Is Jesus Adam?

[kjw47]

Ok. So, just so that I understand, are you saying that you don't know if Jehovah blew in the nostrils or put Adam in Eden through Jesus because the bible did not give a step by step occurence of that event? If that is the case, would it not be the same with Adam since the bible did not give a step by step occurence of how he made Adam? Since Jehovah never said how he made Adam, wouldnt that also mean that we don't know how it was done?

We know that Jehovah created Adam through Jesus, but creating and giving the breath of life are two different things. But i do believe that since Jesus is called Gods master worker( proverbs 8) that there is a very good chance that all things were done through Jesus. With the exception of Jesus being the first and last directly created by Jehovah-- prov 8: 22,, rev 3:14

 

[Big_TJ]

We know that Jehovah created Adam through Jesus,

 

[URAVIP2ME]

You asked me this about 3 times and I responded all the times - why do you keep asking? I said that I dont know. It could be Jesus, it could be Jehovah's wife, it could be other angels, it could be himself. The bible does not say, and any answer you supplied to this is likely to be a speculative answer with little or no biblical evidence. But, for my information, could you kindly tell me to whom was he speaking, and provide reference (biblical or otherwise)?

Since Jesus is firstborn in the heavens [Col. 1 vs 15,16; Psalm 89 v27 ],
and Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God [ Rev. 3 v 14 , ]
and all angels came through Jesus, then the 'us' of Gen. [1 v 26] would be Jehovah speaking to the pre-human heavenly Jesus.

 

[Big_TJ]

Since Jesus is firstborn in the heavens [Col. 1 vs 15,16; Psalm 89 v27 ],
and Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God [ Rev. 3 v 14 , ]
and all angels came through Jesus, then the 'us' of Gen. [1 v 26] would be Jehovah speaking to the pre-human heavenly Jesus.

Cool! I have no problem with that analysis. The only problem is that you seem to be making some huge assumptions that may not be true. For example:
1) You are assuming that Jehovah made that statement immediately after beginning the creation. In other words, you are assuming that it was only Jesus who was created at that time. Since Jehovah said this on day six - AFTER animals, plants, etc were created - it is highly llikely that other angelic bodies were created before that point. The point is that Jesus being the "firstborn of the heavens" does not automatically mean that Jehovah was addressing Jesus. As I stated, Jesus was not the only one who existed at the time when Jehovah supposedly utter those words.

And with the JWs using "day" to be "a thousand years." It could very well be more than 6000 years between when Jesus was created and when Jehovah uttered the words.

2) you are assuming that Jehovah could not be talking to himself. Since Jehovah is all-powerful and is God, I see no reason to limit his abilities.

3) you seem to be ignoring the latter part of verse 27 which clear says " male and female he created them." So, it could be argued that the "us" does include someone with a female image.

There are others, but I hope you see my point. I still think the best answer for who is the us is "I don't know."

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Cool! I have no problem with that analysis. The only problem is that you seem to be making some huge assumptions that may not be true. For example:
1) You are assuming that Jehovah made that statement immediately after beginning the creation. In other words, you are assuming that it was only Jesus who was created at that time. Since Jehovah said this on day six - AFTER animals, plants, etc were created - it is highly llikely that other angelic bodies were created before that point. The point is that Jesus being the "firstborn of the heavens" does not automatically mean that Jehovah was addressing Jesus. As I stated, Jesus was not the only one who existed at the time when Jehovah supposedly utter those words.
And with the JWs using "day" to be "a thousand years." It could very well be more than 6000 years between when Jesus was created and when Jehovah uttered the words.
2) you are assuming that Jehovah could not be talking to himself. Since Jehovah is all-powerful and is God, I see no reason to limit his abilities.
3) you seem to be ignoring the latter part of verse 27 which clear says " male and female he created them." So, it could be argued that the "us" does include someone with a female image.
There are others, but I hope you see my point. I still think the best answer for who is the us is "I don't know."

Absolutely Angels were created before the material/physical realm.
The angels clapped with joy, so to speak, at earth's creation.-Job 38 vs 4,7

Since all other angels came through Jesus [ Col 1 vs 15,16; 1st Cor. 8 v 6]
then the 'us' of Genesis would include the first or only-begotten one.

How many years are mentioned at Revelation 20 v 6 ?_________
Jesus' millennial-long judgment day is a thousand-year day before Jesus hands back the kingdom to his Father- 1st Cor. 15 v 24

God is singular Creator. Jesus is God's agent used in creation.
So, God making male and female of Gen. [1 v 27] is talking about earthly creation.
All spirit creation [angels] are always referred to as 'sons'.
- Gen. 6 vs 2,4; Job 1 v 6; 38 v 7

 

[Big_TJ]

Since all other angels came through Jesus [ Col 1 vs 15,16; 1st Cor. 8 v 6]
then the 'us' of Genesis would include the first or only-begotten one.

As with many JWs on several issues, you clearly missed the point. There is absolutely no reason to assume that Jehovah must have been talking to the first or only begotten one. There was about 6000 man-years between the creation of Jesus and the utterance of the "us" statement. In other words, Jehovah could have made Jesus, then Jesus created everything else (including the heavenly angelic bodies), then take a break, then utter the "us" statement to any of the creation (either HIS creation or Jesus's creation). He could be speaking either to Jesus, or to any other thing (or angelic body) which Jesus created. It is just not clear scripturally to whom was Jehovah speaking, and the biblical evidence that you submitted is extremely weak at best.

So, God making male and female of Gen. [1 v 27] is talking about earthly creation.
- Gen. 6 vs 2,4; Job 1 v 6; 38 v 7

Again (unexpectedly), you missed the point. If Jehovah is a 'male' and Jesus is a 'male' and they created man in their image, then I would expect the creation would be male. However, it clearly said that the creation was 'male and female.' This could easily lead one to believe that the "us" in Genesis was a 'female.' In other words, the 'male' was made in Jehovah's image, and the 'female' was made in the 'us' image. I am not saying this is what I believe; I am saying this make more sense (to me) more than assuming that the 'us' is Jesus on the sole premise that Jesus was the first of creation. Nothing in the scripture alludes to the belief that Jehovah was talking to the firstborn of all creation. I understand that this is what your organization teaches, and I have no problem with the teaching nor your acceptance. I am simply stating that this belief is not biblically supported.


Just for fun, how do you know that the "us" was not Satan (before Satan was thrown out of heaven?).

All spirit creation [angels] are always referred to as 'sons'.

I think this is another assumption on your part. We do not know why the angels are always referred as 'sons;' it could very well be that they are all 'males.' Can you provide evidence that any angel is a 'female'??

 

[URAVIP2ME]

No reason to provide evidence that any angels are female because in Scripture angels are always male.

 

[Big_TJ]

No reason to provide evidence that any angels are female because in Scripture angels are always male.

Right. So what was your reason for writing this:

All spirit creation [angels] are always referred to as 'sons'.

And if Jesus is 'male' and Jehovah is 'male' how would a female be created in their own in their own image?

Also, what is your response to my point that the scriptures does not necessarily support that the "us" was actually Jehovah's firstborn?

Secondly, is there any scriptural evidence that the "us" was not Satan (before he was kicked out of heaven)?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Don't all things [ Col. 1 vs 15,16 ] come through [not Satan] but through Jesus?_________
That makes only Jesus as God's ONLY-begotten heavenly Son.
Everything else comes through Jesus no one else.

Both male and female can be in God's image because we are not talking about a physical image, but a 'spiritual image' of love, justice, mercy, and wisdom. We can all show to varying degrees God's attributes or qualities. We can all cultivate the fruit of God's spirit.- Gal. 5 vs 22,23.

 

[Big_TJ]

Don't all things [ Col. 1 vs 15,16 ] come through [not Satan] but through Jesus?_________
That makes only Jesus as God's ONLY-begotten heavenly Son.
Everything else comes through Jesus no one else.

Does "all things" mean absolutely no exception? Also, even if 'All things' came through jesus, what does that have to do with the "us"? Did the scripture says that Jehovah was talking to "the only thing that he [jehovah] created? Accept it URAVIP2ME - you simply don't no to whom Jehovah was speaking, and your argument for "Jesus" is EXTREMELY weak, at best.

Both male and female can be in God's image because we are not talking about a physical image, but a 'spiritual image' of love, justice, mercy, and wisdom. We can all show to varying degrees God's attributes or qualities. We can all cultivate the fruit of God's spirit.- Gal. 5 vs 22,23.

Do you guys just make up things as you go along? Where in the bible states that man was made in Jehovah's "spiritual image?" I attended the JW congregration for over 17 years and have NEVER heard this teaching. And, if the "fruit of the spirit" is what the image of God is, how can that image be male or female or both?

 

[kjw47]

Does "all things" mean absolutely no exception? Also, even if 'All things' came through jesus, what does that have to do with the "us"? Did the scripture says that Jehovah was talking to "the only thing that he [jehovah] created? Accept it URAVIP2ME - you simply don't no to whom Jehovah was speaking, and your argument for "Jesus" is EXTREMELY weak, at best.




Do you guys just make up things as you go along? Where in the bible states that man was made in Jehovah's "spiritual image?" I attended the JW congregration for over 17 years and have NEVER heard this teaching. And, if the "fruit of the spirit" is what the image of God is, how can that image be male or female or both?

When Gods word mentioned made in his image, it wasnt speaking of gender, it was more like being capable of giving and receiving love. God loves us and is hoping for the same in return. He called Abraham, friend-- he wants to be our friend as well-- one can learn these truths about Jehovah by listening to his son. Who at John 17:1-6-- told everyone that to gain eternal life one must take in knowledge( know) of his Father, and of Jesus--In verse 3 Jesus tells everyone that his Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD. verse 6 = Jehovah.

 

[Big_TJ]

When Gods word mentioned made in his image, it wasnt speaking of gender, it was more like being capable of giving and receiving love.

Noted....Scriptural reference for this ascertioln would be good, though

God loves us and is hoping for the same in return. He called Abraham, friend-- he wants to be our friend as well-- one can learn these truths about Jehovah by listening to his son. Who at John 17:1-6-- told everyone that to gain eternal life one must take in knowledge( know) of his Father, and of Jesus--In verse 3 Jesus tells everyone that his Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD. verse 6 = Jehovah.

Irrelevant, but noted.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

'Education as in Knowledge' is mental not physical. Knowledge [mental reflection] according to the image of the One who created....... Colossians 3 v 10; Galatians 3 v 28 B; John 17 vs 11,21-23

All can obtain that mental knowledge or image.-John 4 v 24 A

 

[Big_TJ]

'Education as in Knowledge' is mental not physical. Knowledge [mental reflection] according to the image of the One who created....... Colossians 3 v 10; Galatians 3 v 28 B; John 17 vs 11,21-23

All can obtain that mental knowledge or image.-John 4 v 24 A

None of those scriptures seem to relate to you claim that "When Gods word mentioned made in his image, it wasnt speaking of gender, it was more like being capable of giving and receiving love."

But, noted, nevertheless.

 

[kjw47]

Noted....Scriptural reference for this ascertioln would be good, though


Irrelevant, but noted.

There is no scripture as far as i know. But since God is a spirit and we are flesh- Gods image is Love. Because God is love.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

God has power
God has wisdom
God has mercy
God has justice

But God 'IS' love

 

[Big_TJ]

There is no scripture as far as i know. But since God is a spirit and we are flesh- Gods image is Love. Because God is love.

So when Moses supposedly wrote Genesis, he had no idea what he was writing, right? He had to wait until John and Paul wrote their books before he understood what he (Moses) wrote in Genesis, right? Also, all those persons who were using the old testament before John and Paul wrote had absolutely no understanding what they were reading, right?

 

[Big_TJ]

God has power
God has wisdom
God has mercy
God has justice

But God 'IS' love

Right, but man has wisdom, man has mercy (at least some do), man has justice; is man also Love? And I am still struggling to see how any of this relate to Jesus being the "us" in Genesis.

And I am sure I asked you - but you did not respond: Does the "all things" in Colossian means there is no exception? If it does, then why does the JW inserted "other" in their translation? If it doesn't, what are the exceptions, and how do you know?

 

[kjw47]

So when Moses supposedly wrote Genesis, he had no idea what he was writing, right? He had to wait until John and Paul wrote their books before he understood what he (Moses) wrote in Genesis, right? Also, all those persons who were using the old testament before John and Paul wrote had absolutely no understanding what they were reading, right?

Moses knew exactly what he was writing--he didnt use Elohim as a trinity meaning. There were different ways it was used.

 

[Big_TJ]

Moses knew exactly what he was writing--he didnt use Elohim as a trinity meaning. There were different ways it was used.

No, not that. I was talking his writings about God making man in his image. And how do you know that Moses was not using Elohim as a trinity meaning? It's one thing to say you don't believe he was, but another thing to say he wasn't. Do you know what Elohim means? Have you done any research (outside of JW magazines) on this? Have you done any research on the writings in the book of Genesis? If you did, you would understand that Moses did not write anything in Genesis, so you point about "Moses didnt use Elohim as trinity meaning" is, in my opinion, a totally uninformed one.