Is it permitted to beat women per Quran? (challenge for one on one debate with anyone)

[stevecanuck]

my dad was a pastor in Dallas so I examined multiple religions before choosing islam in 2002. pure monotheism and staying close to word of god[quran]. that bible followers have long since separated from

You keep quoting the "bashing babies" verse (which of course is as odious as you claim), but then you make excuses for all the commands to kill in the Qur'an. How do you manage to square that circle? Please don't insult us by claiming that all of those commands are made in self defense. Verse 2:191 very clearly consigns self defense to second place behind 'fitnah' as a reason to kill.

 

[stanberger]

You keep quoting the "bashing babies" verse (which of course is as odious as you claim), but then you make excuses for all the commands to kill in the Qur'an. How do you manage to square that circle? Please don't insult us by claiming that all of those commands are made in self defense. Verse 2:191 very clearly consigns self defense to second place behind 'fitnah' as a reason to kill.

no that order was in regards to the upcoming battle with the pagan meccans. in the end no battle occurred. the city surrendered and its inhabitants were given immunity ...ps. yahweh in bible also murdered innocent infants in their cribs[passover]. in Quran exodus story no infanticide by god [passover]. only 9 plagues ...passover is one of the main reasons folks leave judaism and church. they can't worship a god who would murder infants in their cribs

 

[stevecanuck]

no that order was in regards to the upcoming battle with the pagan meccans.

I know. So what? There are two factors you're failing to recognize:

1. The Qur'an does NOT mention the circumstances behind the vast majority of its verses. It simply issues decrees and makes claims irrespective of the circumstances that birthed them. When, for example, 9:29 says, "Fight those who believe not in Allah", it does not mention the historical context. It comes across as a generalized command, and since your god is 'perfect', that's exactly how he wants it to be taken. There is no mitigation of such open-ended and general decrees.

2. More than once the Qur'an states that it is a collection of examples and "similitudes from which Man may take admonition". That means commands to fight are NOT one-offs applicable only to whatever was happening 1400 years ago. They are examples to follow for all time. Your religion tells you that "fighting has been ordained for you", and yes, that means you in the here and now and forever until "the whole of religion is for Allah".

in the end no battle occurred. the city surrendered and its inhabitants were given immunity

Yes, in the same way that Paris was not won by the Nazis in a specific battle. They both saw the military might arrayed against them and sued for peace. If the Meccans had tried to keep their city - THEIR city, Mohamed would have attacked them (in the name of self defense of course).

The predictable whataboutism that followed is deleted.

 

[stanberger]

I know. So what? There are two factors you're failing to recognize:

1. The Qur'an does NOT mention the circumstances behind the vast majority of its verses. It simply issues decrees and makes claims irrespective of the circumstances that birthed them. When, for example, 9:29 says, "Fight those who believe not in Allah", it does not mention the historical context. It comes across as a generalized command, and since your god is 'perfect', that's exactly how he wants it to be taken. There is no mitigation of such open-ended and general decrees.

2. More than once the Qur'an states that it is a collection of examples and "similitudes from which Man may take admonition". That means commands to fight are NOT one-offs applicable only to whatever was happening 1400 years ago. They are examples to follow for all time. Your religion tells you that "fighting has been ordained for you", and yes, that means you in the here and now and forever until "the whole of religion is for Allah".
in numbers 23 ' moses killed all medianites but kept 36000 child virgins as a war booty ' moses preferred killing all the people except the virgin children so he would nt have to face any defeated adversary on the battlefield ever again. now thats horrific


Yes, in the same way that Paris was not won by the Nazis in a specific battle. They both saw the military might arrayed against them and sued for peace. If the Meccans had tried to keep their city - THEIR city, Mohamed would have attacked them (in the name of self defense of course).

The predictable whataboutism that followed is deleted.

I know. So what? There are two factors you're failing to recognize:

1. The Qur'an does NOT mention the circumstances behind the vast majority of its verses. It simply issues decrees and makes claims irrespective of the circumstances that birthed them. When, for example, 9:29 says, "Fight those who believe not in Allah", it does not mention the historical context. It comes across as a generalized command, and since your god is 'perfect', that's exactly how he wants it to be taken. There is no mitigation of such open-ended and general decrees.

2. More than once the Qur'an states that it is a collection of examples and "similitudes from which Man may take admonition". That means commands to fight are NOT one-offs applicable only to whatever was happening 1400 years ago. They are examples to follow for all time. Your religion tells you that "fighting has been ordained for you", and yes, that means you in the here and now and forever until "the whole of religion is for Allah".



Yes, in the same way that Paris was not won by the Nazis in a specific battle. They both saw the military might arrayed against them and sued for peace. If the Meccans had tried to keep their city - THEIR city, Mohamed would have attacked them (in the name of self defense of course).

The predictable whataboutism that followed is deleted.

 

[stevecanuck]

And just when it looked like you actually learned how to use the reply button .....

 

[KWED]

for me to leave the church where my father was a pastor of in Dallas for any religion without first studying it carefully would have been foolish ...after comparing quran to bible the choice was easy. even my dad understood. monotheism was what Jesus Muhammad and all true prophets taught my dad never really understood trinity voted on at nicea 325ad

Why this incessant referring back to some weird caricature of Christianity whenever I raise points about Islam? So once again...

1. You claimed the Quran says "do not harm women and children". Provide the verse.
2. I have shown sahih hadith where Muhammad approves the killing of women and children during night raids on the polytheists.
3. The Quran prescribes execution by torture for people who oppose Islam.
3. The Quran says that a husband should beat a wife for ill-conduct (under certain conditions).

Forget about the Bible. We are agreed that it is violent and intolerant.
This is about Allah, The Quran and Muhammad.
So, address those 4 points (with actual answers rather than just crying about "Islamophobes" or rejecting the sunnah as fabrication).

 

[KWED]

apples to apples. bible v quran. psalms 137. 9. 'happy is he who bashes the babies heads against the rocks ' not in quran this is the 3rd time I've provided you this verse still waiting for the equivalent in quran

Are you ok? You seem to be having trouble.

 

[KWED]

up next men demanding the right to follow little girls into public restrooms no thanx. glad I left church for islam 2002

You are clearly unaware that your prophet Muhammad married a girl when she was six and had sex with her when she was 9. This is common knowledge and accepted amongst Muslim scholars. Will you leave Islam now because it condones sex with children? Or will you just avoid the issue and repeat one of your nonsensically dishonest claims?

 

[KWED]

my dad was a pastor in Dallas so I examined multiple religions before choosing islam in 2002. pure monotheism and staying close to word of god[quran]. that bible followers have long since separated from

Why did you look for a replacement religion?
On what basis do you assume that any kind of gods exist?

 

[KWED]

no that order was in regards to the upcoming battle with the pagan meccans.

So you admit that Allah told the Muslims to kill anyone who tried to defend their homes against the invader.

BTW, why do you think Allah's perfect, final, unchangeable guide for all humanity, for all places and all times - devotes so much space to specific historical events that are of no relevance to anyone after the event? How does that make sense?