Thanks again, Pegg; another interesting and informative resoponse. Again, I will try not to yeild to the temptation of debating; just want to be clearer on some of the point you raised:
Just to be clear - you said the Jesus is God's only begotten son in a different way to Adam. Does that means that Adam is also God's begotten son?
no, for the reason that Adam was created 'through Jesus'
There is only one person who can claim to be directly created by Jehovah himself and that is Jesus Christ...the firstborn of all creation. Thereafter, Gods creations came into existence though Jesus...that includes Adam.
The insertion of the word "other" changes the meaning completely but that's another discussion - thanks for this scripture. So my understanding of this scripture and the NWT's understanding differ.
well even if we take out the 'other' from the verse, it still reads the same,
16 because by means of him all things were created in the heavens and upon the earth
No matter which way you look at this verse, it is saying that all things came into existence by means of Jesus.
What is your view of this verse?
actually no: As I understand it, there is no english word for the greek word monogenes and the closest definition is "unique", and it is actually a compound word that probably means "only" and "to cause to be." If i understand you, Jesus was unique in many ways but Adam was also unique in many ways too. So, in my estimatoin, John seemingly erred when he said that Jesus was God's "only begotten [unique] Son."
I would say I agree with you that Adam was most certainly a unique creation. He was the only physical being created 'in Gods image' as genesis says. So out of all the fleshly creatures that were created, Adam was unique. But, unlike Jesus, God did not personally create Adam.
According to Paul, Jesus was the one through whom all things came into existence. ...that would have to include the creation of Adam.
lexicographers define monogenes as the
single of its kind, only, or
the only member of a kin or kind. (Thayers Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, 1889, p. 417; Liddell and Scotts Greek-English Lexicon, Oxford, 1968, p. 1144) This can rightly be applied to Jesus because God created him directly....but God did not directly create Adam. So when John says that Jesus is the only begotten of God, he means that Jesus alone is the one being created by God. No other creature has been directly created by God, only Jesus.
Can be debated; it is clear that the concept of reincarnation was ripe in Jesus's time . . but this is not a debate section as i understand it.:sorry1:
true, if you want a discussion on it, i'd be happy to discuss it with you though.
The bible refers to Jesus as the "second Adam;" one that is a living spirit. So, again, Is this suggesting that Jesus is the "spiritual Adam?"
he cannot be the literal first man Adam who died and returned to dust. Jesus existed in heaven as a spirit long before the creation of Adam...so no, Jesus is not the spiritual Adam. The scriptures say that when mankind die, they return to dust and cease to exist...they perish completely.
But spiritually speaking, Jesus replaces the first man Adam as our human father. Jesus has become a spiritual father for mankind...that may be why the term 'second Adam' is used to describe Jesus role as the Messiah.
Matthew??
Oh boy - its clear that the writer of Matthew erred here. Not debating, but as i said, Isaiah 7:14 has nothing to do with Jesus and its a bit odd why christians in today's civilized world would still think it does.
Would love to debate you on this point, though
what was written down in the first century were the core beliefs and teachings of Jesus followers. I believe that what Matthew wrote was under inspiration of holy spirit... the application to Jesus, of hebrew scripture prophecies, can be found throughout the greek scriptures. So its not unusual for these prophecies to be applied to Jesus...thats what Christianity is about.
So I am getting a better understanding of JW's belief regarding Adam and Jesus; I will get some more JW views and see if they all coincide. The reasons given for the belief is a bit fuzzy, though. Thanks a lot!
Your welcome. :bow: