Is Jesus God?

[moorea944]

OMG brother, when it says let "us", that is not plural of numbers, its pluralis majestatis, plural of respect.
Elohim is the same. It can never be rendered as "Mighty Ones" as in God and angels. Elohim literally means "Power's". But thats one person, its grammatically singular.

This is the language. Try to understand the language, not from the English point of view, but from the personality of the language. Do you even search it on the internet brother?

I just searched and copied a link, though it is very basic. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Pluralis+majestatis

I really cant believe it.

(Rendered "God"). Plural from of Eloah. Deity in multitudinous manifestation. The word, though plural, is often used with a singular verb, indicating that though the Elohim may constitute a multitude, one Eternal Spirit motivates them all, thus revealing Deity in manifestation - e.g Psalm 95v7: "He (Yahweh) is our Elohim (MIghty Ones)". The angels were the "ministers of Yahweh" excelling in His strength (Ps 103v20-22). "For Yahweh is a great El and a great King above all Elohim" (Ps. 95v3). "Elohim" comes from a word ALAH to swear to bind oneself by an oath, so that though a multitude that no one can number, the Elohim act as a single unit; they are united together and with Yahweh, with ties that are indivisible. The word is translated "angels" in Ps. 8v5, and "judges" in Exod. 21v6, 22v8-9, 28, because the latter revealed Yahweh's law and judgement to the nation.

 

[Oeste]

Also, how do you explain John 1:14?

"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."​

Or Isaiah 9:6:

"For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."​

​

Explaining these two verses is quite easy. Most trinitarians make the word "Word" Jesus and nothing else, because in scripture it tells us that Jesus IS the word. But... in this verse it is much more. When you look it up in Greek, it is "logos". Logos means someone's plans, thoughts or reasons. And yes, Jesus is part of that. In the beginning was the logos or God's plans. And then (verse 14) His plans became flesh. Very simple language. It is NOT saying that Jesus is God. Or he pre-existed.

So it’s telling us Jesus is God’s “plans, thoughts our reasons”, and that these “plans, thoughts or reasons” died for us on the cross, whereupon these same “plans, thoughts or reasons” were resurrected 3 days later? How would “plans, thoughts or reasons” atone for our sins? Did God just think them away, or is there an inherent claim in your assertion that there is no atonement?

Might God.... bad translation? In Hebrew it is the power of God. The mighty El. And yes, Jesus is the power of God.

Okay, so Jesus is the "power of God". How is he the “Eternal Father” is you claim he was created? How can something created be “Eternal”? If a manifestation is created, it can’t be eternal, since by definition something eternal has no beginning.

But that does not make him his father or Creator.

Trinitarians do not believe Jesus is the Father but yes, he is our Creator.

I know that the trinitarians love certain verses, but when you look at it more closely, it proves differently....

Trinitarians love all scriptural verses, not just certain verses. It shows how the bible harmonizes.

I think the difference is that Trinitarians are able to resolve Christ’s deity without advocating Christians dump huge swaths of scripture into a garbage can as some have suggested in their posts.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Inaccurate.

Islam did not worship Jesus after 325 C.E. but Jehovah Witnesses worshiped Jesus since their inception in the late 1800’s. In fact, they worshiped Jesus right up until 1954 when they changed their minds. Jesus worship was even included in the Watchtower charter:

View attachment 12396​

I do not understand what you mean by calling Constantine a murderer. Are you drawing parallels to Moses bringing the tablets, and Constantine somehow bringing the Trinity??? Remember, Moses murdered the Egyptian even though the Egyptian, who was beating a Jew at the time, made no advance on him, whereas I think it’s pretty clear from the historical texts that Maximian hanged himself after leading an unsuccessful revolt against Constantine. Also, the Trinity doctrine was not invented at the Council of Nicea; rather it affirmed who Christ is.



What makes you think they weren't?



Strawman. No one here suggested that being called a servant of God equates you with being God.



Christians are free to worship God anywhere, they simply worship in Spirit and truth (John 4:20-24)



So the proper way for Christians to worship God changed in 1954? Given your current belief, does this mean Jehovah Witnesses worshiped a man for most of its history?

The fact of the matter is that the Watchtower has argued far longer for the worship of Jesus than against it, and any future change on who gets worshiped in your organization is just a “new light” publication away.

If you don’t believe this, look at your history. It wasn't until 1999 that Jesus worship was removed from your charter.

You marvel at how Trinitarians can worship Jesus yet your own Organization did the same. This was no accident, no slip up or mis-wording of your charter. Their were myriads of Watchtower articles that dealt explicitly with the deity of Christ, stating worship was right and proper.

You did an about face in 1954 with a single Watchtower issue, and if the Watchtower ever comes back to its original stance you will do an about face once again.

"Inaccurate.
Islam did not worship Jesus after 325 C.E..."

Did you not understand what I meant, or are you trying to twist my words? Seeing how you later mentioned Nicea in your reply, you got it; you just want to misconstrue my words. But they're clear enough, for anyone reading them.

You also did so here:

"No one here suggested that being called a servant of God equates you with being God."

Me, neither!
But you're saying that Jesus, whom the first-century Christians called "God's Servant", was God Himself!

You mention "myriads" of WT articles teaching Jesus was God.....by all means, provide the proof, with dates and titles.

We believed many wrong things and celebrated holidays, replete with all the festivities, at one time....but we cleaned it up.

In contrast, most of Christendom is still involving itself in the world's wars, showing itself a friend and supporter of it! --James 4:4; compare 2 Timothy 3:5; John 13:34-35; Matthew 5:44; 1 John 3:10-15.

 

[Notaclue]

I understand what you say. But there is no reference to say God created the spirit on the first day. Or in the beginning. It only says that the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. In that case, the spirit was already there (If you wanna separate the spirit from the God, or pneuma in the septuagint).



My question was "When you say spirit in the beginning, was it the Holy spirit (As in the second per

I understand what you say. But there is no reference to say God created the spirit on the first day. Or in the beginning. It only says that the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. In that case, the spirit was already there (If you wanna separate the spirit from the God, or pneuma in the septuagint).



My question was "When you say spirit in the beginning, was it the Holy spirit (As in the second person in the trinity)".

Not pertaining to the question, let me say this, Ecclesia does not mean church. It means a gathering or council. Church was derived from Kuriokos or belonging to the Lord. In this century it is a widely known fact that Ecclesia was translated wrongly as church. Ecclesia was there before the Gospels, while the church was born definitely after it, I hope thats logical.

But that is irrelevant I agree. Just stating since you quoted the verse.

• Again, do you mean to say it was another spirit. The spirit of God. Not the holy spirit in the trinity?
• And what do you believe are the seven spirits?

Gen.1:1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.


Where does it say God 'didn't' create the Spirit of God ?


I will try and answer your other questions by explaining how Christianity 'began'.



Gal.3:16. Now to Abraham and his seed were the 'promises' made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

As of 'One.' Body of Christ.


Gen.17:1. And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
2And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. 7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and 'thy seed ' after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a 'God' unto thee, 'and' to 'thy seed' after thee. 8And I will give unto thee, and to 'thy seed' after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; 'and I will be their God.'

'and I will be their God.'


Rom.9:8. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise(Spirit) are counted for the seed.


Gal.4:26. But Jerusalem(Spirit) which is 'above' is free, which is the mother of us all.


Acts 2:32. This Jesus, hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having 'received' of the Father the "promise" of the 'Holy Spirit' , he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath 'made' that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, "both Lord and Christ."
37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the 'gift' of the "Holy Spirit." 39For the "promise" is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.


God hath 'made' that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, "both Lord and Christ."


Jer.3:16. And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more. 17 "At that time" they shall call 'Jerusalem' the 'throne of the LORD'; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the 'name of the LORD' , "to Jerusalem": neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.


"God hath 'made' that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, "both Lord and Christ."


Gal.4:4. But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6Because you are sons, God has sent forth the "Spirit of His Son" into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 7Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.

6Because you are sons, God has sent forth the "Spirit of His Son" into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”


Eph.4:4. There is "one body" and "one Spirit," just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;
5. "one Lord", one faith, one baptism,
6. "one God" and "Father" of all who is over all and through all and in all.


If there is something you don't understand, ask and I will try and answer?


Peace.

 

[firedragon]

(Rendered "God"). Plural from of Eloah. Deity in multitudinous manifestation. The word, though plural, is often used with a singular verb, indicating that though the Elohim may constitute a multitude, one Eternal Spirit motivates them all, thus revealing Deity in manifestation - e.g Psalm 95v7: "He (Yahweh) is our Elohim (MIghty Ones)". The angels were the "ministers of Yahweh" excelling in His strength (Ps 103v20-22). "For Yahweh is a great El and a great King above all Elohim" (Ps. 95v3). "Elohim" comes from a word ALAH to swear to bind oneself by an oath, so that though a multitude that no one can number, the Elohim act as a single unit; they are united together and with Yahweh, with ties that are indivisible. The word is translated "angels" in Ps. 8v5, and "judges" in Exod. 21v6, 22v8-9, 28, because the latter revealed Yahweh's law and judgement to the nation.

From a scriptural point of view, this is one of the most nonsensical exegisis I have ever heard.

 

[firedragon]

Gen.1:1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.


Where does it say God 'didn't' create the Spirit of God ?


I will try and answer your other questions by explaining how Christianity 'began'.



Gal.3:16. Now to Abraham and his seed were the 'promises' made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

As of 'One.' Body of Christ.


Gen.17:1. And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
2And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. 7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and 'thy seed ' after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a 'God' unto thee, 'and' to 'thy seed' after thee. 8And I will give unto thee, and to 'thy seed' after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; 'and I will be their God.'

'and I will be their God.'


Rom.9:8. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise(Spirit) are counted for the seed.


Gal.4:26. But Jerusalem(Spirit) which is 'above' is free, which is the mother of us all.


Acts 2:32. This Jesus, hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having 'received' of the Father the "promise" of the 'Holy Spirit' , he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath 'made' that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, "both Lord and Christ."
37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the 'gift' of the "Holy Spirit." 39For the "promise" is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.


God hath 'made' that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, "both Lord and Christ."


Jer.3:16. And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more. 17 "At that time" they shall call 'Jerusalem' the 'throne of the LORD'; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the 'name of the LORD' , "to Jerusalem": neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.


"God hath 'made' that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, "both Lord and Christ."


Gal.4:4. But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6Because you are sons, God has sent forth the "Spirit of His Son" into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 7Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.

6Because you are sons, God has sent forth the "Spirit of His Son" into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”


Eph.4:4. There is "one body" and "one Spirit," just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;
5. "one Lord", one faith, one baptism,
6. "one God" and "Father" of all who is over all and through all and in all.


If there is something you don't understand, ask and I will try and answer?


Peace.

My question was very simple. When you say God created the spirit, is that the holy spirit (a person in the trinity)?

 

[Yoshua]

Moses did the same to his father in law, worship. Does that make him God?

Hi firedragon,

No, because his Father in-law is not God.
Exo. 18:7
7. Then Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, and he bowed down and kissed him; and they asked each other of their welfare, and went into the tent.

Other version used the term obeisance, and as you said worship. As I checked with the other translation, the Douay-Rheims Bible used the term worship.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And he went out to meet his kinsman, and worshipped and kissed him: and they saluted one another with words of peace. And when he was come into the tent,

Majority of the translation used bow and obeisance. Ok, for the sake of giving the consideration of the term worship for this scripture, let us check the Hebrew word for this term.

shachah: to bow down
Original Word: שָׁחָה
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: shachah
Phonetic Spelling: (shaw-khaw')
Short Definition: worship
Biblehub.com

No, may I ask you if a man should be worshiped? (just like worshiping God)?

And do you also agree then that Ephraim is Jesus's older brother. And in this case, it is not John or Mark saying he is the son, it is God himself.

Matt. 16:16-17
16. And Simon Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17. And Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Based on this Scripture, did Jesus correct Simon Peter? Did Jesus tell Simon Peter “No, I’m not the Son of the living God”?

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

No, not at all. The "word" is not theos, it is logos. I really dont know why your putting theos with logos. completely different!!
The first few verses is about God, then in 14 it is about Jesus.

Hi Moorea,

Yes, I know the Word is logos. What I mean is this:
John 1:1
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
In the beginning was the Reason, and the Reason was with God, and the Reason was God.

Again, not at all. "He" is the wrong or bad translation. It is not in most bibles, I think it is in ESV. But that is wrong. The angels were the only ones with God in the beginning, not Jesus. He was not born yet. IF, Jesus did pre-exist, he would have just come down from heaven as he is, and not have to role play this father and son thing. It's almost degrading to him if that really did happen. Someone who is co-equal with someone else and now he's a son? Doesnt make sense.

Let us make man in our image and likeness.... Is God and the angels, not God and Jesus.

Then please give your favored translation or text so I may see it.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

That's what the Jew's thought and Paul told them that they were wrong in the next verse that you didnt put in....
"But made himself of no reputation," Paul told them that he didn't do that!! He was just a humble servant of God his Father. He was just like them in everyway. Esp, nature. Jesus could have sinned if he wanted to, but he chose not to. He was like us. There were two wills, Jesus's and God's. Jesus chose to do his Father's will.

Let us use the KJV version to get nearer:

6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Who made himself of no reputation? Who made not to be equal with God? Who??

Do you know what you are saying when you said “Jesus could have sinned if He wanted to”? There is no such thing as Jesus will have a choice, that is illogical. How can Jesus, a Saviour, a God sent, the one who forgive sins—becomes a sinner?

God sent Jesus Christ with no sin. God already planned the coming of Jesus, this was even prophesied in the book of Isaiah.

Emptied himself. What does that mean for you? What was he making himself empty of ?

That means made Himself of no reputation. He came here on earth as man in the flesh to live with us. He is God who is in the form (person) of man. He added humanity in His Deity.
[/QUOTE]

Very simple. Being a servant, humbling himself. Showing us how to be. But I think you look at that and Jesus is "changing" into something else, like a servant, from a God. Look at other verses in scripture that define our Lord. He showed us how to be. We make ourselves separate from the world and be like him.

No. It is not changing but adding humanity of His Deity as God.

God himself existed in a form of God doesnt really make sense. He IS God. Our creator. He manifests Himself in people too. Esp, His son. All through scripture, it tells us that God worked through His son

5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

It is clearly said that the “who” here is referring to Christ. The term “form” is morphe.

morphé: form, shape
Original Word: μορφή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: morphé
Phonetic Spelling: (mor-fay')
Short Definition: form, shape, outward appearance
Definition: form, shape, outward appearance.

How can Jesus can’t be God if the Scripture clearly emphasized “morphe” as form. If you will notice, there is the form of God and there is the form of a servant (man).

7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
If you believed that Jesus is a man as the Scripture says in the form of a servant, why not for the form of God. That would come out that there is a bias of understanding in the context and inconsistency.

Also, look at verse 11 "And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Everything is to the glory of the father..... not Jesus.

Yes, I agree with you. No problem with that. Everything that Jesus did in His ministry is for the glory of the Father (God). What you did not see is their unity between the Father and Jesus Christ. Jesus said they are one with the Father. Isn’t it? What the Father does, He (Jesus) also does. This only shows that God came here in the person of Jesus Christ that is in flesh, not only in flesh yet He is also divine. He is Emmanuel, God with us.

Nothing in those verses tell us that Jesus is actually God. Jesus is in the form of God as in mind and spirit. Jesus manifested God's charator perfectly! God was in his son reconsciling the world until his self. God spirit is also in us too. We also try to be like our God, but we fail.

Do you mean that God (Father) was the same person as Jesus Christ? or do you mean that God is Jesus Christ?

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

Hello, Yoshua. Hope you are doing well.

There are several questions that I asked....feel free to pick one. Here they are again:
"First, Jesus is "with God," then he is God, but then, "no man has seen God at any time".....what?! Plus, if he is God, who was he praying to, and why? Why would he say, "Let not my will, but yours, be done."? Why did he cry out, "My God, why have You forsaken me?"? If he is God, why would he have a God?"

Hi hockeycowboy,
1.) "First, Jesus is "with God," then he is God, but then, "no man has seen God at any time"by hockeycowboy

Can you please show me your supporting Scripture for this first, hockeycowboy before I answer?

Really, though, you cannot answer these, in justification of the Trinity, without convoluting the context!
Many encyclopedias themselves define the doctrine as "a mystery," including the Catholic Encyclopedia. You can't explain a mystery, if encyclopedia's can't. (Speaking of Catholic -- in calling yourself "evangelical," I take it you are not Catholic, right? Why would you want to promote a belief that began to take shape with their leaders at Nicea, in 325 C.E.? The leaders of Catholicism have proven themselves most ungodly! They have too much blood on their hands! They have, as Paul said in 2 Timothy 3:5, "a form of Godliness, put prove false to the power thereof." -- compare 1 John 3:10-15; Matthew 7:20-23)

Justification of the Trinity? Let us try it slowly but surely. Please don’t conclude yet. That is the Roman Catholic is saying regarding mystery. I’m evangelical and not RC.

About Nicea? It is not about Nicea, it is what the scripture is saying. Let us rewind backward much earlier (first), and those are the narrative gospels and Paul’s letters. The Bible interprets itself and God truly exists in three persons.

It's something to consider, my friend.

In Exodus 20:1-6, the God of the Israelites (Yahweh, the God of the Bible, the God of Jesus [John 20:17]) tells us that He is jealous, to not worship "any other gods" before Him. By worshipping the Trinity (including Jesus and the Holy Spirit), you are not giving Yahweh, Jesus' Father (Jehovah, in English), exclusive worship; you're 'spreading it around.'

At John 4:23-24, Jesus said that "true worshippers will worship the Father." Since that's what He did, and Peter tells us to "follow" Him closely (1 Peter 2:21), that's what I will do.

Oh, don't get me wrong, Jesus is my Savior; God sent him and made him that. So I bow down to him, and honor him as my Lord. But my worship goes to the One who made him such......His Father, Jehovah God (John 17:3; Psalms 83:18)

Yes, that is good to hear that you confessed Jesus is your Saviour.

Thanks

 

[firedragon]

Hi firedragon,

No, because his Father in-law is not God.
Exo. 18:7
7. Then Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, and he bowed down and kissed him; and they asked each other of their welfare, and went into the tent.

Other version used the term obeisance, and as you said worship. As I checked with the other translation, the Douay-Rheims Bible used the term worship.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And he went out to meet his kinsman, and worshipped and kissed him: and they saluted one another with words of peace. And when he was come into the tent,

Majority of the translation used bow and obeisance. Ok, for the sake of giving the consideration of the term worship for this scripture, let us check the Hebrew word for this term.

shachah: to bow down
Original Word: שָׁחָה
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: shachah
Phonetic Spelling: (shaw-khaw')
Short Definition: worship
Biblehub.com

No, may I ask you if a man should be worshiped? (just like worshiping God)?

Matt. 16:16-17
16. And Simon Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17. And Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Based on this Scripture, did Jesus correct Simon Peter? Did Jesus tell Simon Peter “No, I’m not the Son of the living God”?

Thanks

1. The point is bro, if someone worshipping Jesus (As I said its proskynesis in Koine Greek), then everyone who was ever worshipped (Or paid obeisance) would be God. So, the Magi or anyone for that matter bowing down and paying respect to Jesus (Proskynesis) does not make Jesus God. This is a normal argument a lot of people use to portray Jesus as God.

2. Since the New Testament is in Greek, when you analyse the old testament, its easier to equate an act referring the septuagint. In the case of Moses paying respect to his father in law it is Proskenysis. The same as the NT. Of course, both are not God.

3. A man is not worshipped like God. But some people do. There are many men worshipped as God. All over the world. But that does not make them God. Also, the "Worship" in the bible when referred to men is not "Worship" like worshipping God. Its paying respect. I explained that in an earlier post.

4. Jesus did not say that he is not the son of the living God. Son does not mean a physical son. Thats why I said that then Ephraim and Israel must be older sons of God and older brothers of Jesus, thats an example to show that none of them are physical sons. In fact, anyone who follows Gods will are children of God.

 

[Notaclue]

My question was very simple. When you say God created the spirit, is that the holy spirit (a person in the trinity)?

God created the Son of God, he also created the Holy Spirit. Man created the Trinity.

Peace.

 

[firedragon]

God created the Son of God, he also created the Holy Spirit. Man created the Trinity.

Peace.

Brother, this must be the most repeated question I have asked ever.

You said that God created the spirit in the beginning. Is that the Holy Spirit? I did not ask if he created the Son of God.

If you are saying that there is nothing called the Trinity thats alright.

 

[james2ko]

Okay, so Jesus is the "power of God". How is he the “Eternal Father” is you claim he was created? How can something created be “Eternal”? If a manifestation is created, it can’t be eternal, since by definition something eternal has no beginning.

Really? Who's definition determines something eternal has no beginning? We were created (had a beginning) and will be made eternal.

 

[moorea944]

​

So it’s telling us Jesus is God’s “plans, thoughts our reasons”, and that these “plans, thoughts or reasons” died for us on the cross, whereupon these same “plans, thoughts or reasons” were resurrected 3 days later? How would “plans, thoughts or reasons” atone for our sins? Did God just think them away, or is there an inherent claim in your assertion that there is no atonement?


Okay, so Jesus is the "power of God". How is he the “Eternal Father” is you claim he was created? How can something created be “Eternal”? If a manifestation is created, it can’t be eternal, since by definition something eternal has no beginning.



Trinitarians do not believe Jesus is the Father but yes, he is our Creator.




Trinitarians love all scriptural verses, not just certain verses. It shows how the bible harmonizes.

I think the difference is that Trinitarians are able to resolve Christ’s deity without advocating Christians dump huge swaths of scripture into a garbage can as some have suggested in their posts.

So it’s telling us Jesus is God’s “plans, thoughts our reasons”, and that these “plans, thoughts or reasons” died for us on the cross, whereupon these same “plans, thoughts or reasons” were resurrected 3 days later? How would “plans, thoughts or reasons” atone for our sins? Did God just think them away, or is there an inherent claim in your assertion that there is no atonement?

I dont think your listening. Plus, doesnt it say in the bible that Jesus was foreordained from the beginning of the world? That means, that he was in God's plans and ideas before He created everything. God's plans (logos) became real and flesh in verse 14 and dwelt amoung us. Just like the bible says.... I really dont understand what the problem is....

Trinitarians do not believe Jesus is the Father but yes, he is our Creator.

Your kidding me right? The father IS the creator..... wow

 

[moorea944]

Hi Moorea,

Yes, I know the Word is logos. What I mean is this:
John 1:1
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
In the beginning was the Reason, and the Reason was with God, and the Reason was God.


Then please give your favored translation or text so I may see it.

Thanks

I like this one.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 

[Oeste]

"Inaccurate.
Islam did not worship Jesus after 325 C.E..."

Did you not understand what I meant, or are you trying to twist my words?

Only you can say what you actually meant, I can only go by your words because I cannot read your mind.
This does not mean I am “twisting” anything. I’m not trying to twist your words; I’m actually trying to understand them.

Seeing how you later mentioned Nicea in your reply, you got it; you just want to misconstrue my words. But they're clear enough, for anyone reading them.

I think Nicea was hard to miss since it was you who bought up 325 C.E.

As to misconstruing your words:

You stated your organization agreed with Islam in not worshiping Jesus since 325 C.E. I merely pointed out your Organization wasn’t around since 325 C.E. and when it finally did come around in the late 1800’s Jesus was included in their worship just like other Christian churches. You also wanted to imply that the worship of Jesus began with the Council of Nicea which is incorrect. This is what was clear to me after reading your post.

If what I read was misconstrued, tell me how it was misconstrued and how it should be properly read. Simply telling me it was misconstrued doesn’t help, and I don’t want to spend time discussing points you never meant to convey. We’re both too busy for that.

You also did so here:

"No one here suggested that being called a servant of God equates you with being God."

Me, neither!

Then we are both agreed, since “No one…” would include you and me.

But you're saying that Jesus, whom the first-century Christians called "God's Servant", was God Himself!

Exactly!!!

You mention "myriads" of WT articles teaching Jesus was God.....by all means, provide the proof, with dates and titles.

We believed many wrong things and celebrated holidays, replete with all the festivities, at one time....but we cleaned it up.

Why? I’ve already posted a portion of your charter, and I don’t know of too many organizations that argue against their own charter. That is ample proof enough. Besides, if I post Watchtower articles you will just say “We don’t believe that particular truth anymore”, so of what benefit is it than to give me something more to do? I’m very busy as it is now. However, I take issue with the statement “we cleaned it up”. That would require an apology and repentance, and I’ve never known your Organization to apologize for anything.

In contrast, most of Christendom is still involving itself in the world's wars, showing itself a friend and supporter of it! --James 4:4; compare 2 Timothy 3:5; John 13:34-35; Matthew 5:44; 1 John 3:10-15.

I would be more than happy to discuss “Christendom” and the world’s wars with you, but that would be getting a bit off thread theme. Perhaps on another thread.

 

[Oeste]

Really? Who's definition determines something eternal has no beginning? .

My dictionary defines eternal as:"lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning." I believe this was the original meaning and usage of the word.

Currently it can also mean to be consistently annoying, as "her eternal yapping".

We were created (had a beginning) and will be made eternal

I think the more correct word for this state is "everlasting".

 

[james2ko]

My dictionary defines eternal as:"lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning." I believe this was the original meaning and usage of the word. I think the more correct word for this state is "everlasting".

Those much smarter than you and I, who translate the original languages, indicate the two terms are synonymous:

Mat 19:16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?" NKJV

Joh 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." NKJV​

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I like this one.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

I like that too.
1 In the beginning was the Word ( the Word was Not ' before ' the beginning ). The same Greek grammar rules applies at John1:1 and at Acts of the Apostles 28:6 B
...KJV added the 'a' at Acts 28:6 B, and omitted the ' a' at John 1
2 The same was in the beginning with God. With denotes being with another. Jesus was in the beginning according to Revelation 1:5; Revelation 3:14 B Not 'before' the beginning.
... Only God was ' before ' the beginning according to Psalms 90:2, so Jesus was Not 'before' the beginning as God was ' before ' the beginning.
3 Yes, through Jesus all things were made - Colossians 1:15 - because Jesus was firstborn of every creature, or firstborn of all creation. - Revelation 3:14 B; 1 Corinthians 8:6