Is Jesus Adam?

[Big_TJ]

I would like JW's view on this question. I have seen where JWs believe that Jesus is the archangel Michael based on several scriptures including 1 Thess 4:16 (....with archangel's voice )

So, with the same analysis, does JW believe that Jesus is Adam? These scriptures woud suggest that he is:

John 3:16 (Jesus referred to as God's "Only Begotten Son") and
Luke 3:38 (... the Son of Adam, the Son of God)

Here, we have one scripture saying that Jesus is God's only begotten son, and another scripture saying that Adam is God's Son (and the context of the last scripture - being one to show lineage - would support an ascertion that Adam is God's Begotten Son)

So, is Jesus and Adam are the same? If not, why?

Thanks in advance

 

[Pegg]

I would like JW's view on this question. I have seen where JWs believe that Jesus is the archangel Michael based on several scriptures including 1 Thess 4:16 (....with archangel's voice )

So, with the same analysis, does JW believe that Jesus is Adam? These scriptures woud suggest that he is:

John 3:16 (Jesus referred to as God's "Only Begotten Son") and
Luke 3:38 (... the Son of Adam, the Son of God)

Here, we have one scripture saying that Jesus is God's only begotten son, and another scripture saying that Adam is God's Son (and the context of the last scripture - being one to show lineage - would support an ascertion that Adam is God's Begotten Son)

So, is Jesus and Adam are the same? If not, why?

Thanks in advance

Hi,
The quick answer is no, Jesus is not Adam.

When Adam was created, it was to Jesus whom God said "let us make man in our image" ... so from our pov, Jesus is certainly not Adam.

However, Jesus role has become like that first man Adam. Adam had the privilege of being the father of a perfect human race...in his perfect condition, he would bring perfect offspring into the Garden of Eden (a holy place) and they would in turn be sons of God just as Adam was. He failed in doing that, so Jesus is stepping in to accomplish that task.

Jesus as the promised “Prince of Peace,” is also called an “Everlasting Father.”
His human birth was foretold this way: “The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son.” (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:20-23) Jesus did not have a human father, nor did Adam. Luke traces Jesus lineage back to the beginning of human history where we learn that Adam came into existence as a “son of God.” (Luke 3:38)
But when Adam lost that relationship as God’s son, we also lost it because his offspring were born after he fell away from God...so they were born into that condition of being alienated from God. So we all need, as it were, a new father who is perfect like Adam was...only a perfect creation can be called 'Gods Son'

So to remedy the situation, God sent his own heavenly Son to be Adams replacement. This is what makes everlasting life by Christ possible. The Bible says: “‘The first man Adam became a living soul.’ The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. The first man is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man is out of heaven.” (1 Corinthians 15:45, 47) Jesus, “the last Adam,” is like “the first man Adam” in that He was a perfect man, and his offspring would in turn be perfect and thus be Gods sons.

By putting our faith in Jesus, as the means God has provided to bring us back into the right condition to be called sons, we in effect are accepting him as our father and for that reason, God accepts us as his own children.

 

[Big_TJ]

Hi,
The quick answer is no, Jesus is not Adam.

When Adam was created, it was to Jesus whom God said "let us make man in our image" ... so from our pov, Jesus is certainly not Adam.

However, Jesus role has become like that first man Adam. Adam had the privilege of being the father of a perfect human race...in his perfect condition, he would bring perfect offspring into the Garden of Eden (a holy place) and they would in turn be sons of God just as Adam was. He failed in doing that, so Jesus is stepping in to accomplish that task.

Jesus as the promised “Prince of Peace,” is also called an “Everlasting Father.”
His human birth was foretold this way: “The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son.” (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:20-23) Jesus did not have a human father, nor did Adam. Luke traces Jesus lineage back to the beginning of human history where we learn that Adam came into existence as a “son of God.” (Luke 3:38)
But when Adam lost that relationship as God’s son, we also lost it because his offspring were born after he fell away from God...so they were born into that condition of being alienated from God. So we all need, as it were, a new father who is perfect like Adam was...only a perfect creation can be called 'Gods Son'

So to remedy the situation, God sent his own heavenly Son to be Adams replacement. This is what makes everlasting life by Christ possible. The Bible says: “‘The first man Adam became a living soul.’ The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. The first man is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man is out of heaven.” (1 Corinthians 15:45, 47) Jesus, “the last Adam,” is like “the first man Adam” in that He was a perfect man, and his offspring would in turn be perfect and thus be Gods sons.

By putting our faith in Jesus, as the means God has provided to bring us back into the right condition to be called sons, we in effect are accepting him as our father and for that reason, God accepts us as his own children.

Thanks Pegg for your comprehensive response. Since this is not a debating area, i will simply ask follow up questions based on your response.

So, did the writer of John err when he/she referred to Jesus as God's "only begotten son" or did the writer of Luke err when he referred to Adam a literal the "Son of God"?

Also Corinthians 15:45,47 seem to have an interesting twist - is it not suggesting that Jesus is, at the very least, a "Spiritual Adam?" If that is so, is there any biblical reference which would suggest that Jesus was not - for want of a better term - the re-incarnated Adam?

By the way, I am pretty sure you know (or should know) that Isaiah 7:14 has absolutely NOTHING to do with Jesus.

Thanks!

 

[Pegg]

Thanks Pegg for your comprehensive response. Since this is not a debating area, i will simply ask follow up questions based on your response.

So, did the writer of John err when he/she referred to Jesus as God's "only begotten son" or did the writer of Luke err when he referred to Adam a literal the "Son of God"?

No, not at all.

Jesus is Gods only begotten son in a different way to Adam.
Paul explains, under inspiration by holy spirit, that Jesus was the one through whom God brought all other creations into existence.
Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning

Here Paul is saying that all things that have come into existence were created through Jesus...the firstborn of all. The very first production of God was his firstborn son...a spirit like himself made in his own image. This son is the one who became the 'master worker' as Proverbs 8 describes. So Jesus created all things under Gods direction and supervision and using Gods power to do so.

This means that Jesus is the only direct creation of God. All other things, including the angels, universe and mankind, were created by Jesus. 'Only Begotten' means a single of its kind. Jesus is the only begotten of God because he alone is the only one who Jehovah created directly.
So John is correct to call Jesus an 'only begotten son'

Also Corinthians 15:45,47 seem to have an interesting twist - is it not suggesting that Jesus is, at the very least, a "Spiritual Adam?" If that is so, is there any biblical reference which would suggest that Jesus was not - for want of a better term - the re-incarnated Adam?

there is nothing in the bible to suggest that reincarnation exists. When Adam sinned, he was told that he would return to the dust from where he was taken.
Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

1Cor 15:45-47 It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 Nevertheless, the first is, not that which is spiritual, but that which is physical, afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man is out of heaven.
Notice that each are said to come from completely different realms... the first from the dust of earth, the 2nd from heaven. We already know that when Adam died, he returned to dust... but the 2nd Adam is said to come from the heavens. Only spirits exist in heaven therefore its right to conclude that Jesus, as the 2nd Adam is different to the first because he does not come from the ground as the first did.

By the way, I am pretty sure you know (or should know) that Isaiah 7:14 has absolutely NOTHING to do with Jesus.

Thanks!

(Isaiah 7:14) Therefore Jehovah himself will give YOU men a sign: Look! The maiden herself will actually become pregnant, and she is giving birth to a son, and she will certainly call his name Im·man′u·el

It was the view of Jesus apostles that this verse did in fact apply to Jesus. see Matthew 1:20 But after he had thought these things over, look! Jehovah’s angel appeared to him in a dream, saying: “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary your wife home, for that which has been begotten in her is by holy spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you must call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” 22 All this actually came about for that to be fulfilled which was spoken by Jehovah through his prophet, saying: 23 “Look! The virgin will become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and they will call his name Im·man′u·el,” which means, when translated, “With Us Is God.”

Matthew was one of Jesus chosen apostles... this was their view and its a foundation belief of Christianity.

 

[Big_TJ]

Thanks again, Pegg; another interesting and informative resoponse. Again, I will try not to yeild to the temptation of debating; just want to be clearer on some of the point you raised:

Jesus is Gods only begotten son in a different way to Adam.

Just to be clear - you said the Jesus is God's only begotten son in a different way to Adam. Does that means that Adam is also God's begotten son?

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning

The insertion of the word "other" changes the meaning completely but that's another discussion - thanks for this scripture. So my understanding of this scripture and the NWT's understanding differ.

'Only Begotten' means a single of its kind.

actually no: As I understand it, there is no english word for the greek word monogenes and the closest definition is "unique", and it is actually a compound word that probably means "only" and "to cause to be." If i understand you, Jesus was unique in many ways but Adam was also unique in many ways too. So, in my estimatoin, John seemingly erred when he said that Jesus was God's "only begotten [unique] Son."

there is nothing in the bible to suggest that reincarnation exists.

Can be debated; it is clear that the concept of reincarnation was ripe in Jesus's time . . but this is not a debate section as i understand it.:sorry1:

1Cor 15:45-47 It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 Nevertheless, the first is, not that which is spiritual, but that which is physical, afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man is out of heaven.

The bible refers to Jesus as the "second Adam;" one that is a living spirit. So, again, Is this suggesting that Jesus is the "spiritual Adam?"

It was the view of Jesus apostles that this verse did in fact apply to Jesus. see Matthew 1:20

Matthew?? Oh boy - its clear that the writer of Matthew erred here. Not debating, but as i said, Isaiah 7:14 has nothing to do with Jesus and its a bit odd why christians in today's civilized world would still think it does. Would love to debate you on this point, though

Matthew was one of Jesus chosen apostles... this was their view and its a foundation belief of Christianity.

Perhaps Matthew was a deciple but whether the writer of Matthew was a deciple is is another topic.

So I am getting a better understanding of JW's belief regarding Adam and Jesus; I will get some more JW views and see if they all coincide. The reasons given for the belief is a bit fuzzy, though. Thanks a lot!

 

[Pegg]

Thanks again, Pegg; another interesting and informative resoponse. Again, I will try not to yeild to the temptation of debating; just want to be clearer on some of the point you raised:
Just to be clear - you said the Jesus is God's only begotten son in a different way to Adam. Does that means that Adam is also God's begotten son?

no, for the reason that Adam was created 'through Jesus'

There is only one person who can claim to be directly created by Jehovah himself and that is Jesus Christ...the firstborn of all creation. Thereafter, Gods creations came into existence though Jesus...that includes Adam.

The insertion of the word "other" changes the meaning completely but that's another discussion - thanks for this scripture. So my understanding of this scripture and the NWT's understanding differ.

well even if we take out the 'other' from the verse, it still reads the same,

16 because by means of him all things were created in the heavens and upon the earth
No matter which way you look at this verse, it is saying that all things came into existence by means of Jesus.

What is your view of this verse?

actually no: As I understand it, there is no english word for the greek word monogenes and the closest definition is "unique", and it is actually a compound word that probably means "only" and "to cause to be." If i understand you, Jesus was unique in many ways but Adam was also unique in many ways too. So, in my estimatoin, John seemingly erred when he said that Jesus was God's "only begotten [unique] Son."

I would say I agree with you that Adam was most certainly a unique creation. He was the only physical being created 'in Gods image' as genesis says. So out of all the fleshly creatures that were created, Adam was unique. But, unlike Jesus, God did not personally create Adam.

According to Paul, Jesus was the one through whom all things came into existence. ...that would have to include the creation of Adam.

lexicographers define monogenes as the “single of its kind, only,” or “the only member of a kin or kind.” (Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, 1889, p. 417; Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon, Oxford, 1968, p. 1144) This can rightly be applied to Jesus because God created him directly....but God did not directly create Adam. So when John says that Jesus is the only begotten of God, he means that Jesus alone is the one being created by God. No other creature has been directly created by God, only Jesus.

Can be debated; it is clear that the concept of reincarnation was ripe in Jesus's time . . but this is not a debate section as i understand it.:sorry1:

true, if you want a discussion on it, i'd be happy to discuss it with you though.

The bible refers to Jesus as the "second Adam;" one that is a living spirit. So, again, Is this suggesting that Jesus is the "spiritual Adam?"

he cannot be the literal first man Adam who died and returned to dust. Jesus existed in heaven as a spirit long before the creation of Adam...so no, Jesus is not the spiritual Adam. The scriptures say that when mankind die, they return to dust and cease to exist...they perish completely.

But spiritually speaking, Jesus replaces the first man Adam as our human father. Jesus has become a spiritual father for mankind...that may be why the term 'second Adam' is used to describe Jesus role as the Messiah.

Matthew?? Oh boy - its clear that the writer of Matthew erred here. Not debating, but as i said, Isaiah 7:14 has nothing to do with Jesus and its a bit odd why christians in today's civilized world would still think it does. Would love to debate you on this point, though

what was written down in the first century were the core beliefs and teachings of Jesus followers. I believe that what Matthew wrote was under inspiration of holy spirit... the application to Jesus, of hebrew scripture prophecies, can be found throughout the greek scriptures. So its not unusual for these prophecies to be applied to Jesus...thats what Christianity is about.

So I am getting a better understanding of JW's belief regarding Adam and Jesus; I will get some more JW views and see if they all coincide. The reasons given for the belief is a bit fuzzy, though. Thanks a lot!

Your welcome. :bow:

 

[Big_TJ]

well even if we take out the 'other' from the verse, it still reads the same,

..... 16 because by means of him all things were created in the heavens and upon the earth . . . .

What is your view of this verse?

And this is my point. If the verse reads "by means of him all things were created" then the verse would be talking about God (Jehovah) not Jesus (unless you think Jesus and Jehovah are the same [which i know you don't]). So, that would debunk your argument that Jesus is "one of a kind because he is the only one that was created by Jehovah" since you would not have any biblical evidence that Jehovah did not create Adam directly. This scriputure would clearly be saying all things, which would include both Jesus and Adam, was created by Jehovah. So we are back to square one.

I would say I agree with you that Adam was most certainly a unique creation. He was the only physical being created 'in Gods image' as genesis says. So out of all the fleshly creatures that were created, Adam was unique. But, unlike Jesus, God did not personally create Adam.

lexicographers define monogenes as the “single of its kind, only,” or “the only member of a kin or kind.” (Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, 1889, p. 417; Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon, Oxford, 1968, p. 1144) [emphasis mine]

First you should always quote your source so you are not accused of plaigiarism (you should know this); the portion I highlighted is unlikely to be your own words and thoughts. (we'll just let that one slide though)

So Adam would also be "a single of its kind," "the only member of a kin or kind" "unique" as well. While I understand that Jesus would be ""one of a kind" for a reason, Adam would also be "one of a kind" too, perhaps for a different reason. Thus, it would be clear that Adam is a begotten son of God too, which would suggest that either the writer of John erred or Jesus (being the Only begotten son) and Adam would be one and the same; what do you think?

true, if you want a discussion on it, i'd be happy to discuss it with you though.

not that i am a master of biblical knowledge, but I think I could do well on debating this. Perhaps we can start a one-on-one debate on this issue?

... So its not unusual for these prophecies to be applied to Jesus...thats what Christianity is about.

Actually it is very unusual (in the case of Isaiah 7:14). Matthew is the only writer that tries to link Jesus's birth to the prophesy - even though other bible writers wrote about Jesus's birth. In fact, there are numerous evidence that Matthew is [almost] the only writer who tries to link Jesus to anything in the Old Testament, and have done a pretty poor jobs with this on numerous occassion. But, that's for another debate all together.

 

[Pegg]

And this is my point. If the verse reads "by means of him all things were created" then the verse would be talking about God (Jehovah) not Jesus (unless you think Jesus and Jehovah are the same [which i know you don't]). So, that would debunk your argument that Jesus is "one of a kind because he is the only one that was created by Jehovah" since you would not have any biblical evidence that Jehovah did not create Adam directly. This scriputure would clearly be saying all things, which would include both Jesus and Adam, was created by Jehovah. So we are back to square one.

this is precisely the reason why any scripture we read must harmonize with other scriptures...and with the context of the passage we are reading.

The idea that jesus could be Jehovah does not fit in the context, nor does it harmonize with other scriptures.

Lets look at the context...
Vs 1 'Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through God’s will, ...May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father. 3 We thank God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ always when we pray for YOU
Paul is clearly speaking of God and Christ as two separate individuals...so he would not be meaning to say that Jesus is Jehovah and then at the same time thank God the Father for sending Jesus.

We also need to see if the idea harmonizes with other scriptures... now look at Pauls writings at 1Cor 15:27 For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone
You can see here that Paul is saying that Christ is 'subject' to the Father...and that the only exception when it comes to Christs authority is that God himself is not subject to Christ. So again, Jesus cannot be Jehovah if Jesus is a subject of Jehovah.
And its for this reason that the NWT adds in the [other] in the verse in question...it makes it clear that, apart from God himself, Jesus created all 'other' things.

So Adam would also be "a single of its kind," "the only member of a kin or kind" "unique" as well. While I understand that Jesus would be ""one of a kind" for a reason, Adam would also be "one of a kind" too, perhaps for a different reason. Thus, it would be clear that Adam is a begotten son of God too, which would suggest that either the writer of John erred or Jesus (being the Only begotten son) and Adam would be one and the same; what do you think?

I think you are missing a vital point. Jesus created mankind....yes he was under Gods instruction, but none the less, Jesus is the one who created Adam. But God is the one who created Jesus....thats a very significant difference. It makes Jesus alone, the only begotten of God....whereas Adam is a creation brought into existence through Jesus. Its not wrong for Adam to be called a 'son of God'...the angels are also called 'sons of God' and yet were created through Jesus too. But its what makes Jesus unique in that he alone was created directly by God while all other things were created through Jesus.

Besides that, Adam was not one of a kind anyway... Eve was also created...and then millions of mankind have come into existence too. So Adam is not unique really....we are all 'adam' if you think about it.

not that i am a master of biblical knowledge, but I think I could do well on debating this. Perhaps we can start a one-on-one debate on this issue?

ok thats fine, I'd like to discuss it in more detail. You can start it off as im too lazy

Actually it is very unusual (in the case of Isaiah 7:14). Matthew is the only writer that tries to link Jesus's birth to the prophesy - even though other bible writers wrote about Jesus's birth. In fact, there are numerous evidence that Matthew is [almost] the only writer who tries to link Jesus to anything in the Old Testament, and have done a pretty poor jobs with this on numerous occassion. But, that's for another debate all together.

well Matthews gospel was accepted by all the apostles...so they must have all agreed with it.

 

[Big_TJ]

...this is precisely the reason why any scripture we read must harmonize with other scriptures...

Ok, this would be a separate discussion - and, for the records, I agree that Jesus is not Jehovah.

...
And its for this reason that the NWT adds in the [other] in the verse in question...it makes it clear that, apart from God himself, Jesus created all 'other' things.

...
Pegg, apart from Colossians 1:16, is there any other scriptures that said/suggest that everything (except Jesus) was created by Jesus?

I think you are missing a vital point. Jesus created mankind....

No, i understand your point - i just see two problems with your point:
1) At this point, there is insufficient evidence that Jesus created everything (except Jesus himself).
2) You are arguing that Jesus is "one of a kind" because of a specific reason. I am simply saying that Adam, and even Eve would also be "one of a kind" for other reasons - therefore, both Jesus and Adam would be one of a kind (for different reasons). You, yourself admit this. So, they are both "begotten" son of Jehovah. This is also compounded by the fact that Jehovah also refered to other individuals in a way that suggest they are his "begotten" son too. So, JWs should either view John's writing as containing error, or that Jesus and Adam are one and the same.

ok thats fine, I'd like to discuss it in more detail. You can start it off as im too lazy

No problem, Will do

well Matthews gospel was accepted by all the apostles...so they must have all agreed with it.

Do you have a source for the underlined section? Also, the section is a HUGE assumption; what do you think?

 

[Pegg]

Ok, this would be a separate discussion - and, for the records, I agree that Jesus is not Jehovah.
...
Pegg, apart from Colossians 1:16, is there any other scriptures that said/suggest that everything (except Jesus) was created by Jesus?

we apply Proverbs 8 to Jesus

22 “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. ...27 When he prepared the heavens I was there; ...30 then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day,...32 “And now, O sons, listen to me; yes, happy are the ones that keep my very ways. 33 Listen to discipline and become wise, and do not show any neglect. 34 Happy is the man that is listening to me by keeping awake at my doors day by day, by watching at the posts of my entrances. 35 For the one finding me will certainly find life, and gets goodwill from Jehovah.

we believe this passage applies to Christ Jesus in his pre-human position as Gods firstborn. Jesus worked beside God as his 'master worker' and it is according to the revealing by holy spirit to Paul, that it means that all things came into existence through Jesus ( thats what Paul says in Colossians)

and this is why Jesus is unique as the son of God or 'only begotten'... i've said this a few times now, but again, its because he is the one creation that Jehovah directly created. Once Jesus was in the picture, he existed with Jehovah and performed creative works under Gods direction.

besides that prophetic description of him, we also can cite:

John 1:3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence 4 by means of him was life,

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world came into existence through him, but the world did not know him.

1 Corinthians 8:6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.

Hebrews 1:2 has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things

both Jesus and Adam would be one of a kind (for different reasons). You, yourself admit this. So, they are both "begotten" son of Jehovah.

even though Adam is called a son of God, Jehovah didnt beget Adam.

Jehovah created Jesus....then Jesus created Adam. So Adam was not begotten by Jehovah in the 'same' way he begot Jesus. Thats why only Jesus is rightly called the only begotten of God.

I would agree with you if we did not hear Paul or John speak of Jesus as the one through whom all things came into existence. But even if Jehovah did personally create Adam, he is still not an 'only begotten' or unique for the reason that millions of children would discount him from being one of a kind or only begotten.

Do you have a source for the underlined section? Also, the section is a HUGE assumption; what do you think?

From as far back as Papias of Hierapolis (early second century C.E.) onward, we have a line of early witnesses to the fact that Matthew wrote this Gospel and that it is an authentic part of the Word of God.

McClintock and Strong’s Cyclopedia states: “Passages from Matthew are quoted by Justin Martyr, by the author of the letter to Diognetus (see in Otto’s Justin Martyr, vol. ii), by Hegesippus, Irenæus, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus, Clement, Tertullian, and Origen. It is not merely from the matter, but the manner of the quotations, from the calm appeal as to a settled authority, from the absence of all hints of doubt, that we regard it as proved that the book we possess had not been the subject of any sudden change.”

Jerome says: “Matthew, who is also Levi, and who from a publican came to be an apostle, first of all composed a Gospel of Christ in Judaea in the Hebrew language and characters for the benefit of those of the circumcision who had believed.” Jerome adds that the Hebrew text of this Gospel was preserved in his day (fourth and fifth centuries C.E.) in the library that Pamphilus had collected in Caesarea. (De viris inlustribus (Concerning Illustrious Men), chapter III)


And early in the 3rd century, Origen is quoted by Eusebius as saying that the “first was written . . . according to Matthew, . . . who published it for those who from Judaism came to believe, composed as it was in the Hebrew language". (The Ecclesiastical History, VI, XXV, 3-6.)



We also consider that Matthew was one of the chosen 12 apostles and for that reason, we can trust that he had God’s spirit upon him.

 

[Big_TJ]

we apply Proverbs 8 to Jesus

I would tend to agree with you if verse 3 & 4 did not specifically shows that it was a FEMALE who was speaking these words. And for the other scriptures, does "everything" include humans? Just asking, because we generally don't normally refer to humans as "things" so it is probable that these verses do not include human.

even though Adam is called a son of God, Jehovah didnt beget Adam.
Jehovah created Jesus....then Jesus created Adam. So Adam was not begotten by Jehovah in the 'same' way he begot Jesus. Thats why only Jesus is rightly called the only begotten of God.

Be careful with the word 'beget'; Jehovah never really 'beget' Jesus (in the true meaning of "beget").

But even if Jehovah did personally create Adam, he is still not an 'only begotten' or unique for the reason that millions of children would discount him from being one of a kind or only begotten.

No, Adam would be unique in the sense that he is the only man who was created/begotten without a man or a woman or through the normal pro-creation (beget) process. Not to mention that nothing in the greek word "monogenes" implies "begotten" and this word has been removed from several newer translation of the bible. So, you cannot really factor "begotten" or "beget" much in this discussion, can you?

From as far back as Papias of Hierapolis (early second century C.E.) onward, we have a line of early witnesses to the fact that Matthew wrote this Gospel and that it is an authentic part of the Word of God. . . . .

I must had miscommunicated and for this I apologise. What you claimed was that "Matthews gospel was accepted by all the apostles..." and I had asked for a source for this. I am not contending whether or not "the deciple Matthew" wrote " the book Matthew" which is the information you provided. What I wanted was a source for your view that the gospel of Matthew was accepted by all the apostles.

And for the record, I think it is well known that it is unlikely that the deciple "Matthew" wrote the book "Matthew" but that's another discussion:yes:.

 

[Big_TJ]

Pegg, as I indicated, I would start a one-on-one debate to discuss whether or not the "there is nothing in the bible that suggest reincarnation exist." Here is the link:
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...j-vs-pegg-does-bible-suggest.html#post3052846

I would really appreciate your participation.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I would like JW's view on this question. I have seen where JWs believe that Jesus is the archangel Michael based on several scriptures including 1 Thess 4:16 (....with archangel's voice )
So, with the same analysis, does JW believe that Jesus is Adam? These scriptures woud suggest that he is:
John 3:16 (Jesus referred to as God's "Only Begotten Son") and
Luke 3:38 (... the Son of Adam, the Son of God)
Here, we have one scripture saying that Jesus is God's only begotten son, and another scripture saying that Adam is God's Son (and the context of the last scripture - being one to show lineage - would support an ascertion that Adam is God's Begotten Son)
So, is Jesus and Adam are the same? If not, why?
Thanks in advance

What is your thinking about Genesis 2 v 7 ?

Luke 3 v 38 does indicate that Adam is the first human son of God [Not Son, but son]
According to Genesis 2 v 7 wasn't Adam, Not begotten, but created ?
Adam was not animated [alive] before receiving the 'breath of life' then, at that point, the created from dust Adam became a living soul or person.

Besides John 3 v 16 please notice in reference to Jesus at John 1 v 18 Jesus is mentioned as 'only begotten'. Not only begotten on earth but already 'only begotten' in the heavens. Wouldn't 'only' begotten suggest an 'only' child ?
Jesus being the only-begotten [unique] among others.
Even the earthly Jesus was unique because his fleshly brothers and sisters were his half brothers and half sisters.

According to Scripture Jehovah had no start or no beginning.-Psalm 90 v 2
Jesus on the other hand had a heavenly start or beginning.
Revelation 1 v 5; 3 v 14 mentions Jesus as the beginning of the creation by God.
That means that only the un-created God was before the beginning, and Jesus was not before the beginning as the un-begotten God was before the beginning.
That places Jesus as long alive in the heavens when Adam took his first breath.
Wouldn't that make Adam a separate creation from Jesus?

Although Jesus and Adam were both created, only Jesus is 'only-begotten' Son.
That is because the heavenly Jesus, before being sent to earth to be born, existed in the heavens before Adam was created as God's son. [Not as Son, (capital 'S') and not as only-begotten] because God, through Jesus, already had angelic sons before creating Adam.

 

[Big_TJ]

What is your thinking about Genesis 2 v 7 ?

Luke 3 v 38 does indicate that Adam is the first human son of God [Not Son, but son]
According to Genesis 2 v 7 wasn't Adam, Not begotten, but created ?
Adam was not animated [alive] before receiving the 'breath of life' then, at that point, the created from dust Adam became a living soul or person.

Besides John 3 v 16 please notice in reference to Jesus at John 1 v 18 Jesus is mentioned as 'only begotten'. Not only begotten on earth but already 'only begotten' in the heavens. Wouldn't 'only' begotten suggest an 'only' child ?
Jesus being the only-begotten [unique] among others.
Even the earthly Jesus was unique because his fleshly brothers and sisters were his half brothers and half sisters.

According to Scripture Jehovah had no start or no beginning.-Psalm 90 v 2
Jesus on the other hand had a heavenly start or beginning.
Revelation 1 v 5; 3 v 14 mentions Jesus as the beginning of the creation by God.
That means that only the un-created God was before the beginning, and Jesus was not before the beginning as the un-begotten God was before the beginning.
That places Jesus as long alive in the heavens when Adam took his first breath.
Wouldn't that make Adam a separate creation from Jesus?

Although Jesus and Adam were both created, only Jesus is 'only-begotten' Son.
That is because the heavenly Jesus, before being sent to earth to be born, existed in the heavens before Adam was created as God's son. [Not as Son, (capital 'S') and not as only-begotten] because God, through Jesus, already had angelic sons before creating Adam.

While I review your post to give it the response it deserves, I want to ask you two questions:

1) what does "only begotten" means to you?
2) do you accept that Adam was created by Jesus and not by Jehovah?

Also, are you a Witness? I only asked because I want to put your response in context.

Thanks?

 

[Big_TJ]

If Pegg is on, I would not mind her telling me why is there a disconnect between her information and the information in the New World Translation of the Holy Scripture? On more than one occassion, Pegg ascerted that Jehovah only created Jesus and Jesus created everything else. But, Genesis 2:7 in the NWT seems to disagree. Genesis 2:7 clearly states that "And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of the dust from the ground and blew into his nostril the breath of life, and the man became a living soul." Online Bible ? Read or Download Free: MP3, AAC, PDF, EPUB, Audio This seem to clearly show that it was Jehovah who created Adam; not Jesus.
So, Pegg, can you clear this up for me? Was Adam created by Jesus or by Jehovah?

 

[Pegg]

If Pegg is on, I would not mind her telling me why is there a disconnect between her information and the information in the New World Translation of the Holy Scripture? On more than one occassion, Pegg ascerted that Jehovah only created Jesus and Jesus created everything else. But, Genesis 2:7 in the NWT seems to disagree. Genesis 2:7 clearly states that "And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of the dust from the ground and blew into his nostril the breath of life, and the man became a living soul." Online Bible ? Read or Download Free: MP3, AAC, PDF, EPUB, Audio This seem to clearly show that it was Jehovah who created Adam; not Jesus.
So, Pegg, can you clear this up for me? Was Adam created by Jesus or by Jehovah?

Hi, and thanks for your question.

Obviously Jehovah is the 'almighty' and for that reason he is rightly called our creator. But how he creates is another matter.

There are numerous verses that tell us that God used a 'master worker' to bring things into existence.

In Genesis we hear God speaking to someone else when he said "let US make man in OUR image according to OUR likeness"

Then we have the christian writers who revealed the truth about Jesus role in the creation when John says : John 1:3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence 4 by means of him was life

Paul makes clarification that shows we still view Jehovah as that Almighty creator because all power and to create comes from him....but he imbued Jesus, his master worker, with that power and ability
1 Corinthians 8:6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.

The father and son have worked together... Jesus said of himself (John 5:19) Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

 

[Big_TJ]

Hi, and thanks for your question.

Obviously Jehovah is the 'almighty' and for that reason he is rightly called our creator. But how he creates is another matter.

There are numerous verses that tell us that God used a 'master worker' to bring things into existence.

In Genesis we hear God speaking to someone else when he said "let US make man in OUR image according to OUR likeness"

Then we have the christian writers who revealed the truth about Jesus role in the creation when John says : John 1:3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence 4 by means of him was life

Paul makes clarification that shows we still view Jehovah as that Almighty creator because all power and to create comes from him....but he imbued Jesus, his master worker, with that power and ability
1 Corinthians 8:6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.

The father and son have worked together... Jesus said of himself (John 5:19) Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

Pegg,
I asked you before and you did not respond - is it likely that "All things" does not include humans? Gene 2:7 did not say Jehovah "caused man to be created" or that he "used a master builder" to create man. It specifically said that Jehovah formed man from the dust - this is Jehovah DOING the forming (plain and simple). If Jehovah had wanted to tell us that it was HE who created man, how much clearer could he have been? You are simply ignoring the verse as it does not correspond to your views. There is not ONE verse in the bible that specifically states that Jesus made man. Here, there is a specific verse that state, clearly and plainly, that it was Jehovah who made man. Why are you ignoring what the bible say instead of ignoring what you THINK the bible says?

 

[Pegg]

Pegg,
I asked you before and you did not respond - is it likely that "All things" does not include humans? Gene 2:7 did not say Jehovah "caused man to be created" or that he "used a master builder" to create man. It specifically said that Jehovah formed man from the dust - this is Jehovah DOING the forming (plain and simple).

the revelation of truth comes in stages. One prophet gives us a little information, then someone else adds to that information so that the picture becomes even more defined and detailed.

If it were not for Jehovah, Jesus could create nothing at all. So Jehovah is the source of Jesus power and he is rightly called our creator.

If Jehovah had wanted to tell us that it was HE who created man, how much clearer could he have been? You are simply ignoring the verse as it does not correspond to your views. There is not ONE verse in the bible that specifically states that Jesus made man.

all the scritpures must harmonize...if just one verse says something a little differently, then we must find a way to harmonize that verse with the others.

Its not that we do not believe Jehovah is our creator, but it is the fact that Jesus is named as the one through whom all things came into existence. The only way this can harmonize with Genesis is to conclude that Jesus worked with God and was under Gods instruction.

 

[Ron Hackel]

I'm not a JW but this is an answer that you probably have not seen as of yet. Jesus was the substitute for Adam. There had been war in heaven.

REVELATION 12 : 7 "And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back." The word war is the Greek word polemia which means an aggressive refuting of one's ideas or principles. So, it wasn't a physical war. Which makes sense because if God is all powerful no one would be able to wage that type of war. We know from scripture that Lucifer coveted God's position and tried to attain it by trying to refute God's principles of ruling. God rules by the law of love. Lucifer said he had a superior plan. It is the system the world now lives under and thinks is just great. Lucifer system was the law of greed-The American dream. In order to refute Lucifer's claims God created humans in his image to demonstrate to the Universe what he was like.

1 TIMOTHY 6 : 16 "Who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see." So God creates something observable.

God gave Adam dominion over the earth, similar to God's dominion over the Universe and allowed him to procreate. How we treated our children and the earth would give visible proof to the Universe of what God was like. We would have been an image of God because he had put his Spirit in Adam and Eve.
This of course did not sit well with Satan because the only weapons he had to fight with were his lies. Their showing what God was like would have disarmed him. To counter God's plan he deceived Eve by double talk inferring that God was not acting in a loving manner by not allowing her access to the tree of good and evil. Once he deceived her into mistrusting God, God had to remove His Spirit. As a loving God he can not remain in someone that doubts him.

HEBREWS 11 : 6 "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."
Now without a spirit in us we are dead. Satan couldn't have the Universe see him killing someone so he put his spirit in her. She basically became a slave to Satan's suggestions after that.

2 PETER 2 : 19 "for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him."

After Adam ate the fruit he was in the same condition a slave to Satan's suggestions.

The Bible says they knew they were naked after they ate the fruit and covered themselves with leaves, thus no longer nude.

But when God came in the garden they hid and Adam told God they hid because they were naked. since they were not nude this has to be symbolic.

ISAIAH 61 : 10 "For he has clothed me with garments of salvation and arrayed me in a robe of righteousness." When your clothed, your righteous and the opposite when naked you feel unrighteous. They thought they had wronged God and thus hid.

God asked them, "Who told you that you are naked? The only one there is Satan. Satan told them they were unrighteous that they wronged God. He still has the entire world believing this lie. When God told them not to eat off the tree he was talking figuratively. As he did to the people of Capernaum when he told them to eat his flesh and drink his blood to be raised the last day. He was saying you have to know me so well it would be like eating me. In the garden he was telling them the opposite. Don't eat, don't try to know what is good or evil. Rely on God instead of trying to decide for yourself. He said or else you shall surely die. Think of all the dumb things humans have done that have backfired. We plowed up the great plains and caused the dust bowl. The Europeans brought goods in from the Orient and brought in the black death. This of course is an endless list and is going to end with us destroying this very earth. God was just warning them of the consequences of using our freewill. Adam transferred that fear of God to his offspring. When this earth blows again like it did at the flood God is coming back to rescue us. Only because Jesus became the new Adam are any of us going to be saved. He showed us what God is like, something that Adam was supposed to do

ROMANS 5 : 18 "Consequently, just as the result of one trespass (doubting God) was condemnation for all men (we would have all been afraid to come to him when he comes to rescue us), so also the result of one act of righteousness (faith in God-Jesus committed suicide on the cross knowing God would raise him from the dead) was justification that brings life for all men." Justify means to set right. To set our minds right about God, negating the lies of Satan which he has introduced to the world by the use of all the organized churches.

Did Jesus actually commit suicide?

JOHN 10 : 17,18 "The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord."

So Jesus was the new Adam in that he was doing the job Adam was to do.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Romans 5 v 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one [Adam] many were constituted sinners, likewise also through the obedience of the one [Jesus} many will be constituted righteous.
- Matthew 20 v 28.

What God provided through Jesus was a provision for humans to overcome an inherited sinful nature from father Adam.
This was made possible according to God's Word [1st Cor. 15 v 45] that the 'last Adam' [Jesus] became a life-giving spirit [ the one man Jesus - Rom. 5 v 15 ]

When one person gives up his life to save another often he is called a Hero.
When one thinks of a hero they do not think of him committing suicide .
Whose life does a suicide person save ? [they are life takers not life giving]
Jesus to Christians is a Hero because Jesus gave up is life so we could gain life.
Jesus remained faithful unto death even under adverse conditions.
Adam was faithless in least. Jesus was faithful in much.