Is it okay to hit your children?

[Darkdale]

I hadn't noticed anyone claiming that, Darkdale... or dragging political correctness into this. Could you point me to it?

I think I brought it up a page or two ago. The exaggeration was to make light of the prevailing pacifist attitude. It was meant to be sarcasm.

 

[Ryan2065]

Jibberish lol, and you don't huh ? Tell me how to bring up children when you have any. I'll go on my experience and not some quasi-scientic nonsense.

I was pointing out the fact that spanking does not do the damage that you guys suggested it does.

I'm not basing my beliefs on research, I'm basing them on the belief that violence should not be resorted to when words can be used. All the research in the world won't change that belief.

Right, but can you agree that spanking in certain situations would be find for the child and actually help him out? I don't care that you will never do it, but others do and their kids don't grow up to be axe murderers.

We need more than instincts, I think.

Instincts and lack of restraint can result in beating.

I agree. That is why beating is wrong and spanking is alright. I believe this is a topic on spanking. If you want to discuss beating, you might want to go elsewhere. On the same note I could start bringing up all the bad things that happen when a parent screams at their kids every chance they get (because you know, you are associating "beating" with spanking, and they are not the same.)

Ditto, though my own parents tried to play the "we're only beating you because we love you" thing, and I only wanted to tear their arms off. However, I'm glad I got thrashed whenever I started playing around with electrical outlets; I never stopped being paranoid around them.

Again, this is spanking we are talking about, not beating. They are two very different things. Why is it people cannot see this? One person is just as likely to "beat" their kids as they are to scream at them. Both of them do damage, one on a physical level, the other on a psychological level. Both are wrong and both are not to be done.

If you all want to continue the debate on if dispilinary hitting is alright or not then please continue. But please quit calling a spank a beating, they are two very different things and to triviliaze the emotional and physical abuse that some children do suffer in order to further your own views is quite wrong.

 

[Aqualung]

Yes. I want people to realise that I'm not talking beatings. I'm just talking physical discipline, which are completely different.

 

[Flappycat]

I didn't know we were here to discuss politics.

 

[Flappycat]

But please quit calling a spank a beating, they are two very different things and to triviliaze the emotional and physical abuse that some children do suffer in order to further your own views is quite wrong.

I wasn't. You're mistakenly assuming that my views on this are the diametric opposite of your own.

 

[Ryan2065]

I didn't know we were here to discuss politics.

So you are saying that there is no difference between someone picking up their child and throwing them against the wall because they looked at them funny and someone giving their kid a light tap on the butt when they do something wrong?

 

[Ryan2065]

I wasn't. You're mistakenly assuming that my views on this are the diametric opposite of your own.

Ahh, that comment wasnt directed at you. =) Just more towards everyone who called "spanking" "beating"

 

[michel]

We need more than instincts, I think. Instincts and lack of restraint can result in beating.

Alas, that is true. That and your comment two or three posts after, in reply to Garkdale's comment back to you on this one.

When I married my wife, we decided we were going to be the best parents ever; we knew it all. We had learned by experience where our parents had unintentionally gone wrong, and we were going to put things right........

Unfortunately, I have an extremely low threshold to stress; The results of which made me 'not such a good parent'. The trauma of being in a supermarket with a child by my side, screaming that he wants a sweet, with the other shoppers all staring meant that I couldn't react the way I should have done. Of course, I broke the golden rule, brought him somme sweets, and in the process empowered him, and erroded any form of respect that he had for my authority.

I can remember spanking our sons on very few occasions - but that was only because I walked away before that thought of doing so crystalized in my head.

As soon as the first one was born, and I couldn't bear to hear him cry, after having made sure he wasn't hungry, too cold, too warm, or had a nappy-full, I knew I was in trouble. I guess the fact that I learned to leave my wife to practice the 'right things to do' was maybe the practical solution, but it left me feeling very worthless as a father.

 

[Flappycat]

So you are saying that there is no difference between someone picking up their child and throwing them against the wall because they looked at them funny and someone giving their kid a light tap on the butt when they do something wrong?

No. You've basically ignored my posts and seem to have a stronger inclination to color everyone who doesn't hold exactly the same opinions as yourself with the same marker than to participate in any meaningful discussion.

 

[Flappycat]

I dunno. I think it's just because I was raised around animals and younger siblings, but I've really never had any problem at all getting kids to cooperate. As far as I can tell, your best bet is to remember that they're going to react to the things you say and the things you do to them in much the same way that you would. You don't just come up to a kid from out of the blue to punish them for something that occured several hours ago, and you don't chase them into their bedroom carrying a belt. This just makes them frightened and serves no positive purpose whatsoever. A kid howling in the store and making a scene, however, isn't frightened or angry but trying to compete for dominance, and sometimes, not always, a swat is what's needed to get accross the point that he isn't going to gain any respect by making a spectacle. Just take it as a general rule that you don't hit something that isn't intent on doing anything other than finding something to hide under because something reacting to a fight-or-flight impulse is going to do one or the other until the reaction has passed; conditioning against one invites the other.



Point being, the difference between discipline and abuse is usually timing.

 

[turk179]

So many pages and pages of jibberish! So many people using the fun logical argument "Based on my one or two experiences, I believe EVERYONE should do this..."

We all know that this argument is no good, so lets do research into this topic...

First off lets help out those that are on the "Spanking is bad side" seeing as they have offered 0 evidence for their claim.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/103/3/696

The "Guide for Effective Discipline" of the American Academy of Pediatrics states that no spanking should be done at all.

Now, for the counter proof...
Hey look ma, they are doing what we are doing. Offering opinions and not looking at reserach! =)
Now from another source!
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/320/7248/1538/a
Hah, so even when its outlawed there is little decrease in it.

The ball is in your court you anti spanking people. =)

Yes, Lets do research into this. Shall we.
http://www.umext.maine.edu/onlinepubs/htmpubs/4357.htm

http://www.mindpub.com/art089.htm
I have found that there is an equal amount of web sites that are anti spanking and pro spanking. The problem is that the issue is controversial and that there is still much debate about the issue amongst the scientific community. That means that every link you put up, I can put up one that argues that link. We could keep this up all day and all night. There is a good chance that the majority of people here are not even going to look at our links. So to sum this all up, can we get back to the debate please without resorting to calling everyones opinions and experiences jibberish?

 

[Ryan2065]

No. You've basically ignored my posts and seem to have a stronger inclination to color everyone who doesn't hold exactly the same opinions as yourself with the same marker than to participate in any meaningful discussion.

Actually i was responding to your "I didn't know we were here to discuss politics" because I took that to mean you didn't see a difference between "spanking" and "beating."

Quoting who you are responding to is usually a good way to make sure people dont misunderstand you. =)

 

[lilithu]

Quite true. But spankings are not politically correct. Only evil conservative fascists torture their children in such ways. :sarcastic

If you are refering to my post, no where did I say that conservatives were evil. That's your own defensiveness showing. In fact, no where did I make any value judgements as to which approach was "better." I obviously have my personal opinions on the matter, but what I posted was an analysis of the two different approaches. If you believe the analysis to be incorrect, tell me why.

It's rather unbecoming to refuse to engage in dialogue and then make snide, sarcastic comments.

 

[Ryan2065]

Yes, Lets do research into this. Shall we.
http://www.umext.maine.edu/onlinepubs/htmpubs/4357.htm

http://www.mindpub.com/art089.htm
I have found that there is an equal amount of web sites that are anti spanking and pro spanking. The problem is that the issue is controversial and that there is still much debate about the issue amongst the scientific community. That means that every link you put up, I can put up one that argues that link. We could keep this up all day and all night. There is a good chance that the majority of people here are not even going to look at our links. So to sum this all up, can we get back to the debate please without resorting to calling everyones opinions and experiences jibberish?

First off, I'd like to point out that your "sources" talk about studies but don't cite them. I kind of enjoy studies where the findings are talked about instead of just saying "many studies say spanking is bad." The thing is this thread was turning into this..
Post: Spanking is bad
Post: Spanking is good

There was no real way to learn from this post because people were only relating their personal experiences (while sometimes they are good) and they were taking their personal experiences over the studies of experts. Who would you go to for info on raising your child? Some random person you meet off the street or an expert? I understand that a debate can degrade into tons of links and calling in many expert witnesses and what not =P But that would be better than what this debate turned into with sharing of opinions and not using any outside sources to back it up.

 

[turk179]

First off, I'd like to point out that your "sources" talk about studies but don't cite them. I kind of enjoy studies where the findings are talked about instead of just saying "many studies say spanking is bad." The thing is this thread was turning into this..
Post: Spanking is bad
Post: Spanking is good

There was no real way to learn from this post because people were only relating their personal experiences (while sometimes they are good) and they were taking their personal experiences over the studies of experts. Who would you go to for info on raising your child? Some random person you meet off the street or an expert? I understand that a debate can degrade into tons of links and calling in many expert witnesses and what not =P But that would be better than what this debate turned into with sharing of opinions and not using any outside sources to back it up.

All you have to do is type the words "spanking children" in a search bar and you will find a hundred thousand or so links that are even better than the ones that you and I came up with. The point is that the same debate is going on in the studies of experts. And to answer your question, I feel that the experts are the people on RF that have children rather than the people with PHds that don't have any children.

 

[Flappycat]

I feel that the experts are the people on RF that have children rather than the people with PHds that don't have any children.

Can't a person have both?

 

[Ryan2065]

And to answer your question, I feel that the experts are the people on RF that have children rather than the people with PHds that don't have any children.

Good to know where you are coming from. You know, that you would rather disregard someone who spent years studying the behaviour of children because you know someone who says that they raised a good kid. I am not saying that none of you people have raised a good kid, just saying that every parent says that, so its kind of hard to take someones word for it when you have never met the child.

And just to let you all know. Every time you observe your child, your child is in a situation where "someone is looking." Unless if you spy on your child, you will never really know how he is in a situation where no one is looking. This leads me to believe parents are not the best people to go to when you want to know about their kid.

 

[Draka]

Good to know where you are coming from. You know, that you would rather disregard someone who spent years studying the behaviour of children because you know someone who says that they raised a good kid. I am not saying that none of you people have raised a good kid, just saying that every parent says that, so its kind of hard to take someones word for it when you have never met the child.

And just to let you all know. Every time you observe your child, your child is in a situation where "someone is looking." Unless if you spy on your child, you will never really know how he is in a situation where no one is looking. This leads me to believe parents are not the best people to go to when you want to know about their kid.

Ahh, and of course all these "studies" were completely on the up and up and none of the children knew that they were being observed ever huh? Look, you can quote all you want the many studies you want to refer to. Have at it and have fun. But, seriously, as a person who has gone through many college courses on varying psychology classes that has read and even duplicated some of these studies I can tell you that you can manipulate any of the findings, as well as your sample, to get the exact results you are looking for. Psychologists seem to have a tendency of thinking they know more than they do simply because they have a degree. They are self proclaimed experts that magically KNOW how EVERYONE is because of sampling a portion of the population...and every random samplng isn't exactly random if you think about it.

As for "jibberish", the people here are voicing their opinions...and there is NOTHING wrong with opinion in a debate. Opinions are formed through knowledge, experience, and those come with age as well. Just because not everyone here is citing what others say doesn't make their statements any less valid. As a matter of fact I find it refreshing to see that the people here are thinkers who form their own opinions and give their reasoning for them, instead of just citing other people's work all the time and showing no thought of their own.

 

[Flappycat]

Heyyyyyyyyyy, you know, the buttocks are actually a pretty powerful sexual zone. Anyone ever wonder about that? Now, maybe I'm just being odd, but there has got to be a reason that some kids go out of their way to get into trouble. What I want to know is this: how early on can someone develop a taste for masochism?

 

[Aqualung]

Heyyyyyyyyyy, you know, the buttocks are actually a pretty powerful sexual zone. Anyone ever wonder about that? Now, maybe I'm just being odd, but there has got to be a reason that some kids go out of their way to get into trouble. What I want to know is this: how early on can someone develop a taste for masochism?

That's why you use a switch and hit their hands.