attributes did Jesus have? As I showed the Scripture to you about bowing down, fell down and worship Him.
As I said before about the confession of Thomas to Christ as My God proved that He is God. Why try to disregard His deity if the Scripture obviously referring to Christ Jesus?
Does a man can say your sins are forgiven? Why Jesus did not say “I will ask the Father if your sin is forgiven or not”?
Does a man can say you are saved? Is it logical to say that a Saviour should be a man to save our soul and can bring us to eternity?
Absolutely, so using them as an example is not applicable. How about Jesus? Is Jesus the same as Moses? Can you differentiate who is Moses and who is Jesus? It’s absolutely clear enough that one is a Saviour, and God sent while Moses is the only instrument by God to save the Israelites from the bondage of Egypt.
Yeah! I’ve been there about respect but when you check the prophecies, whole Scriptures from context to narratives about Jesus plus His attributes, you will clearly see who Jesus was. I may post all attributes of Christ if you like.
The statement is a very bold statement that Jesus is the Son of God. I’m just proving it to you.
Verifying the truth about Jesus divinity/deity does not need all should come from Jesus Christ. There are witnesses, testimonies, prophecies, and revelations about Christ Jesus. If you will notice in the narratives, Jesus rebukes, and correct if there are lies or untruth words that refers to Him. In my example of these two occasions, Jesus did not corrected them instead He uttered the word “Blessed” He acknowledged their statements.
Thanks
Yoshua
Well-Known Member
Hi Moorea,
How can a man become a Saviour of our soul?
God came down and exists in the person of Jesus Christ, that is what all of the Scriptures is telling us.Phil.2:6-8
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
There are two form here as stated in Philippians. If Jesus is only a man and not God—as in the form of a servant (human), why it should be mentioned that He took upon him the form of a servant??
Then, why it should be mentioned here that He did not demand or regard equality with God if Jesus is not God?? What make Him to be equal in the first place?
Now, if we are studying the text without bias, there is the form of a servant (human), and there is a form of God (divine).
If you believed that He is a man (form of a servant), why not for the form of God?? Where is the consistency of understanding the Scripture if we did not consider its context.
When you say Jesus is the Son of God, that would mean there is a person of Jesus Christ. Now, when you say God was in Christ, do you mean that God was inside Christ? one person or another person?
Thanks
Yoshua
Well-Known Member
Hi Hockeycowboy,
John 1:1
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Let me post the Greek text format (interlinear).
En arche en ho logos kai ho logos En pros ton theon kai theos en ho logos
In beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and God was the Word.
Actually, the format would be God was the Word, even if you try to make it as the Word was God, it does not change the meaning. Greek and English formatting are entirely different.
Why use “god”? Using a god is wrong. It cannot be assumed that if the definite article is absent, then an indefinite article should be inserted.
Yes, the word “the” is used, but do you think it is proper and right to put “the” as the Word with the God?
When you say “the God was the Word,” I don’t think it would change the meaning of the Word was God.
This is where the Greek term logos was used that referred to a message, not just a single word. If we look at the context, the title which the Greeks used is "reason" and for Hebrews "Wisdom." John chose this term to assert that God's Word is both a person and a message.
Thanks
firedragon
Veteran Member
Brother Yoshua. Yes I know the attributes Jesus had. You mean his divine attributes right? Yes I do.
But he also has other attributes, but you will say "well he was human". Like "Jesus wept", "Jesus thirst" etc. For that the general answer is "God was in human form". But then, why do you talk of Godly attributes when he was in human form? Was he God or not? If God became a human, would he weep? He is the everknowing, the creator.
Fell down and worship does not make a person a God. That is why I said that there were many who were worshipped like that in the bible. Everyone must be God then.
So your point is, again, that Thomas said to Jesus "My God" and that makes Jesus God. Thats an exclamation. A third party exclamation. Your salvation relies on this kind of third party utterences! Bro, speak to a scholar in the NT, they will not use this quote to prove Jesus is God. You will see preachers and layman apologists using this.
God Himself, YHWH himself calls Moses Elohim. Even that doesnt make anyone else God.
Does a man can say your sins are forgiven? Why Jesus did not say “I will ask the Father if your sin is forgiven or not”?
Does a man can say you are saved? Is it logical to say that a Saviour should be a man to save our soul and can bring us to eternity?
Well, Jesus was the messiah. He speaks to God. He is the word of God. He will speak for God. Why cant he say it?
And just think of the logical fallacy, you quote "I will ask the father if your sin is forgiven or not" as Jesus said it, while Jesus himself is the God. Of course Jesus will ask God, and God would tell him. Jesus is Gods representative, his Christ.
Where does Jesus say what you say "Saviour should be a man to save our soul and can bring us to eternity"??
Errm. I think anyone here can differentiate Moses and Jesus.
And my example was not of Moses, it was Moses's father in law. Moses worships him. Thats how you pay respect. Fell down and worshipped him. That does not make him God.
And you are saying Moses is merely an instrument, while is called Elohim by YHWH himself. Jesus became a saviour and God only after his death, once a third person called Saul started his ministry.
ALright then, quote me a prophecy if you dont mind.
The statement is a very bold statement that Jesus is the Son of God. I’m just proving it to you.
Verifying the truth about Jesus divinity/deity does not need all should come from Jesus Christ. There are witnesses, testimonies, prophecies, and revelations about Christ Jesus. If you will notice in the narratives, Jesus rebukes, and correct if there are lies or untruth words that refers to Him. In my example of these two occasions, Jesus did not corrected them instead He uttered the word “Blessed” He acknowledged their statements.
Thanks
Brother, I really appreciate your personality, your honesty and your absolute respectful patience. I only discuss with you because discussion helps me in academic work and I dont see any other topic more important than the topic of salvation.
Anyway, on your last point, the new testament does not have any eye witnesses. There are only revelations. Only paul would have been alive during the ministry of Jesus but yet, he never met Jesus. No one knows who wrote Hebrews. No one. No one is clear as to how many authored the Revelations. No one knows who authored the synoptic gospels. In bible study it is common knowledge that Mark was the first Gospel and other had sources, Q, L and M to write their books. John is completely out of the picture. A completely different theology.
There are no eye witnesses brother.
And sincerely, thank you very much. We can disagree, but still embrace the person, not the theology.
Respect
Peace.
moorea944
Well-Known Member
Hi Moorea,
How can a man become a Saviour of our soul?
Phil.2:6-8
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
There are two form here as stated in Philippians. If Jesus is only a man and not God—as in the form of a servant (human), why it should be mentioned that He took upon him the form of a servant??
Then, why it should be mentioned here that He did not demand or regard equality with God if Jesus is not God?? What make Him to be equal in the first place?
Now, if we are studying the text without bias, there is the form of a servant (human), and there is a form of God (divine).
If you believed that He is a man (form of a servant), why not for the form of God?? Where is the consistency of understanding the Scripture if we did not consider its context.
When you say Jesus is the Son of God, that would mean there is a person of Jesus Christ. Now, when you say God was in Christ, do you mean that God was inside Christ? one person or another person?
Thanks
Jesus was never equal with his Father. Ever....
Yes, Jesus is a person, a man. He was born of a woman like everyone else. Jesus had to inherit a sin nature to overcome it or to conquer it. That is why God wanted a son. He had to be like us. Bible even says it, but people unfortunately make him God and not who he really is. Dont people read the bible when it says that God was working through His son? God "glorified" His son too. If Jesus was God or a God, he wouldnt have to be glorified.
God was in Christ as we are in Christ and Christ is in us. God's spirit is in us too. When we are baptized, we are now "in Christ".
John 17 "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."
We need to be on the same page with one another. Spiritually minded is so important. We need to be one with Christ and our Creator. That is why Jesus said that he and his father are one. Jesus was NOT saying that he is God!!!
Also, notice the language here by Jesus. He gives glory to his Father in all things. Does this really sound like two co-equal Gods to you? I hope not......