Is it permitted to beat women per Quran? (challenge for one on one debate with anyone)

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It's misleading to say an Arabic word ever has to have one root meaning. Most Arabic words have multiple meanings and multiple root meanings.

 

[stevecanuck]

It's misleading to say an Arabic word ever has to have one root meaning. Most Arabic words have multiple meanings and multiple root meanings.

That's where subject matter tells you which meaning to use. "Beat/hit/strike" can be used to "beat a path" or "strike a coin". In the case of 4:34, the subject is disobedient women, so "wa idrubuu hunna" clearly refers to giving the ***** a smack to keep her in line.

 

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Actually it's about our relationship with regard to women which is to uplift them and the verses say if you fear, it doesn't say if you know they rebelled/cheated. I find it more rational that God tells us to ignore our suspicions than to act on them.

 

[stevecanuck]

Actually it's about our relationship with regard to women which is to uplift them and the verses say if you fear, it doesn't say if you know they rebelled/cheated. I find it more rational that God tells us to ignore our suspicions than to act on them.

That's the exact opposite of what 4:34 says. It tells men to act on their suspicions

 

[KWED]

No, it’s a bad translation. It really means “Men regarding women are to be up lifters by what he has made some excel others and by what they spend their money, so the good women are obedient, guarding that which is hidden as God has guarded, and as for those you fear rebellion, admonish them while leaving them alone in their bed rooms (regarding this) and (continue to) have intercourse with them therefore if they obey you (by what you admonish them) don’t seek a way against them.”

As for why I translate as intercourse, the word literally for that is Nikah and God only uses that regarding marriage, as in he uses to term marriage which is ironically the same word, however, when God talks about else where, he says “touched women” and other expressions, and here to me it’s obviously not about beating women, but saying, if you fear rebellion - don’t act on your fears, but just admonish them and don’t even bring this up in the bed rooms and continue to have intercourse.

The one place where God is going to tell us about the role men play with respect to women is not going to be them as tyrants over them, that get to beat them as soon as they fear rebellion.

God the exalted, the great, has made men regarding women to be up lifters, suppose to morally support them, to the extent, if we fear rebellion, not to act on it, but just admonish them while leaving them alone in their bed rooms, and to continue to have intercourse with them.

The next verse shows really what should be done if there is a genuine breech between the two to be feared, which is to get one judge from one family and another judge from another.

The Quran else where says it’s not permitted to treat women harshly so let alone beat them!

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I would like someone who genuinely believes I am mistranslating or deceiving regarding the Arabic, to have one on one debate.

I say this because there are many expressions of intercourse in Quran (touching them, entering them, etc), and so to me this also a sign that dark magic prevents people from reflecting properly.

I argue this another verse that dark magic has blinded majority of Muslims, their scholars, and humans towards.

If someone really believes Quran should be translated in a way that permits beating of woman and not how I just said it, I would like a one on one debate about it.

It is obviously a deliberate mistranslation on your part. Your version bears no resemblance to the words used in the Quran.

How do you explain dozens of bilingually fluent, Muslim scholars all getting it wrong and translating the passage as "then beat/hit/strike them"?
And then how do you explain the hadith that clarify the passage to mean a "beating that is not too severe" and to "avoid the face".
And then you need to explain away the part of Muhammad's Farewell Sermon where he repeats the prescription to beat a disobedient wife?
Then what about all those scholars over history who have tried to mitigate the beating by claiming it should only be a light beating?
Why do you think they are all wrong and only you are right?

I understand that many Muslims find the promotion of domestic violence in the Quran to be problematical, but in the context of an ancient book that also prescribes flogging for unmarried sex, amputations for theft, dismemberment, crucifixion for "spreading mischief", etc - a bit of a slap for a disobedient wife really isn't at all strange or out of place.

 

[KWED]

It's misleading to say an Arabic word ever has to have one root meaning. Most Arabic words have multiple meanings and multiple root meanings.

In which case, Allah made a mistake when he revealed the Quran in Arabic. There are many languages that are better suited to precise wording, apparently.

But anyway, even with multiple meanings, the correct one can often be determined through context.
In the context of the verse, and associated hadith, and the nature of the society of the time and the kind of punishments that were common, it is clear that it is referring to physical chastisement.

Also, your argument refutes your claim that it must mean whatever it was you were claiming it meant (it really isn't clear). By your own argument, you have to accept that it could mean "hit/strike/beat".

 

[KWED]

I would like someone who genuinely believes I am mistranslating or deceiving regarding the Arabic, to have one on one debate.

Have you given up on this one?
TBH I don't blame you. There is very little mileage in denying the obvious.

 

[KWED]

If someone really believes Quran should be translated in a way that permits beating of woman and not how I just said it, I would like a one on one debate about it.

Well, you seem to have given up on tying to defend your position.
So we are agreed - the Quran does contain a passage that condones and promotes domestic violence, under certain conditions.

As you have previously said that you don't agree with everything in the Quran, I'm not sure why you were so keen to defend it in this instance, when it was so obviously indefensible.

 

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Well, you seem to have given up on tying to defend your position.
So we are agreed - the Quran does contain a passage that condones and promotes domestic violence, under certain conditions.

As you have previously said that you don't agree with everything in the Quran, I'm not sure why you were so keen to defend it in this instance, when it was so obviously indefensible.

I've already defended my position well enough in this thread. You've brought nothing to the table and so I don't see need to defend my position further.

 

[KWED]

I've already defended my position well enough in this thread. You've brought nothing to the table and so I don't see need to defend my position further.

I explained, with multiple references to the Quran, hadith and classical scholars, why your argument falls apart.
If you cannot make a counter argument to refute my specific points, then your initial argument can be dismissed. That is how debate works. You don't just make an opening statement and then ignore everything else that comes after.

 

[Link]

I explained, with multiple references to the Quran, hadith and classical scholars, why your argument falls apart.
If you cannot make a counter argument to refute my specific points, then your initial argument can be dismissed. That is how debate works. You don't just make an opening statement and then ignore everything else that comes after.

Tafsirs and translations are corrupted due to the dark magic upon the Quran. This would not be that only instance this occurs.

 

[KWED]

Tafsirs and translations are corrupted due to the dark magic upon the Quran. This would not be that only instance this occurs.

 

[Link]

You are asking why people don't translate or interpret it as I showed. I'm telling you it's another sign of dark magic upon the Quran that they don't and did not in the past.

 

[KWED]

You are asking why people don't translate or interpret it as I showed. I'm telling you it's another sign of dark magic upon the Quran that they don't and did not in the past.

That's really your defence for the Quran explicitly condoning and promoting domestic violence - that pretty much every Muslim scholar (including Muhammad himself) was being misled by "dark magic" from Iblis.
By extension, this means that everything in the Quran and all scholars interpretations of it are similarly wrong and just the misguiding work of Iblis.

And Allah never thought it worthwhile or necessary to stop it.

Do you have any idea how insane this sounds?
Don't tell me, it only looks that way because of Iblis' dark magic.

 

[Link]

That's really your defence for the Quran explicitly condoning and promoting domestic violence - that pretty much every Muslim scholar (including Muhammad himself) was being misled by "dark magic" from Iblis.
By extension, this means that everything in the Quran and all scholars interpretations of it are similarly wrong and just the misguiding work of Iblis.

And Allah never thought it worthwhile or necessary to stop it.

Do you have any idea how insane this sounds?
Don't tell me, it only looks that way because of Iblis' dark magic.

This among the reasons Quran tells you to rely only on God and his chosen. Relying on God means to rely on what is from him from revelation and leaders appointed by him clarifying revelation.

There are many ahadith that forbid beating women and children. Those without proof from God for authority are not to be taken as authorities.

 

[stevecanuck]

There are many ahadith that forbid beating women and children.

Yet you give no example.

Those without proof from God for authority are not to be taken as authorities.

I agree with this. If the Qur'an says to beat your disobedient wife, then it's time to take your belt off.

 

[Link]

Yet you give no example.

Prophet (s) reported to have said: I wonder from the man who beats his wife while he is more entitled to be beaten. (Biharul Anwaar, volume 103).

 

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‘Ali, The Commander of the Faithful, says:

“The intelligent person gets guidance through politeness, it is only the animals that cannot be corrected without beatings."4

Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq says:

“Whoever whips another person once, Allah will shower the fiery whip against him."5

The Prophet of Islam said:

“Use love and affection in education and upbringing and don’t have access to cruelty because a wise mentor is better than a cruel one."6

 

[stevecanuck]

Prophet (s) reported to have said: I wonder from the man who beats his wife while he is more entitled to be beaten. (Biharul Anwaar, volume 103).

That does NOT say to not beat your disobedient wife. It's just saying that maybe the husband isn't so great himself. Try harder.

 

[stevecanuck]

‘Ali, The Commander of the Faithful, says:

“The intelligent person gets guidance through politeness, it is only the animals that cannot be corrected without beatings."4

Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq says:

“Whoever whips another person once, Allah will shower the fiery whip against him."5

The Prophet of Islam said:

“Use love and affection in education and upbringing and don’t have access to cruelty because a wise mentor is better than a cruel one."6

Yet the Qur'an says, "And beat them". Which source are you going to follow?